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Introduction of European Entry-Exit Scheme (EES)

The exile

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This is basically it. The idea was something like this:

- if needed, register on the EES system. This could be done via an app, via a kiosk, etc. They were supposed to be located away from the first line controls, so that passengers could register in peace.

- once registered, travellers would proceed to the first line controls. The biometric data would be checked, either via a photograph or fingerprints, while the EES records would be checked.

The first line control could be manual checks or e-gates, but the idea was to funnel as many people as possible through the e-gates. The UK is the textbook example here: most people go through them with no problems at all.
Indeed - the data that is needed should be being collected at “normal” passport control. The pre-registration of face and fingerprints only makes sense at all to do 2 things:

1. Link the holder to the passport more strongly than a quick photo check alone does.

2. Potentially inform the applicant that there’s no point in proceeding as they won’t get in.

Repetition of the registration process is potentially counterproductive to 1 as it risks overwriting data and making passport misuse easier.
 
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Reliablebeam

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I am sorry but this is patently laughable and screams of someone unhappy that project fear is actually project reality.

Europe has the right to protect its borders against non-EU nationals like Brits.

The system applies to all third country nationals. Americans, Australians, Canadians etc. etc. It doesn't just pick on little Englanders. You can't retain the benefits of a club unless you're a member at the end of the day.

On the differences, yes, each country has implemented it in its own way. It one of the things that makes the EU a bit of a disaster but also totally workable. Rules and regulations can be molded and adapted locally - officially or semi-officially. Delays happen and are just accepted. Differences will iron out over time, no doubt.

The old system was stuck in the past and not fit for purpose. Something had to change and digitization is the answer as it very quickly allows an officer to check someone's right to enter the Schengen zone and the time spent in it.
I think you'll find I am not a 'little Englander' and I actually work in a field that has been impacted badly by Brexit! I'm being a realist, which is given the number of journeys between the UK and 'Schengen land' this system just doesn't work. I am a bit surprised given the current debates about the EU and its direction of travel they think the right thing to do is cause lots of nuisances to travellers (it doesn't exactly scream a Europe that's open for business) - but on that point we seem to disagree

I'm not English btw
 
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zero

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2. Potentially inform the applicant that there’s no point in proceeding as they won’t get in.
That's what ETIAS is for - to tell rejects not to bother travelling at all unless they want to attempt getting a full visa
 

TravelDream

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- if needed, register on the EES system. This could be done via an app, via a kiosk, etc. They were supposed to be located away from the first line controls, so that passengers could register in peace.
Yes. Anyone who has been to China knows it works well there.

But Chinese airports are cathedrals and all the major airports (both Beijings, Shanghai Pudong, Guangzhou, Shenzhen, Xian, Chengdu etc etc.) have vast amounts of space to put terminals for people to register far from the passport control desks.

Many of these airports built for expected passenger numbers in 2050 and even beyond - China is a country that builds for the future after all.

Unfortunately, what has happened is that some countries have created a truly idiotic implementation where the kiosks are being used for border control as well as EES registration. It makes zero sense, as it means chaos with people having problems with registration being mixed up with people who simply need to get through border control.
On top of this, many airports have dramatically reduced staffing levels. It's not uncommon to see as few as two people working on manual controls, meaning huge queues.

But this is the reality in Europe. We tend to have crappy infrastructure which is just good enough (or perhaps was good enough in 1994).

Many airports, most in fact, have little space.

And many airports have next to no staff and room as they have so few non-Schengen flights. What else could you expect of a small Polish regional airport which has five non-Schengen flights per week and the non-Schengen facilities consists of a small room with a couple of booths and a snake queue with enough room for about 50 passengers?

I think you'll find I am not a 'little Englander' and I actually work in a field that has been impacted badly by Brexit! I'm being a realist, which is given the number of journeys between the UK and 'Schengen land' this system just doesn't work. I am a bit surprised given the current debates about the EU and it's direction of travel they think the right thing to do is cause lots of nuisances to travellers - but on that point we seem to disagree

I'm not English btw

Apologies.

Though the 'punishing us for Brexit' shtick is total nonsense. The EU has actually been incredibly helpful and generous to us since Brexit.

We have to accept we are a third party. We are little different to American, Nigerian, Indian, Bolivian, Moldovan, Canadian citizens. That is how we should be treated.

We also seem to have this misguided idea Spain or Greece 'need' British tourists. They do to an extent, but anyone who has been to Majorca or Barcelona or Santorini know they are awash with tourists. Overrun in many places. I think they'd actually prefer fewer.
And even if we presume Spain does need us, Romania, Sweden, Denmark and France certainly don't.
 

CC 72100

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Positive experience at Madrid (MAD) at terminal 4S over the last week, both on arrival and departure.

On arrival plenty of registration machines available, I explained I had already registered and was sent direct to the passport machines where I had the pick of 10 empty machines; all very quick.

On departure everyone was sent via the registration machines (which were in plentiful supply), put my passport in and it confirmed (as I knew) that I was already in the system. Then to the e-gates (for non-EU) and through instantly whereas there was a 10 minute or so queue for EU passport holders.

A technical question; once 'in the system', is there any reason why EU and non-EU citizens flying out of Schengen can't use the same set of e-gates? Are the EES for non-EU citizens set up differently?
 

The exile

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Positive experience at Madrid (MAD) at terminal 4S over the last week, both on arrival and departure.

On arrival plenty of registration machines available, I explained I had already registered and was sent direct to the passport machines where I had the pick of 10 empty machines; all very quick.

On departure everyone was sent via the registration machines (which were in plentiful supply), put my passport in and it confirmed (as I knew) that I was already in the system. Then to the e-gates (for non-EU) and through instantly whereas there was a 10 minute or so queue for EU passport holders.

A technical question; once 'in the system', is there any reason why EU and non-EU citizens flying out of Schengen can't use the same set of e-gates? Are the EES for non-EU citizens set up differently?
Presumably one lot won’t be linked to the database (ie the Schengen one( whereas the Non-Schengen one will require fingerprint etc registration, which inner-Schengen people won’t necessarily have.
Come to think of it, an inner-Schengen one requires no passport check at all (other than ID check at boarding)
 
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eoff

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A technical question; once 'in the system', is there any reason why EU and non-EU citizens flying out of Schengen can't use the same set of e-gates? Are the EES for non-EU citizens set up differently?
Presumably because not all e-gates at a particular location can contact the EES system and record data or do checks.
 

Barnsley

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Just on my way home from Dusseldorf, a few registration machines in security, which I used but didn’t see anyone else using them, then straight to passport desk where passport was scanned and stamped, no more than 2 mins for the lot
 

Hoofhearted

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Can I just bring this up for general discussion. I'm aware that significant delays are occurring at airports in EU countries when UK nationals are arriving/departing an EU country. Does this also occur when crossing a border by train? And could the delay be so severe that the train could leave without you? I mention this because I'm considering taking the train from Istanbul to Bucharest/Sofia in late summer, and I note that on the Turkey/Bulgaria border you have to physically leave the train to have your passport checked and stamped. Any advice would be most welcome, even in relation to airports and road border crossings. Thanks.
 

LucyP

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No it doesn't. You remain on the train for the checks when entering Bulgaria. You only have to get off for the Turkish passport control. Turkey is not in the EU and do the EU checks are not required for Turkey. There are also far less passengers present at the same time to be checked than at a busy holiday EU airport.
 

Spamcan81

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But isn't this a big part of the problem, that individual countries are basically able to choose how they want to implement this system? I've had completely different experiences entering Spain or France versus the unpleasant, deliberate problems and aggravation going into the Sweden and Denmark which are patently punishment of British passport holders for Brexit. There's no standardisation, at all.
I’m flying into Stockholm in a few weeks time. Care to share your experiences?
 

BAFRA77

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Will be flying into Oslo Gardermoen from the UK two weeks today (hopefully at this time exactly a fortnight from now - I 'll be looking at my first pint in Bohemen) - will report back with findings after getting through Passkontroll
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I think you'll find I am not a 'little Englander' and I actually work in a field that has been impacted badly by Brexit! I'm being a realist, which is given the number of journeys between the UK and 'Schengen land' this system just doesn't work. I am a bit surprised given the current debates about the EU and its direction of travel they think the right thing to do is cause lots of nuisances to travellers (it doesn't exactly scream a Europe that's open for business) - but on that point we seem to disagree
During the Brexit negotiations the EU offered several options better than the "hard" third-country Brexit we demanded (eg for artistic performers), all of which we rejected.
The killer red line on our side was the demand that the ECJ would not have any part to play in the relationship, which excluded (among many other things) simpler border arrangements.
 

Tetchytyke

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I'm being a realist, which is given the number of journeys between the UK and 'Schengen land' this system just doesn't work. I am a bit surprised given the current debates about the EU and its direction of travel they think the right thing to do is cause lots of nuisances to travellers

My experience is that the delays are caused by staffing issues, not by EES itself. My recent travel to Alsace is the perfect example: I arrived at Basel-Mulhouse on a late flight from London and was through passport control in under five minutes, including registration. Plenty of desks were open and registration was done at the passport desk, not at a kiosk. Two flights from Turkey and a flight from Albania had arrived within the hour before mine.

My colleagues arrived next morning and there were two desks open. It took them two hours to get through passport control.

Same airport, same equipment. The only difference was that the French and Swiss had plenty of border staff when I arrived, and they didn't when my colleagues arrived.

I am therefore very sceptical about airports where there are long delays, and can't help but wonder whether there is an underlying funding dispute between airports and the authorities. A good way of the border police to get some more money from airports is to jam up those airports with delayed passengers.

As for the wider issues, the UK wanted to be treated as a third country and so they're being treated as a third country. The EU has taken back control of its borders.
 

The exile

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I am therefore very sceptical about airports where there are long delays, and can't help but wonder whether there is an underlying funding dispute between airports and the authorities. A good way of the border police to get some more money from airports is to jam up those airports with delayed passengers.
I’m surprised it’s not done by precept. “10,000 non-Schengen passengers between 9am and midday? That requires x number of staff at y€ per hour -payment in advance or the flights can’t land.”
 

Reliablebeam

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I’m flying into Stockholm in a few weeks time. Care to share your experiences?
Sorry I've been away (no thanks to BA) - there's a whole thread on it here - most of it still holds. Sweden is one of the countries you can actually use the 'Travel to Europe' app, although it's unclear to me whether it actually makes the process any easier. I think the only thing it does do is they can see your airline tickets which obviates one of their questions. I keep my answers polite but short and basic - some of my colleagues have actually been forced to show emails with contacts in Sweden etc.

 

STINT47

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Eurostar from Amsterdsm was horrendous this afternoon.

Four people registering every passenger with fingerprints and photos. The result was that from joint the queue to check in it took an hour and a half to get through and our departure is going to be 45 minuets late.

if this continues then I will be flying from Schipol until things improve as my experience today is worse than any I've ever had in an airport.

To cap it all Eurostar sent an email saying that my train would arrive half an hour later in London due to engineering work. I smell some bull as it's only the Amsterdam trains that have this "work" impacting their timings and it will stop them having to pay any compensation for the delay.
 

popeter45

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To cap it all Eurostar sent an email saying that my train would arrive half an hour later in London due to engineering work. I smell some bull as it's only the Amsterdam trains that have this "work" impacting their timings and it will stop them having to pay any compensation for the delay.
website states
Due to EU border control procedures at Amsterdam Centraal, your train is delayed. We're very sorry for the disruption to your trip.
so don’t think they can avoid compensation but weirdly they show the train arriving into London 15 minutes early, assuming that’s got to be a time conversion typo
 

STINT47

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website states

so don’t think they can avoid compensation but weirdly they show the train arriving into London 15 minutes early, assuming that’s got to be a time conversion typo
It's definitely been retimed. Originally due into London at15:57 and now showing as 16:27 on the website.
 
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speedy1

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Passengers, railway operators, airlines etc are all victims. It's easy to be angry at Eurostar, Easyjet, Ryanair etc, but the EU and governments have done a terrible roll-out of EES.

I'm not sure exactly who's to blame, but it's all or some of: the EU, governments, and the organisation in each country responsible for border security.

I agree with the aims of the project but the roll-out seems to be a disaster.
 

dorsetdesiro

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...the roll-out seems to be a disaster.

Yes, this is not helped by the EU Commission being dismissive and insisting everything is fine, and tone deaf to it all.

The EES obviously wasn't well thought out. It should have been rolled out in say 5 phases over 5 years, with a group of countries each year starting with more efficient Northern countries with the unhurried Mediterranean countries last.

Any system issues could be ironed out earlier only affecting the countries using it without causing mass disruption to the whole Schengen area. By the time the EES comes round to Greece, Italy etc, it should be more reliable and stable to run.

If I'm correct, some countries seem to be using kiosks of different makes to others, thus likely software/hardware/speed issues, then this should be all of one make across the bloc ensuring reliability and smoother ecosystem when releasing updates etc.

Also, each Schengen country should be mandated to accept the EES app which it is only Sweden & Portugal at the moment which is frankly ridiculous.
 

Spamcan81

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Sorry I've been away (no thanks to BA) - there's a whole thread on it here - most of it still holds. Sweden is one of the countries you can actually use the 'Travel to Europe' app, although it's unclear to me whether it actually makes the process any easier. I think the only thing it does do is they can see your airline tickets which obviates one of their questions. I keep my answers polite but short and basic - some of my colleagues have actually been forced to show emails with contacts in Sweden etc.

Thanks for the reply. I found the app some days ago after I’d posted so I will make use of that in the hope it simplify things. If I do get asked for an email with Swedish contacts, I have some from the Swedish Air Force.
 

The exile

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Yes, this is not helped by the EU Commission being dismissive and insisting everything is fine, and tone deaf to it all.

The EES obviously wasn't well thought out. It should have been rolled out in say 5 phases over 5 years, with a group of countries each year starting with more efficient Northern countries with the unhurried Mediterranean countries last.

Any system issues could be ironed out earlier only affecting the countries using it without causing mass disruption to the whole Schengen area. By the time the EES comes round to Greece, Italy etc, it should be more reliable and stable to run.

If I'm correct, some countries seem to be using kiosks of different makes to others, thus likely software/hardware/speed issues, then this should be all of one make across the bloc ensuring reliability and smoother ecosystem when releasing updates etc.

Also, each Schengen country should be mandated to accept the EES app which it is only Sweden & Portugal at the moment which is frankly ridiculous.
Would suggest that what they should have done was have a pre-launch phase of harvesting and registering the initial fingerprint and face data (which then, once collected, should not normally need to be re done for three (?) years.
Do that for an entire year with “voluntary” booths in airport departure lounges - where they have a captive audience with time on their hands- and extend the validity period of that data by 12 months. At full launch day you would then have a large quantity of people (the regular travellers) already on the system, who could then proceed through the actual border ID check without further ado (assuming they were who they claimed to be!)
 

Segedunum

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Berlin Airport took 45 minutes to get through this evening on account of having a grand total of three desks open. Bizarrely I was given a stamp as well.

The queue promptly doubled in size while I was in it, so those at the back will have had quite a wait. Still yet to find an airport that's able to cope with this - as a Thursday at 10pm isn't exactly the busiest you're going to get.
 

eoff

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The Which? magazine is pointing out a list of airports as the worst for delays...

The 11 worst airports for EES queues​

  • Alicante
  • Amsterdam Schiphol
  • Berlin
  • Krakow
  • Lisbon
  • Malaga
  • Milan Bergamo
  • Milan Linate
  • Palma de Mallorca
  • Paris Beauvais
  • Tenerife South
 

scarby

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The Which? magazine is pointing out a list of airports as the worst for delays...

Which? shouldn’t be normalising this by advising the customer to take ridiculously inconvenient measures just to catch a flight.

The onus is all on the service provider to fix the issue, not the customer.
 

chrisjo

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The onus is all on the service provider to fix the issue, not the customer.
Of course. But surely you don't just ignore a problem that you know is likely to cause you considerable inconvenience because it's not your job to fix it. You take all possible steps to mitigate it.
 

The exile

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Which? shouldn’t be normalising this by advising the customer to take ridiculously inconvenient measures just to catch a flight.

The onus is all on the service provider to fix the issue, not the customer.
That surely applies to some extent to everything reviewed by Which.
 

scarby

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Of course. But surely you don't just ignore a problem that you know is likely to cause you considerable inconvenience because it's not your job to fix it. You take all possible steps to mitigate it.
Indeed, but relationships are a two-way street.

Where are the “all possible steps” on the part of the European Commission?

If they said “We are postponing the EES system for a while but please still turn up in good time to the airport” then we might be getting somewhere.
 

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