Let's forget the lack of appetite from roscos to do any conversions. Depending on what level of electrification to go for. Discontinuous doing all the easy bits for cheap and just using batteries for the hard bits like the tunnels, you won't need massive batteries for that.
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Future of the 350/2s
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Nym
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And yet no-one is rushing to retrofit batteries to old EMUs to take advantage of this rapidly improving technology.
After the turntide batteries on the 802 which may or may not still be fitted (I'm no longer in position to give a... <insert your own words here>), and numerous ideas for 'decarbonisation' including the same battery packs, different battery packs, conversion of EMUs, DMUs, and addition of hybrid drives to other vehicle types to give advantage on mixed traffic railways.
None of these, and I mean, none have been commercialised. And very few ever turned a wheel in anger, or even got close to it.
Sadly I feel failures such as 769s came before batterys became established. Plus 319s were basically at the end of their lives when they got converted.
What will be different with 350s is whilst they're not new, they're also not as old as every other fleet and is possibly their downfall. When 319s were converted, their days were numbered and in fact, their conversion could be seen as a success because the only ones still earning themselves money for the Rosco is the converted 769s. Though the trains might be incredibly unreliable, it's still extended the life of the units so could be measured as a success in that regard and they still have several more years until northerns new fleet comes in. I reckon porterbrook will try everything they can to avoid converting the 350s for the risks. But if it extends their life and is the only way they can secure another lease, they might be much more tempted then if it can secure the trains another 10 years in service like the 319 conversion did.
The Planner
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They aren't though. They are learning Crewe to the airport, not Kidsgrove to Man Picc.
If there were a Cov/ Intl/ New St to Manchester EMU service, there'd be no particular need for that and the 2x XC to run via Stoke. Might make most sense for one of them to go via Crewe (though that would probably be one of the XCs, which doesn't help with route knowledge if LNR are running the EMU service).
It no doubt goes without saying that it would require a spin on the magic path generator machine.
which is why I said the quickest solution would probably be to TUPE enough XC drivers to LNR, train them on the EMUs and transfer the Manc - Midlands service over.
(I remembered a long dwell at Wolves on one of those trains and imagined that it was still the norm. Given the need to release Voyagers for XC today it must be possible to find ways to tweak the timetables to allow easy interchange between the new north-end EMU service and the rump of the XC routes. This is probably better in the XC thread, but such a change need not be symmetrical, e.g. change at Wolves in one direction, Cov in the other, and not even cross-platform if the two trains ran through the same platform in quick succession.)
TastyMaltesers
Member
I don't know much about the stations that 323s currently serve, but would it be a problem that a 350 set is 10m longer than a 323 set?
Nym
Established Member
When platform extensions are of the minimum length to do what’s needed this time rather than spending a marginal extra amount to take them to a notional “sensible” length during lengthening projects. Yes.
Under the guise of “value engineering” tiny savings will be made on a job needing a full remobilisation to lengthen it another 8m later
Sam 76
Member
The thing is with the batteries is it’s arguable it’s still not really there even now.
The 777/1s have endless trouble on the Headbolt Lane section and often fail in particular when switching between the two power modes. Granted they are improving as is the fleet but what’s to say the 350/2s going up Windermere wouldn’t have the same issue and bringing the whole WCML to a standstill north of Preston. It’s a huge risk
So wire the Windermere branch for a start, most of the prep work has been done.
Then buy a fleet of purpose-built BEMUs for Barrow so that the compromises from adapting something else doesn't trip them up. Is there something elsewhere in Europe which is already working successfully that could be built for the UK loading gauge?
Class 466
Established Member
Pretty much any platform that could only fit a single 323 was extended a while back - remember up until it was announced in August 2019 that they were staying (and being joined by 17 ex-WMT) 323s were going to be replaced by 319s/331s.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The major manufacturers are tending towards offering something, yes. Germany certainly has some BEMUs in service.
The Planner
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We have done this before though. You won't get them to International (or through Crewe) and untangling the resulting XC issues at New St is far from simple.
Seems like what we really need is a new pair of tracks between Birmingham and Manchester...
No. You said it could be done with ‘almost no traction or road learning’
I've told myself a million times, "I must stop exaggerating!"
Youd only need to wire the platform at oxenholme to prevent that being an issue. Once on the branch platform, it doesn't affect the rest of the wcml. Or like others have mentioned, Windermere isn't the hardest of jobs to wire. If barrow was happy to loose their through services to Manchester for a change at Lancaster. Could it even be done as an hourly Manchester airport to Windermere service Instesd?
D365
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This is exactly what Northern is planning.
That is good... are they actually doing it, or just planning?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I think that could be politically difficult, but it would also be operationally difficult - to do it you'd really need a fourth platform at Oxenholme due to the timings, and it's hard to see where one would go.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
It's part of the 15x replacement plan, and it will have to happen before they all fall apart unless you're going to have mass closures instead (and I don't mean a bit of pruning like Millom-Corkickle and such, I mean taking out most of the Manchester commuter routes on which they are the mainstay - and there's really no way that would happen bar as something like a wartime economy measure).
Sam 76
Member
Agreed, was more talking about putting batteries on them and the risk. If they places OHLE on the Windermere branch it would be both sensible and practical
Northern are at the point where the mystery unit has a 781 class number but at present no one knows what it looks like or who is building it but apparently autumn some news may come out
As much as CAF is maligned it would make sense for all 450 trains to be built by them which is why what will probably happen is that every new train will be built by some one different!
As for 350s we can see now that even after the 769s have had another million quid spent on them (each) they are still as unreliable as ever, most days they are being covered by 150s. There is no question we are at the point now where the powers that be can see that messing around putting money into adding batteries onto old trains is an absolute money pit! No more messing around please
My own thoughts are that the 350s would do well on a Northern operated train that calls stops from Crewe to Preston/Liverpool/Lancaster. Also maybe a Stoke to Lancaster or maybe in the not too distant future a Stoke to Leeds via the chord and Huddersfield
The Windermere branch platform at Oxenholme is already wired.
Crewe to Liverpool is already run by lnwr providing a local service between south parkway and Crewe using 350s. However a Crewe to Lancaster probably isn't a bad idea. Could plug some gaps such as winsford/Hartford to Warrington. Warrington to the future station at goldborne. As well as the potential to open local stations at locations which don't have them such as some of the towns/villages between Wigan and Preston assuming such a stopping service could be pathed. I also feel such a service might fit a bit better with lnwr assuming they'd be willing to take the 350/2s back.
The stoke suggestions however I dont think are a good idea as throwing more services at castlefield is a good idea, especially not down a line otherwise isolated from it. Same could be argued by XC delays knocking onto this new service through castelefield from Stoke. Not worth it imo. Though I admit, being able to change at Stockport to go north towards Preston or Leeds certainly beats a Piccadilly 13/14 change, or worse, the trek across to Victoria.
If northern was to take the units with current infrastructure, it could only be for the crewe/stoke and maybe alderly edge. Would certainly allow an internal EMU cascade and maybe see away a few 323s to be kept as spares, or more likely given their current reliability, parts doners.
TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
Sorry, is that a Northern brief or a Porterbrook one?
From NorthernSorry, is that a Northern brief or a Porterbrook one?
TastyMaltesers
Member
Whether though genuine affection or Stockholm Syndrome, I think I'll miss the 323s when they're gone!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Everyone enduring a non-air-conditioned unit today breathes a sigh of relief!
323s are good units well ahead of their time (looking super-modern in the late 1990s compared to all the Mk3-derived kit) not to mention the "hot rod" sound effects but they're now dated and lack aircon. The 350/2s are excellent (even the 3+2 seating layout isn't bad, with the legroom on the 3 side at First Class levels of spacing) and I am sure will be as appreciated up there as they were down here.
Just a shame it's taken so long to get a deal in place! Presumably the refurb of the West Midlands 323s can be cancelled economically, perhaps by giving the deal to refurbish these instead to the same supplier? They are a bit tatty and would benefit from new seat covers and carpets and a general deep clean.
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