Basic information on a penalty fare notice

confusedDad said:

Nonetheless, the appeal process have now replied saying as she is under 18, she should have a parent appeal on her behalf.

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The appeals panel have 21 days to determine the appeal or there is no liability to pay the penalty fare, only the fare for the journey.

[F2(11A) If an appeal is against a penalty fare calculated in accordance with regulation 9(1A) or (4A), where the relevant Appeal Panel—

(a)notifies the operator that an appeal has been allowed; or

(b)fails to adhere to the time period specified in paragraph 6 of schedule 2 [21 days], the appellant is not liable to pay the penalty fare in question and is only liable to pay the full single fare applicable for their journey.]

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(The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018)

They can't reject an appeal because your daughter is under 18.

Appeals – stage one​

16.—(1) A person (“the appellant”) charged a penalty fare under regulation 5(1) may appeal against that penalty fare to the relevant Appeal Panel—

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(The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018)

I would sit tight and let the appeal process time out.

P Binnersley said:

The appeals panel have 21 days to determine the appeal or there is no liability to pay the penalty fare, only the fare for the journey.

(The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018)

They can't reject an appeal because your daughter is under 18.

(The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018)

I would sit tight and let the appeal process time out.

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They also added in their letter to my daughter that if they don’t hear back, they will take it that she has waived her right to appeal

confusedDad said:

They also added in their letter to my daughter that if they don’t hear back, they will take it that she has waived her right to appeal

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That is complete nonsense from them. There is no statutory power for them to refuse to handle an appeal just because it comes from an under-18.

It's up to you whether you get your daughter to submit a follow-up response along those lines, reminding them of the law, or just let the 21 day window for an appeal decision elapse, after which time it would be automatically allowed as @P Binnersley cites above.

Watershed said:

That is complete nonsense from them. There is no statutory power for them to refuse to handle an appeal just because it comes from an under-18.

It's up to you whether you get your daughter to submit a follow-up response along those lines, reminding them of the law, or just let the 21 day window for an appeal decision elapse, after which time it would be automatically allowed as @P Binnersley cites above.

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Here’s the letter

They're really stupid, I'm afraid. Imagine sending that letter to a child. It's such low-IQ behaviour.

If you allow it to lapse they will just chase for money, so appeal on her behalf, but DO NOT give your personal details other than your name.

1. It is not compliant in multiple respects therefore the PF was not issued in accordance with the regulations (which require a compliant appeals process) and ought to be considered unenforceable on those grounds alone.
2. Let it time out. While they can allow late appeals, appeals cannot be put on hold.
(I wonder what court proceedings they have in mind that they state the train operating company is entitled to take against a minor.)

You haven't told us the date on the letter, but if you are going to respond in the way they are asking, leave it until the last possible moment to maximise the chance of their decision being out-of-time.

furlong said:

1. It is not compliant in multiple respects therefore the PF was not issued in accordance with the regulations (which require a compliant appeals process) and ought to be considered unenforceable on those grounds alone.
2. Let it time out. While they can allow late appeals, appeals cannot be put on hold.
(I wonder what court proceedings they have in mind that they state the train operating company is entitled to take against a minor.)

You haven't told us the date on the letter, but if you are going to respond in the way they are asking, leave it until the last possible moment to maximise the chance of their decision being out-of-time.

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The letter is dated today.

What do you mean by a decision being timed out? Do decisions have to be made in a certain time?

As quoted above there is a time limit for them to decide the appeal. Writing you a letter like that does not "stop the clock" as the regulations don't let them do that.
I'd make clear in my response that the appeal was submitted in full compliance with the regulations and as such I trust it will be decided in full accordance with them and as such I see no need to supply any additional information. I'd reply "within 14 days" late on the day they are required to notify you of their appeal decision (21 days from original submission) - so they have time to receive your response rejecting (implicitly) the validity of their revised timeline and then to decide the appeal within the original deadline - but only just. Your hope is they'll miss the original deadline and then the liability to pay the penalty falls away.
Alternative is not to reply and then quote the 21 day limit if they don't consider and decide the appeal yet still ask you to pay it. Swings and roundabouts really.
The first method tells them they're doing wrong while they still have chance to fix it which makes it harder for them to claim later that you accepted what they wrote. The second doesn't tell them till it's too late as it's hard to see how it's your job to tell them what they wrote isn't compliant but leaves you open to the charge that by not responding you were accepting it nevertheless.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2026 ==

Of course what's really going on here is their acceptance that the regulations are not fit-for-purpose in respect of children and an attempt to replace them with something more convenient for them. But the answer is to change the regulations, not to make something up and pretend! They assume most people won't read the regulations so won't know the difference and will comply.

AlterEgo said:

The penalty fare is unlawful as it does not give the grounds on which it was issued, which makes it unenforceable. You should appeal on these grounds and it will succeed on these grounds alone. You may need to take it all the way through to a third appeal though, because the first two stages are designed to waste everyone's time out of malice and contempt.

FYI the Adult/Child portion relates to the age of the traveller, not the ticket held; it is a superfluous field.



The law is here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/5

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So we won the appeal on the first stage as, as kindly advised above, the notice didn’t comply. THANKS SO MUCH for the support and guidance

confusedDad said:

So we won the appeal on the first stage as, as kindly advised above, the notice didn’t comply. THANKS SO MUCH for the support and guidance

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You're welcome. Indeed, the notice was completely non-compliant! Well done on a successful appeal.

Out of interest, did you end up appealing as the parent on her behalf, or did you just let this lapse?

AlterEgo said:

You're welcome. Indeed, the notice was completely non-compliant! Well done on a successful appeal.

Out of interest, did you end up appealing as the parent on her behalf, or did you just let this lapse?

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I appealed as the parent. I did consider leaving it but my anxiety couldn’t have coped