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longbridge to worcester foregate street on easements 700473 and 700474

Watershed

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Only if you travel via Worcester - same fare - which in this case would be pointless as the destination is Foregate Street. There is no direct service southbound that stops at any relevant station. To travel via northbound you have to double back via University to XC but that doubleback easement does not mention Parkway. There may be historical reasons for that but that's the way it is.
I think you are rather confused.

Longbridge-Bromsgrove-Worcestershire Parkway-Worcester is, in general, a permitted route because it can be traced on Routeing Guide map BI without doubling back through any station.

The fact there are no train services under the current timetable which call at both Bromsgrove and Worcestershire Parkway doesn't change the fact it's a permitted route. If such a service were introduced then you would be perfectly entitled to use the ticket that way.

Let's say that the easement didn't exist - you could still rely on the permitted route to use the ticket on the 'usable' part of its validity, for example between Longbridge and Bromsgrove, or Worcestershire Parkway and Worcester. You could also combine a Longbridge-Worcester ticket with a Birmingham-Longbridge season ticket and then use that combination to travel from Birmingham to Worcestershire Parkway.

Of course the easement does exist, allowing Longbridge-Worcester, in general, to doubleback via Birmingham New Street by virtue of easements 701169 and 701171. The easement does not need to mention Worcestershire Parkway because it applies regardless of how you proceed to Worcester - whether that's via Droitwich or via Worcestershire Parkway.

The easement extends the validity of all permitted routes and therefore makes Longbridge-Worcester via New Street and Worcestershire Parkway a valid route.

If it was intended only to apply to journeys via Droitwich, it would need to say so. The easement wouldn't make much sense if so, since Droitwich trains all stop at Bromsgrove, so doubling back via Birmingham is pointless. The easement is also set by XC so as the OP points out, it is clearly intended to be valid on their services.
 
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Swedenorer

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Let's say that the easement didn't exist - you could still rely on the permitted route to use the ticket on the 'usable' part of its validity, for example between Longbridge and Bromsgrove, or Worcestershire Parkway and Worcester. You could also combine a Longbridge-Worcester ticket with a Birmingham-Longbridge season ticket and then use that combination to travel from Birmingham to Worcestershire Parkway.
i'm not confused at all it just being realistic. The OP wanted to know if the route he wanted was permitted by his £7.20 fare. No retailer I have tried including the Forum site will sell a ticket with an itinerary that includes University and Parkway as one fare. To take your above point it is possible to do what he wants with splits at about twice the price but that was not what he asked. (It won't sell a ticket that allows just the permitted doubleback via University either which begs another question.)
 

Watershed

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i'm not confused at all it just being realistic.
Which part of my analysis do you disagree with? You have made repeated references to the easement not referring to Worcestershire Parkway; do you now agree that this is irrelevant?

The OP wanted to know if the route he wanted was permitted by his £7.20 fare. No retailer I have tried including the Forum site will sell a ticket with an itinerary that includes University and Parkway as one fare. To take your above point it is possible to do what he wants with splits at about twice the price but that was not what he asked. (It won't sell a ticket that allows just the permitted doubleback via University either which begs another question.)
The reason why retailers are unwilling to offer itineraries via Birmingham is explained in posts 21-24 above.

The absence of itineraries does not mean that it is invalid; there are numerous valid routes that journey planners don't offer due to limitations in the industry data, discrepancies between the way that easements are described in the human text and the electronic data, and differences between the public Routeing Guide and the rules that journey planners are required to follow.

The easement is very clear that travel is permitted via Birmingham and no itinerary is necessary to be able to show staff the easement text if queried. The validity of Worcestershire Parkway as a route to Worcester is not controversial.
 

Fawkes Cat

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Which part of my analysis do you disagree with? You have made repeated references to the easement not referring to Worcestershire Parkway; do you now agree that this is irrelevant?


The reason why retailers are unwilling to offer itineraries via Birmingham is explained in posts 21-24 above.

The absence of itineraries does not mean that it is invalid; there are numerous valid routes that journey planners don't offer due to limitations in the industry data, discrepancies between the way that easements are described in the human text and the electronic data, and differences between the public Routeing Guide and the rules that journey planners are required to follow.

The easement is very clear that travel is permitted via Birmingham and no itinerary is necessary to be able to show staff the easement text if queried. The validity of Worcestershire Parkway as a route to Worcester is not controversial.
Will following the advice given in this thread let the OP make their journey without any hassle from railway staff?
 

Swedenorer

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That it seems to me is the point.

People on this forum have said time and time again that to travel without an itinerary for a journey enabled by easements - (one will be generated by the splits I have found but none for one fare) leaves you exposed. Even with an itinerary allowed by an easement. as the Hinchley Wood Walking Sophie thread shows, you can be faced at the gateline with complete disbelief. The OP asked the operator directly and frontline staff before coming here and got no reliable answer.

I happen to agree broadly that it could at least be argued as a permitted route but would I advise anybody to try their luck with the £7.20 Longbridge Worcester single via University and Parkway without an itinerary? No I don't think I would - in the real world.

If the retail systems can't handle the industry data as has been mentioned above then neither of them is fit for purpose.

(For example if you need this Easememt "700036 Customers travelling from Warblington, Emsworth, Southbourne, Nutbourne, Bosham, Fishbourne and Chichester to Pulborough and beyond, may travel via Ford" apparently to pass some fares checks one does wonder just what garbage is grinding away in the background.)
 
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Shrewbly

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Interestingly, the WMR ticket site will produce a valid Longbridge to Worcester itinerary via New Street and Worcestershire Parkway for this Sunday evening (18:53 from Longbridge) using the £7.30 single fare. However the Cross-country element of the journey today is a rail replacement bus, so presumably some alternative ticket validation has run in the background.
 

Watershed

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Will following the advice given in this thread let the OP make their journey without any hassle from railway staff?
In my experience, given the lack of onboard checks on WMR and XC Turbostar services, the likelihood of it even coming up is slim. If the OP did have their ticket checked en-route and in the unlikely event of this resulting in the ticket being queried, I would suggest that reference to the easement would render it a fairly straightforward conversation.

If the OP wants an itinerary then splitting at Northfield, at a slightly higher cost, will achieve that.

The OP created this thread to ask what their options are, and various members have queried whether travelling via Birmingham and Worcestershire Parkway is permitted. The answer is clearly that it is. So in that sense I think we have helped answer their questions in an entirely practical sense.

A route via New Street and Parkway doesn't involve passing through any gatelines and even once the barriers are installed at the two Worcester stations, there will be no difficulty using a ticket to Worcester to exit or enter. I agree that if a gateline were required, or the OP intended to break their journey in Birmingham for example, it would be much more of a salient issue.


That it seems to me is the point.

People on this forum have said time and time again that to travel without an itinerary for a journey enabled by easements - (one will be generated by the splits I have found but none for one fare) leaves you exposed. Even with an itinerary allowed by an easement. as the Hinchley Wood Walking Sophie thread shows, you can be faced at the gateline with complete disbelief. The OP asked the operator directly and frontline staff before coming here and got no reliable answer.

I happen to agree broadly that it could at least be argued as a permitted route but would I advise anybody to try their luck with the £7.20 Longbridge Worcester single via University and Parkway without an itinerary? No I don't think I would - in the real world.

If the retail systems can't handle the industry data as has been mentioned above then neither of them is fit for purpose.

(For example if you need this Easememt "700036 Customers travelling from Warblington, Emsworth, Southbourne, Nutbourne, Bosham, Fishbourne and Chichester to Pulborough and beyond, may travel via Ford" apparently to pass some fares checks one does wonder just what garbage is grinding away in the background.)
I'd be interested if you can quote the post(s) you are referring to here. I don't think anyone disagrees that travelling in accordance with an itinerary is ideal on a potentially contentious route, but equally a lack of an itinerary doesn't mean a route can't be valid or shouldn't be attempted.

The difficulty getting an itinerary for this journey arises from discrepancies between the published rules or data, and the rules/data journey planners are required to use. I don't think that the industry data feeds etc. are fundamentally unfit for purpose.

I agree the system is incredibly complex and inaccessible to the average person, and goes wrong far more often than it should. But the root cause of the above discrepancies is the lack of quality control and testing to verify that easements work as intended, and in the way the customer facing description says.

The easement text should simply be automatically generated from the electronic data, much in the way that the eNRG browser decodes the data into a human readable format. That way any anomalies would be picked up more quickly.

The 'garbage' data you refer to is often a case of historical fares anomalies being exposed by modern systems, for example where BR accidentally (or otherwise) priced a shorter journey at a higher price than a longer journey. It can also arise where differing fare types are available for different journeys, making the 'fares check' (used to identify valid Routeing Points) difficult to accurately conduct.

Interestingly, the WMR ticket site will produce a valid Longbridge to Worcester itinerary via New Street and Worcestershire Parkway for this Sunday evening (18:53 from Longbridge) using the £7.30 single fare. However the Cross-country element of the journey today is a rail replacement bus, so presumably some alternative ticket validation has run in the background.
This will be because replacement buses do not have any mileage or distance associated with them in journey planners, so the journey overall is deemed to be shorter than (or within 3 miles of) the shortest route and thus automatically permitted.
 

yorkie

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Interestingly, the WMR ticket site will produce a valid Longbridge to Worcester itinerary via New Street and Worcestershire Parkway for this Sunday evening (18:53 from Longbridge) using the £7.30 single fare. However the Cross-country element of the journey today is a rail replacement bus, so presumably some alternative ticket validation has run in the background.
A bus at the start or end of the journey is excluded from the routeing check.
 

MrJeeves

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what’s interesting to me is that it’s a crosscountry easement. i thought easements were made by national rail, national rail told me this one was made by WMR, so i’m kinda flabbergasted at that.
The creator information encoded the in the data is often garbage. It will point to operators which haven't existed for years, or have never existed at all, so I'd take it with a pinch of salt.

I expect the team who makes these can type whatever they want in there with no validation.

I understand RDG and TOCs can both create easements, but RDG will typically only do so when the TOCs agree they can. And both will often do them wrong as they have no way to test them before adding them to the data!

In any case, I think it's quite unlikely that OP would have an issue with this ticket anyway, particularly if they simply refer to the text version (which is the version meant to be used by passengers!) if any issue did arise. I know when I made use of some particularly beneficial easements for added validity on a season ticket, I kept a link to the list of easements from RDG somewhere in my notes so I could show them to staff if questioned.
 

bcarmicle

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With the changes to NRCoT, does how easements are interpreted matter, if no journey planner will validate the route? If a passenger relies on an easement which is only valid via the Routeing Guide but not allowed by any journey planner, and meets Revenue teams, then presumably their only legal challenge is under judicial review/consumer rights as there is no longer an explicit allowance of routes permitted by the Routeing Guide.
 

Watershed

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With the changes to NRCoT, does how easements are interpreted matter, if no journey planner will validate the route? If a passenger relies on an easement which is only valid via the Routeing Guide but not allowed by any journey planner, and meets Revenue teams, then presumably their only legal challenge is under judicial review/consumer rights as there is no longer an explicit allowance of routes permitted by the Routeing Guide.
The fact that the Routeing Guide is still referred to in the Information box underneath the routes section makes it pretty clear it is still a contractual document.

Yes, we are told at the start of the NRCoT that "Information" boxes are explanatory only and non-contractual, but if they were truly non-contractual then what would be the point of including them - for example in condition 9.2.1, 9.5.1 and condition 29.1.

The industry relies on the boxes for these conditions to have their intended effect - especially condition 29.1 the box purports to give a completely different definition to "becomes valid" to the obvious meaning, and the one used in condition 9 for example!

It wouldn't really be sustainable to rely on a box in condition 29 and yet say a box is non-contractual in condition 13. Now the industry is known for trying to have its cake and eating it, but this would be some truly massive cakeism.
 

bcarmicle

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I don't entirely disagree, but I think there is a difference between "the Routeing Guide clearly permits it and the NRCoT explicitly allows Routeing Guide routes" on an appeal, and "the Roueting Guide clearly permits it, but I need to rely on a contractual provision that the NRCoT denies is one", and the OP should be made aware of that difference.
 

Swedenorer

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If it says they are non contractual they will argue that they are non contractual. Anyway the two at the bottom of page 12 could be seen to be contradictory anyway. But I see the point as a number of the other boxes contain matter that should more properly be numbered clauses and others that really could mislead people. The last one on page 16 promising to provide an enjoyable journey should be brought to the attention of XC if it is indeed contractual.
 

keyy729

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I agree that if a gateline were required, or the OP intended to break their journey in Birmingham for example, it would be much more of a salient issue.

i actually went to birmingham new street the other day on a longbridge to worcester foregate street ticket (class 196) and the gateline let me through by just scanning my ticket, no problems, no need to speak to anyone.

thank you all for discussing this - it gives me a bit more confidence. surely showing them the easement guide alone should be enough, but if not, i have the eRNG
 

Watershed

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I don't entirely disagree, but I think there is a difference between "the Routeing Guide clearly permits it and the NRCoT explicitly allows Routeing Guide routes" on an appeal, and "the Roueting Guide clearly permits it, but I need to rely on a contractual provision that the NRCoT denies is one", and the OP should be made aware of that difference.
In fairness, I don't think any TOC is going to argue that the Routeing Guide is not the method used to determine valid routes.
 

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