Trivia: Simple journeys in London where the maximum journey time is too short? (and thus leads to an incomplete journey)

Yesterday I was roaming about London with a Travelcard and decided to go from Clapham Junction to Meridian Water, via Stratford. The journey took me 1 hour and 25 minutes. Both trains I took were not delayed at all, albeit with a 5 minute wait at Stratford for the Greater Anglia train to depart.

When I got home, I looked up the maximum journey time and saw that between 3 zones (in my case 2-4), the journey time permitted was 1 hour and 30 minutes.

I know TfL probably doesn't expect people to travel the entire length of the North London Line, but does anyone else think that this time limit is too short? I'm sure there are other journeys where the journey time is not possible to beat. The only other one I can think of right now is Caterham to Tattenham Corner.

Do forgive me if this is the wrong section for this sort of post.

As a very fringe example, TfL's journey planner gives at least 1:37 from Moor Park to Emerson Park leaving now (I think Moor Park's counted as Z6 in this case, so a limit of 2:00, 2:15, 2:25 for M-F, week evenings / Sat, Sundays); miss a Liberty Line service and it's almost certainly over the limit on a weekday. The same applies from, say, Chesham to Emerson Park (2:03 leaving now, maximum journey time of 2:30; in this case, working in either direction).

I don't know if OSIs or pink Oyster pads have any impact on maximum journey times; Moor Park to Emerson Park via Gospel Oak is given as 1:59, so effectively impossible within that time if not (and the single fare finder gives an option for Moor Park to Emerson Park avoiding Z1).

Somebody wanting to go from White Hart Lane to Beckton without leaving Z3 (via Tottenham Hale and Stratford) would be faced with a 70 minute maximum for a 59 minute journey time.

There are some journeys where the maximum journey time (MJT) can be exceeded even without disruption. However it's worth noting two quirks in the way the MJTs are calculated, which 'disprove' some of the above examples..

Firstly, if the deemed route for a journey involves going into a lower numbered zone and then back into a higher numbered zone (e.g. Z6-1-6 for Moor Park to Emerson Park), each zone 'boundary' passed through gets counted - and vice versa. So the aforementioned journey would count as 11 zones being passed through, hence the MJT would instead be 2h50m to 3h25m, depending on the time of day and day of the week.

Secondly, even if there are multiple fares defined for a journey, the MJT is the same for all of them and is defined based on the 'default' route as far as I'm aware. So for the Clapham to Meridian Water example, the MJT would be based on the default fare which is via Zone 1, and thus the Zones 1-4 MJT of 1h50m to 2h15m would apply. Still not particularly generous - for example if you're travelling from Isleworth, there's no official itinerary under 2 hours on a weekday if you want to avoid Zone 1 (for which there's a dedicated fare).

A S Leib said:

As a very fringe example, TfL's journey planner gives at least 1:37 from Moor Park to Emerson Park leaving now (I think Moor Park's counted as Z6 in this case, so a limit of 2:00, 2:15, 2:25 for M-F, week evenings / Sat, Sundays); miss a Liberty Line service and it's almost certainly over the limit on a weekday. The same applies from, say, Chesham to Emerson Park (2:03 leaving now, maximum journey time of 2:30; in this case, working in either direction).

Click to expand...

Moor Park to Emerson Park is allowed three hours according to the Oyster Fares journey finder - https://oysterfares.com/fare-finder/

Time Allowed To Complete Journey
Monday-Friday (0430-1900) 180 mins 3hr 0m
M-F (1900-0430) & Saturday 200 mins 3hr 20m
Sunday & Public Holidays 220 mins 3hr 40m

Click to expand...

The only other one I can think of right now is Caterham to Tattenham Corner.

Time Allowed To Complete Journey
Monday-Friday (0430-1900) 70 mins 1hr 10m
M-F (1900-0430) & Saturday 80 mins 1hr 20m
Sunday & Public Holidays 85 mins 1hr 25m

Click to expand...

Caterham to Tattenham you should be okay. It's in the other direction it's not possible

A S Leib said:

I don't know if OSIs or pink Oyster pads have any impact on maximum journey times

Click to expand...

Does anyone know the answer to this?

Somewhere said:

Caterham to Tattenham you should be okay. It's in the other direction it's not possible

Click to expand...

Yes, as the connection is a full 30 minutes in Purley, so the journey can't be made in less than 80 minutes.

A S Leib said:

I think Moor Park's counted as Z6 in this case

Click to expand...

Actually it will be zone 7 if travelling towards London - you get an extra zone from a dual zoned station.

A S Leib said:

Somebody wanting to go from White Hart Lane to Beckton without leaving Z3 (via Tottenham Hale and Stratford) would be faced with a 70 minute maximum for a 59 minute journey time

Click to expand...

If a journey is within zones 1-4 then extra time is allowed. A journey within zones 2-3 (including zone 3 only) is given 90 minutes.

Watershed said:

the MJT is the same for all of them and is defined based on the 'default' route as far as I'm aware.

Click to expand...

My understanding is that it's based on the longest route allowed rather than the default, as can be seen by the White Hart Lane to Beckton example.

A S Leib said:

I don't know if OSIs or pink Oyster pads have any impact on maximum journey times

Click to expand...

frankmoh said:

Does anyone know the answer to this?

Click to expand...

They don't.

You may find my page a useful read for all this.

Finally, anyone who wants to break the Tattenham Corner to Caterham time and contact the helpdesk for a refund will probably help in getting that one extended.

Are the River Bus PAYG maximum journey times published anywhere? I have exceeded the MJT on a fog delayed trip so they are probably not very generous.

frankmoh said:

Does anyone know the answer to this?

Click to expand...

Anyone in a position to definitively know would probably also be bound by a social media policy to not reveal any non-public information.

The TfL website does not categorically state the answer; I don't believe any FoI request has touched on it.

Depending on what was being asserted, it may well be possible to devise a suitable test sequence of taps...

akm said:

Anyone in a position to definitively know would probably also be bound by a social media policy to not reveal any non-public information.

The TfL website does not categorically state the answer; I don't believe any FoI request has touched on it.

Depending on what was being asserted, it may well be possible to devise a suitable test sequence of taps...

Click to expand...

Did you read my reply from earlier?

An OSI and a pink reader both serve to identify the route taken. There is only one set of journey times for each pair of stations (set = M-F, evening+Sat, Sun+PH). Examination of a number of edge cases prove that the allowed time is based at least on the longest route (number of zones). It also proves that a dual zoned station is deemed to be in the further out zone when calculating time allowed. The data used on my fare finder is provided in response to an FOI request.

MikeWh said:

Did you read my reply from earlier?

Click to expand...

I did, and I also read the one where you replied "they don't" to the question "does anyone know the answer to this?

‍

akm said:

I did, and I also read the one where you replied "they don't" to the question "does anyone know the answer to this?

‍

Click to expand...

"They don't" was in reference to me wondering if OSIs and pink Oyster readers affected maximum journey times.

A S Leib said:

"They don't" was in reference to me wondering if OSIs and pink Oyster readers affected maximum journey times.

Click to expand...

Is the correct answer, but I can see how it might have been misconstrued.

Ah! I see, I got the wrong end of the stick