Electric bikes - such a missed opportunity

johncrossley said:

Look at the countries that have the highest cycling rates. Those are Netherlands and Denmark, and they are flat. The Netherlands also has the best cycling infrastructure, with Denmark second best. In Belgium there is a lot of cycling and generally good infrastructure in the flat north but very little infrastructure and cycling in the hilly south. Although the flat north is mostly Dutch speaking and the hilly south mostly French speaking, so a cynic might put it down to culture rather than terrain.

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Or look in this country at say Cambridge V Sheffield!

Yeah terrain possibly plays a part. Hills do get easier I think but are still more challenging than on flat terrain and e bikes are good for hills.

johncrossley said:

One of the main excuses for not cycling and for local authorities not to invest in cycling infrastructure used to be hilly terrain. Other things that encourage cycling in the Netherlands also apply in much of the UK. For example, a mild climate and high density population. So once you remove the hills argument, then we should, in theory, be more or less on a par with the Netherlands.

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Sorry, but the post misses a key fact of history, it is not about cycling up hills, post-WW2, as prosperity rose in Holland, and for much of Europe, and mass car-ownership on the rise, accidents between pedestrians cyclists and motor vehicles were escalating, a milestone in Holland being the "Stop the child murder" campaign in response to road accidents involving children.
The campaign and the ever-pragmatic Dutch addressed the root cause, accidents arise from the conflict between the motor vehicle and the vulnerable sharing the same road space. the Dutch set about a safe environment by segregating motor vehicles from cyclists and pedestrians.
Britain witnessed mass car-ownership and rising accidents among the vulnerable, but the response was minimal, no segregation of road space and little motivation to address the accident issue, after all why be a cyclist or a pedestrian "in poverty" when you should be aspiring to drive a nice car?

E27007 said:

Sorry, but the post misses a key fact of history, it is not about cycling up hills, post-WW2, as prosperity rose in Holland, and for much of Europe, and mass car-ownership on the rise, accidents between pedestrians cyclists and motor vehicles were escalating, a milestone in Holland being the "Stop the child murder" campaign in response to road accidents involving children.
The campaign and the ever-pragmatic Dutch addressed the root cause, accidents arise from the conflict between the motor vehicle and the vulnerable sharing the same road space. the Dutch set about a safe environment by segregating motor vehicles from cyclists and pedestrians.
Britain witnessed mass car-ownership and rising accidents among the vulnerable, but the response was minimal, no segregation of road space and little motivation to address the accident issue, after all why be a cyclist or a pedestrian "in poverty" when you should be aspiring to drive a nice car?

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Absolutely. It is regularly cited that post war between a quarter and third of all road journeys were by bike in the UK (and this was in the days before good bike gearing). But the car became king and the UK government didn’t even bother to produce a dedicated cycle infrastructure design guidance document until 2008. It’s only been since it was updated as LTN 1/20 in 2020 that’s it adopted a truly European style of infrastructure design.

If we want to see adoption of cycling by the masses developing safe infrastructure for the masses is the key. Blaming topography is a bit of a red herring.

Noddy said:

Blaming topography is a bit of a red herring.

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So why are the leading cycling countries flat? Is it just a coincidence? Favourable topography doesn't guarantee high bike usage (see most flat areas of England) but it seems to be a requirement.

johncrossley said:

So why are the leading cycling countries flat? Is it just a coincidence? Favourable topography doesn't guarantee high bike usage (see most flat areas of England) but it seems to be a requirement.

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Correlation is not causation. Dutch cities like Maastricht and Arnhem are just as hilly as many UK towns and cities. Likewise Bristol is very hilly but more folk there cycle because there has been some investment in safe cycle lanes. Not enough IMO, but enough to begin to make a bit of a difference. The key point is you have to make it safe to attract the masses.

Noddy said:

Correlation is not causation. Dutch cities like Maastricht and Arnhem are just as hilly as many UK towns and cities.

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It would be interesting to see if cycling rates in Arnhem (for example) are lower than the national average. The traditional single gear Dutch bike is unsuitable for steep hills. Maybe cycling is more popular in the flatter areas of town.

johncrossley said:

It would be interesting to see if cycling rates in Arnhem (for example) are lower than the national average. The traditional single gear Dutch bike is unsuitable for steep hills. Maybe cycling is more popular in the flatter areas of town.

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Most Dutch commuter bikes have gears these days. They’re typically the internal hub ones so might not be apparent. You also want gears for dealing with head and tail winds or bridges which the Netherlands has aplenty.

CaptainHaddock said:

Not so, you're forgetting that even experienced cyclists, as they get older, become a little lazier and more unfit, at which point an electric bike becomes and increasingly attractive option.

Up until a few years ago I used to enjoy a 50 mile bike ride most Saturdays, but when I reached my fifties it become less fun and more of an ordeal, so when I discovered electric bikes it gave me a new lease of life. As the OP says you still need to pedal but it's great to have the additional power as an option to get you up the steep hills.

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I don't consider myself lazy, but, just before the pandemic I was about to give up cycling, because my dodgy heart was struggling. After the first lockdown ended I bought an e-bike and it is one of the best things I have ever done.

johncrossley said:

So why are the leading cycling countries flat? Is it just a coincidence? Favourable topography doesn't guarantee high bike usage (see most flat areas of England) but it seems to be a requirement.

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Egg Centric said:

Or look in this country at say Cambridge V Sheffield!

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I have been cycling in Cambridge for 60 years. The most important reason why lots of people in Cambridge cycle is that it is the quickest and easiest way to make lots of local journeys. Make cycling quicker and easier than getting in the car and people will cycle.

When car ownership increased in the 1960s and 1970s, people in Cambridge still cycled on local journeys, because Cambridge never adapted its road network for cars, apart from the east-west route from Newmarket Road to Madingley Road. The most important geographical feature is not the topography, it is the River Cam. Cars only have 5 bridges to cross the river, 2 of which are not much use, but cyclists now have 8 more bridges to choose from. For many local journeys, cyclists have more direct route options than cars. Furthermore, parking a car in Cambridge has rarely been made easy, apart from the Grafton Centre and the retail parks on Newmarket Road.

Back in the 1960s and 1970s the relatively flat terrain helped cycling, because most people in Cambridge could ride a bike with only one gear, which was forwards. Sturmey Archer three speed gears were a luxury, and very few people had Derailleur gears. But that hasn't applied since the 1980s when Shimano gears took over the mass cycle market.

Various local policies since then have helped cycling to retain its predominant position. In the early days these were more by accident than design, including the proliferation of traffic lights, both at junctions and pedestrian crossings, closing of rat runs and traffic calming measures. Cambridge had low traffic neighbourhoods before they were given a name. Even the cycleway next to the guided busway only came as an afterthought. These all further increased cycling's advantage compared to the car.

The first big scheme for cyclists was probably the Carter Bridge over the railway at the north end of the main station, opened in 1989. Since then there has been lots of deliberate local policies to promote cycling, and cycling continues to be the quickest and easiest way to get around Cambridge. It is increasingly becoming the quickest and easiest way to get between Cambridge and surrounding villages too.

The biggest downside for cycling in Cambridge is probably security, having somewhere safe and secure both at home and at journey destinations. This is of magnified importance for e-bikes because of their higher cost.

Noddy said:

Correlation is not causation. Dutch cities like Maastricht and Arnhem are just as hilly as many UK towns and cities. Likewise Bristol is very hilly but more folk there cycle because there has been some investment in safe cycle lanes. Not enough IMO, but enough to begin to make a bit of a difference. The key point is you have to make it safe to attract the masses.

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Though Milton Keynes does that and cycling levels aren't as high as you might think. Though I suppose there's the perceived personal safety issue from the way the Redways are isolated from the roads in most cases, this is less the case in the Netherlands where in urban settings it's usually more a case of the cycle path running directly alongside the road.

Noddy said:

investment in safe cycle lanes.

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Bletchleyite said:

Though Milton Keynes does that and cycling levels aren't as high as you might think. Though I suppose there's the perceived personal safety issue from the way the Redways are isolated from the roads in most cases, this is less the case in the Netherlands where in urban settings it's usually more a case of the cycle path running directly alongside the road.

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Indeed. While avoiding interaction with vehicles needs to be one of the major considerations when designing cycling infrastructure it’s not the only thing that needs to be considered to make a commuter or other user feel safe. Dark and dingy underpasses and subways (for example) are not conducive to a safe experience.

On the specific case of Milton Keynes it is interesting but one thing to point out is that it was largely designed and planned as a town/city specifically for the car; how much lower would cycling be if there were no cycling redways or other infrastructure at all?

You need staffed parking in town centres where you can't take a bike out without the parking ticket. Dutch bike parking sometimes has electric bike charging.

Bike insurance is much better in the Netherlands. It pays out even if the bike isn't locked to a physical object. Most of the time Dutch cyclists only lock the rear wheel.

johncrossley said:

You need staffed parking in town centres where you can't take a bike out without the parking ticket. Dutch bike parking sometimes has electric bike charging.

Bike insurance is much better in the Netherlands. It pays out even if the bike isn't locked to a physical object. Most of the time Dutch cyclists only lock the rear wheel.

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I certainly would like to see that at major stations and shopping centres. I would be willing to pay to use it, though perhaps not quite as much as the outrageous rates charged for most station parking. A fiver a day or two quid for a couple of hours, say, I definitely would.

Bletchleyite said:

I certainly would like to see that at major stations and shopping centres. I would be willing to pay to use it, though perhaps not quite as much as the outrageous rates charged for most station parking. A fiver a day or two quid for a couple of hours, say, I definitely would.

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In the Netherlands it is usually free, run by the council.

Bletchleyite said:

I certainly would like to see that at major stations and shopping centres. I would be willing to pay to use it, though perhaps not quite as much as the outrageous rates charged for most station parking. A fiver a day or two quid for a couple of hours, say, I definitely would.

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Cambridge does have one of these in the city centre (Grand Arcade car/cycle park) and despite it being rather out of the way (you wouldn't know it's there unless you looked it up) it's one of the safest cycle storage places in the city, far more so than the one at Cambridge station. If the congestion charge had gone ahead then I presume parts of the large car parks in the city centre would've been replaced with more cycle parking as well.

While making the existing cycle parks safer (particularly at rail stations) is important, I'm certainly in favour of the expansion of secure larger cycle parking areas in cities, as on-street bike stands are so hit and miss. Other than in Cambridge, I could see it working in London and Milton Keynes, plus possibly Bristol, Manchester and Edinburgh. Other UK cities have a long way to go before it's worth the cost.

E27007 said:

Sorry, but the post misses a key fact of history, it is not about cycling up hills, post-WW2, as prosperity rose in Holland, and for much of Europe, and mass car-ownership on the rise, accidents between pedestrians cyclists and motor vehicles were escalating, a milestone in Holland being the "Stop the child murder" campaign in response to road accidents involving children.
The campaign and the ever-pragmatic Dutch addressed the root cause, accidents arise from the conflict between the motor vehicle and the vulnerable sharing the same road space. the Dutch set about a safe environment by segregating motor vehicles from cyclists and pedestrians.
Britain witnessed mass car-ownership and rising accidents among the vulnerable, but the response was minimal, no segregation of road space and little motivation to address the accident issue, after all why be a cyclist or a pedestrian "in poverty" when you should be aspiring to drive a nice car?

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So to an extent it’s culture. Luckily I guess we didn’t build so fast, like China, because if we did maybe our roads would have become as car centric as parts of the USA and uk would like much more brutalist.

Silent said:

So to an extent it’s culture. Luckily I guess we didn’t build so fast, like China, because if we did maybe our roads would have become as car centric as parts of the USA and uk would like much more brutalist.

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There were certainly plenty of plans that wouid have made cities, including central London, look like that. Fortunately most of them didn't go ahead, though Birmingham probably got the furthest with it.

johncrossley said:

You need staffed parking in town centres where you can't take a bike out without the parking ticket. Dutch bike parking sometimes has electric bike charging.

Bike insurance is much better in the Netherlands. It pays out even if the bike isn't locked to a physical object. Most of the time Dutch cyclists only lock the rear wheel.

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We need much better bike parking infrastructure. It seems common for bikes to be stolen. I think this is a major reason people might not cycle places.

Farigiraf said:

Cambridge does have one of these in the city centre (Grand Arcade car/cycle park) and despite it being rather out of the way (you wouldn't know it's there unless you looked it up) it's one of the safest cycle storage places in the city, far more so than the one at Cambridge station. If the congestion charge had gone ahead then I presume parts of the large car parks in the city centre would've been replaced with more cycle parking as well.

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Note that there are only 64 secure bike spaces. The bike shop just lets you park there during opening hours. Even Evans Cycles near St Pancras station allows that.

Relevant to this, Merseyrail has just announced a ban on e-bikes taking effect (for enforcement) on 1st January, with similar reasoning to London Underground, but slightly stricter in that carrying disconnected batteries is also explicitly banned (this being a sneaky workaround to TfL's ban, as an e-bike without a battery is just a bike, and the battery being carried separately was not banned).

Like TfL folders remain allowed, probably because very few of the bodge jobs which pose the risk are folders.

Fortunately Liverpool is generally fairly flat so if people are riding to stations a normal bike will probably be OK for them...

Keeping our passengers and colleagues safe is our number one priority.

While fires involving e-bikes are rare, they can happen very quickly and with little warning. In railway environments, particularly stations, tunnels and trains, the consequences of a battery fire could have serious consequences.

That's why we have banned non-folding e-bikes on our network and why we're acting now to help protect passengers, colleagues and the railway.

The following items are banned from our stations, trains and cycle stores:

• Non-folding e-bikes
• Modified or adapted e-bikes
• E-bike conversion kits
• Detached lithium-ion e-bike batteries carried separately.

The ban applies to all areas of the Merseyrail network, including stations, car parks, cycle storage areas, station buildings and onboard our trains.

From 1 January 2027, passengers travelling with a banned bike or item may:

• Be refused entry to the network
• Be asked to leave a train or station
• Receive a penalty under the Railway Byelaws.

We know that some passengers currently rely on e-bikes as part of their journeys, so we're making sure people have plenty of time to prepare before enforcement comes into effect. Between now and January 2027, our focus will be on helping people understand the changes.

You can still travel with:

• Standard pedal bicycles
• Folding e-bikes
• Approved mobility scooters.

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Bletchleyite said:

Fortunately Liverpool is generally fairly flat so if people are riding to stations a normal bike will probably be OK for them...

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Not much good if you are taking your bike on the train because it is raining or due to a mechanical problem. If you currently use the train as a backup, if a taxi is the only alternative, you will be forced to end up driving. Lose-lose for the railway, your health and your wallet.

johncrossley said:

Not much good if you are taking your bike on the train because it is raining or due to a mechanical problem. If you currently use the train as a backup, if a taxi is the only alternative, you will be forced to end up driving. Lose-lose for the railway, your health and your wallet.

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At least normal bikes can still be taken on Merseyrail. If your normal bike goes wrong (or it tips down) in part of Manchester only served by Metrolink you still can't take it on...

Bletchleyite said:

At least normal bikes can still be taken on Merseyrail. If your normal bike goes wrong (or it tips down) in part of Manchester only served by Metrolink you still can't take it on...

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NS don't seem to have any specific e-bike bans, apart from the usual peak time restrictions on all bikes.

johncrossley said:

NS don't seem to have any specific e-bike bans, apart from the usual peak time restrictions on all bikes.

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Nederlandse Spoorwegen isn't an underground system. It has a few underground stations but isn't really comparable to Merseyrail or LU.

The Tyne and Wear Metro appears not to have banned them but I guess in due course they probably will now.

Bletchleyite said:

Nederlandse Spoorwegen isn't an underground system. It has a few underground stations but isn't really comparable to Merseyrail or LU.

The Tyne and Wear Metro appears not to have banned them but I guess in due course they probably will now.

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RET and GVB are underground and allow bikes off peak.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jul 2026 ==

What happens when electric bikes are banned from all TOCs?

Farigiraf said:

Cambridge does have one of these in the city centre (Grand Arcade car/cycle park) and despite it being rather out of the way (you wouldn't know it's there unless you looked it up) it's one of the safest cycle storage places in the city, far more so than the one at Cambridge station.

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I use the Grand Arcade cycle park when I go into town. There is now an alternative at Park Street, though I have not tried it yet:

There is also secure parking for 239 bicycles, 10 oversized bicycles and 20 motorcycles.

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johncrossley said:

Note that there are only 64 secure bike spaces.

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That's not correct. The City Council website says 200.

Grand Arcade cycle park​

The cycle park at Grand Arcade car park has about 200 spaces and is open every day from 7am to 11.30pm.

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Park Street cycle park​

The cycle park at Park Street car park has more than 260 spaces.

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One recent development in Cambridge is new workplaces getting secure cycle parking. On the Biomedical Campus the AstraZeneca Travel Hub (near the south end of platform 1 at Cambridge South) has secure cycle parking, and a cycle park is currently under construction at Discovery Drive.

But there are lots of other places where security is still an issue.

Magdalia said:

That's not correct. The City Council website says 200.

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I was only including the spaces in the bike shop. Is there someone to check your parking ticket when you leave these other spaces, like in Dutch secure bike parking?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jul 2026 ==

To answer my own question, the main cycle park at Grand Arcade isn't secure. There is nobody checking each bike when people take bikes out.

nope, we had one nicked from there last year. It was quite a nice bike but with a monster d-lock on it.
Grand Arcade security were utterly useless, even though it was directly below a CCTV camera - their role seems to be telling the police it was nicked so you can get a crime number and claim on insurance; neither they or the police care about actually finding it or who did it.

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A bugbear of mine is that the rail industry has been very slow to adapt to the increase in the number of cyclists that the e-bike revolution has brought. 10-15 years ago when i was taking my road bike on trains in Northern England, most times I was the only person bringing a bike on the train, now it's very common to see 4 or 5 bikes on trains, even on local stopping services. And yet TOCs such as Northern and EMR still only "officially" allow a maximum of two bikes on their trains on a first-come, first-served basis, which is pretty uesless if your train has already called at several stops before it gets to your local station and the bike space is already full.

TOCs really need to increase capacity on train to make combined journeys by rail and bike more practical. It's very frustrating to plan a day's cycling when you don't even know if you'll be allowed to get to the start of your planned ride until the train pulls in.

CaptainHaddock said:

A bugbear of mine is that the rail industry has been very slow to adapt to the increase in the number of cyclists that the e-bike revolution has brought. 10-15 years ago when i was taking my road bike on trains in Northern England, most times I was the only person bringing a bike on the train, now it's very common to see 4 or 5 bikes on trains, even on local stopping services. And yet TOCs such as Northern and EMR still only "officially" allow a maximum of two bikes on their trains on a first-come, first-served basis, which is pretty uesless if your train has already called at several stops before it gets to your local station and the bike space is already full.

TOCs really need to increase capacity on train to make combined journeys by rail and bike more practical. It's very frustrating to plan a day's cycling when you don't even know if you'll be allowed to get to the start of your planned ride until the train pulls in.

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Southern has even converted cycle parking to wheelchair spaces so there is no dedicated cycle area at all.

It is only a matter of time before electric bikes are banned from all trains.

Electric bikes cannot be stored at stations because of the risk of theft. And you are not allowed to remove the battery and take it with you on the train to reduce the chance of theft.

johncrossley said:

Southern has even removed converted cycle parking to wheelchair spaces so there is no dedicated cycle area at all.

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This will be properly resolved at some point. It was because of legal cases regarding there being shared space between cycles and wheelchair users - that is now no longer allowed. Though as proper e-bikes are no bigger than normal hybrids and the likes, it affects all bikes, not e-bikes.

In reality they will end up placed there and Southern will just blame passengers as the signage says not to, same as bags in trains where there is underprovision of luggage space.

johncrossley said:

It is only a matter of time before electric bikes are banned from all trains.

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I suspect this is sadly true, and the cause is the utter failure of regulation of the entire industry by Governments simply acting too slowly. It's illegal to ride one in public if it isn't an EAPC, of course, but it should have been caught earlier with a ban, enforced at ports, on importing non-CE-approved cycles, conversion kits and indeed all e-scooters, and on the sale thereof to places in the UK. Indeed potentially all non-CE-approved lithium batteries in any form.

johncrossley said:

Electric bikes cannot be stored at stations because of the risk of theft. And you are not allowed to remove the battery and take it with you on the train to reduce the chance of theft.

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The latter is basically unenforceable because there are no routine luggage checks. But TOCs who have banned ebikes and escooters have banned them from storage on the premises too, to be fair, and (except on TfL due to their ban's wording) taking the battery out doesn't make it not an e-bike, even if it does remove the safety risk.