PCC-style trams remaining in service in (western) Europe.

Hoping for a little bit of insight into this. Whilst railway wikipedia is generally excellent, there is some conflicting information on this topic.

I can remember getting on plenty of PCC trams the last time I visited Brussels in the late noughties. Obviously their numbers have dwindled massively as they are ancient now, but are there any left? I was in Antwerp recently and whilst a quick google suggested there were some still there, I couldn't find any after 2 hours or so of riding around. The Wikipedia page for Ghent trams suggests that there are still some in service there, but other information suggests that they were moved to Antwerp and then withdrawn at some point.

Then there is Brussels. From what I can gather the 2-section ones have been all retired, but there are still some 3-section ones in service. Is that correct?

Am I too late to experience these wonderful machines one last time?

As far as I'm aware it's indeed just the 3-section ones in Brussels that remain. There might be some still in Antwerp as spare vehicles and if they're deployed it's most likely on line 7, but it's also very likely that those have been retired by now.

They've been gone from Ghent for quite a few years now, until quite recently some of the PCCs from Ghent were used in Antwerp but that has also finished.

If more modern-looking trams with PCC-type bogies count, we might be able to include the Charleroi Light Metro. The bogies are hidden by side skirts, but Wikipedia has this hint:

Charleroi's LRV cars are bi-directional articulated trams which were supplied by La Brugeoise et Nivelles (BN) (with ACEC providing the motors and the electrical/electronic components) from 1980 to 1982.[21] They are similar to the trams operated on the Belgian coast tram line (although those have doors on only one side) and, to a lesser extent, to the first generation trains of the Manila Light Rail Transit System yellow line.

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Here is a photo of a first generation Manila train showing its PCC bogies.

There are still a handful of 2 sections PCC tramways in service in Brussels but the end can be any day now. The 3 sections ones are still all in service, minus a few already retired for accidents.

They are all gone from Ghent. A few of them were transferred to Antwerp to fulfill a temporary need for small bidirectional vehicles. That's ended too now.

As a last surprise, 4 of those ex Ghent trams have now been transferred from Antwerp to ... Charleroi, where they will replace a few very tired type SJ trams in the maintenance of way service. So if you are lucky you can see or even photograph one, but certainly not ride it.

Those SJ trams were ex type S transformations, themselves reconstruction of old standard SNCV trams. This means their chassis, bogies, motors, and controllers were approaching a century of age...

Don't forget the Tatras! The Tatra T1-T4 made in Prague after WW2 were built under licence from the PCC to use the design technology. This is apparent from their unique but classic design which bears strong resemblance to the western-built PCCs. After Czechoslovakia fell under Soviet influence this was officially forgotten, but the T3 continued in production into the 1980s, plus some articulated versions. There are plenty still in service in Prague and elsewhere in Central and Eastern Europe.

The OP specified western Europe.

Whilst not quite the same (and appreciating that this is in the International section) Britain's solution to the PCC was the VAMBAC - Variable Automatic Multinotch Braking and Acceleration Control - which was implemented in a few different traditional vehicles. Three survive, one of which is operable - Marton 11 at the East Anglian Transport Museum near Carlton Colville - it's worth a trip, albeit a short one, and is particularly interesting to compare with both 'proper' PCCs, the European clones and the Tatras. Of the other two, Blackpool 304 was undergoing work a few years ago to return to service (although whether that now happens is unknown given the challenges at Blackpool) and Leeds 602 is at the National Tramway Museum as a permanent exhibit.

To get back on topic, Antwerp is having a(nother) farewell to the PCCs running day on 26 September. Various vehicles will be out on a special route between around 1100 and 1700.

The European PCCs have somehow never quite reached the standards of the 1930s/40s original USA PCC design. The acceleration is never quite as notable as you get in the US from every stop, the notching up (conscious that a PCC has about 80 notches) never quite as jerk-free, seamless and noiseless. One wonders why. Even today there are a number of systems where 1940s All-Electric PCCs are in every day, all day service, most notably in Boston and San Francisco, the two cities which sponsored the replacing Boeing cars of the 1970s, all mod cons supposedly but which never worked properly.

I was pleased to see, only last month, one on the main north-south tunnel line through Brussels, mixed in with modern vehicles. It was just a training run, but still a stylish vehicle.

Taunton said:

The European PCCs have somehow never quite reached the standards of the 1930s/40s original USA PCC design. The acceleration is never quite as notable as you get in the US from every stop, the notching up (conscious that a PCC has about 80 notches) never quite as jerk-free, seamless and noiseless. One wonders why. Even today there are a number of systems where 1940s All-Electric PCCs are in every day, all day service, most notably in Boston and San Francisco, the two cities which sponsored the replacing Boeing cars of the 1970s, all mod cons supposedly but which never worked properly.

I was pleased to see, only last month, one on the main north-south tunnel line through Brussels, mixed in with modern vehicles. It was just a training run, but still a stylish vehicle.

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El Paso in Texas also has a revived streetcar system, using refurbished PCCs ex San Diego. Kenosha in Wisconsin also uses PCCs (in various liveries of former systems around the US as with San Francisco) but this is more of a heritage operation.

Sir Felix Pole said:

El Paso in Texas also has a revived streetcar system, using refurbished PCCs ex San Diego.

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Just for precision, these only served their first years in San Diego, they were sold to El Paso in 1950, and ran the international city route into Mexico until 1974 when it shut down. Stored locally out in the open for, extraordinarily, 44 years, fortunately in the very benign climate there, in 2018 they were rebuilt and put back onto a quasi-tourist route downtown. They however have a modern traction package, not the original PCC "Magic Carpet" hallmark.

By a coincidence, I passed through El Paso in 1974 on a Greyhound bus, and one of these cars passed in front of us in what I now see was in their last days of traditional operation.

Blackpool had PCCs of a sort with the 25 'Coronation' trams introduced in 1952, using 'VAMBAC' equipment - a Crompton Parkinson knock-off of the PCC concept. They were notoriously unreliable and most subsequently received conventional controllers - Car 304 still survives with its original equipment. It was restored as part of a 'Salvage Squad' project.

Gag Halfrunt said:

The OP specified western Europe.

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(in brackets)

southern442 said:

Hoping for a little bit of insight into this. Whilst railway wikipedia is generally excellent, there is some conflicting information on this topic.

I can remember getting on plenty of PCC trams the last time I visited Brussels in the late noughties. Obviously their numbers have dwindled massively as they are ancient now, but are there any left? I was in Antwerp recently and whilst a quick google suggested there were some still there, I couldn't find any after 2 hours or so of riding around. The Wikipedia page for Ghent trams suggests that there are still some in service there, but other information suggests that they were moved to Antwerp and then withdrawn at some point.

Then there is Brussels. From what I can gather the 2-section ones have been all retired, but there are still some 3-section ones in service. Is that correct?

Am I too late to experience these wonderful machines one last time?

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The last PCC run in Antwerpen was on 30th April, on line 2. There is major works on the tunnel network which has curtailed several routes, freeing up lots of modern trams. September 26th has been mentioned as a date for a farewell event.

From the title of the topic, I understand that the question is broader than just the PCCs in Brussels.

For what it's worth, in The Hague (NL) a service is still operated on Saturdays and Sundays. Every half hour, the Tourist Tram service is run with (two) PCCs (built in 1957/1958 and 1972). Although this is operated by the tram museum, it is not a museum line. The trams used also do not belong to the official museum tram collection. The available ones are 1101, 1193, and 1321. Unfortunately, 1180 has been out of service for two years now with severe collision damage. They are still working hard on getting 1227 (from 1963) ready, but it won't be available for the time being. See www.touristtram.nl

It may be interesting to note that these trams, unlike the other PCC built by BN Bruges, are based on the American (post-war) PCC design. Although the car body is of course narrower.

Above, I see another comment about the percieved difference in riding qualities between the European and the USA PCCs. I can only judge the Hague PCCs, as a passenger and (twice) as a driver. I really can’t imagine there being a noticeable difference in acceleration between an American PCC and those in The Hague: the accelerator (99 driving notches) is identical, and the motors are identical. What is different is that the American B3 truck (bogie) was modified because the riding characteristics didn’t appeal to European passengers. To be complete: the Tourist Tram PCC's have BN trucks, a further adaptation of the original design.

What I wrote above applies to the Hague PCCs. For the articulated trams in Brussels, different accelerators are used (two per tram). And although the driving style of Brussels tram drivers also seems different, I can say that, in my experience, a Brussels 7900 (the double-articulated version) rides very similarly to a The Hague 1300+2100 coupled set.

We also still have an original SNCV PCC tram in operating condition on the ASVI tram museum line in Thuin.

Taunton said:

The European PCCs have somehow never quite reached the standards of the 1930s/40s original USA PCC design. The acceleration is never quite as notable as you get in the US from every stop, the notching up (conscious that a PCC has about 80 notches) never quite as jerk-free, seamless and noiseless. One wonders why. Even today there are a number of systems where 1940s All-Electric PCCs are in every day, all day service, most notably in Boston and San Francisco, the two cities which sponsored the replacing Boeing cars of the 1970s, all mod cons supposedly but which never worked properly.

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I know this is OT but just to note that the PCC fleet in Boston is gradually getting updated with new traction packages and therefore will not technically be PCCs. I believe there are still 2 cars remaining with the original PCC controllers. San Francisco and Kenosha Wisconsin still use "real" PCCs.

Gag Halfrunt said:

Here is a photo of a first generation Manila train showing its PCC bogies.

File:LRT-1 Carriedo 1G 2023-06-11.jpg - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

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I have no knowledge of trams but I'm staying on the outskirts of Den Haag with some friends and I think I saw something very similar coming out the depot as I was riding the line 4 back to their house.

Those were also built by BN and definitely have PCC bogies.


Google translation of the relevant part:

Like their predecessors—the Hague PCCs—the GTLs feature foot controls and PCC bogies. The GTL8 was the first major series of rolling stock in the Netherlands (and in Europe, following the TW6000 series used by the Hanover tramway/Üstra) to feature a thyristor-chopper traction circuit based on an HTM design, utilizing advanced 'pulse control' with RCT series-resonant current commutation. This traction circuit was later adopted by HOLEC for the equipment of the NS's ICM chopper-controlled rolling stock.

...

Units 3001–3065 were delivered with new BN-type PCC bogies—an improved version of the bogie used on the 1100 series. All other GTL units were fitted with B3 bogies; most of these were reused units sourced from the 1200, 1300, and 2100 series. However, new B3 bogies were also manufactured in 1992–1993 for 27 GTL8-II vehicles.

All GTL units utilize eight PCC DC motors—specifically the type 1432 model from Westinghouse or its European licensee, ACEC. The power output is 41 kW per motor, rising to 45 kW for the newest units; the latter increase is due to a... ...improved insulation. Many of these motors originated from HTM series 1000, 1100, 1200, 1300, and 2100. Some were even acquired second-hand from MIVB and San Francisco Muni.

The Amsterdam BN trams of the 11G and 12G series (817–841 and 901–920) were largely based on The Hague's GTL trams, following a trial period in 1987 during which The Hague's GTL 3069 ran in Amsterdam for over two weeks—partly with passengers on board. However, the Amsterdam version differed in dimensions (due to a more restricted clearance profile compared to The Hague) and utilized three-phase AC motors instead of the DC motors found on the GTL.

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Now two tramtypes get mixed up

The design of the GTL8 originated from a rolling stock study by HTM from the 1970s and was influenced by the P8 from Frankfurt am Main. It certainly has a number of PCC characteristics, such as the two-part windshield, the motors, and the bogies (B3 / BN). The electrical system is comparable to that of a coupled PCC set in the sense that it has two independent installations. However, they are equipped with a thyristor installation and are not electro-technically a PCC.

The LRTA 1000 class in Manila is derived from the so-called BN-type built for the Belgian SNCV (vicinal tram ). Thyristor control is also used here. The SNCV BN-type is 1000 mm. For testing the standard-gauge bogies for the cars built for Manila, the SNCV 6106 (between April and May 1981) and the 6145 (in May 1982) were fitted with standard-gauge bogies and tested at night on line 44 in Brussels

Both tram types were built by the same manufacturer, but they are two separate developments. As a resident of The Hague, I see little or no resemblance between the Manila tram and the GTL8

Can anyone advise which lines (or times of day) are most likely to find the old 3 section trams still operating in Brussels? Thanks!

Lxd2 said:

Can anyone advise which lines (or times of day) are most likely to find the old 3 section trams still operating in Brussels? Thanks!

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When I visited this time last year it was the 39 and 44 out of Montgomery.

In the timetable valid from May 11 th 2026 onwards MIVB 7900 is stil in service on:
39+44: all services - this will be the case until the loop of the Montgomery Pre-metro station is changed. No date known for that yet.
18: majority of the services
81: very limited number of services.