TransportHub
Member
Re the FOI request for info on these cancellations, GTR has delayed responding
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GTR Summer Holiday Cancellations
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devon_belle
Member
GTR have emailed about the changes:
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
There withdrawing two busiest trains off my route in the morning peak but leaving the rest of service unchanged. From 1100-1400 there are less than a handful of passengers on and off for a half hourly service. My take is they've sacrificed the least productive diagrams presumably to reduce RDW costs but in the round it will make very little difference. Also why have all but Avanti not been tasked with the same action well at least the London commuter operations.
Given how complicated the driver diagrams are (as revealed by a recent FOI request), I'd expect an extensive rewrite to be required. Each Thameslink driver will work a few different unit diagrams in a shift. I wonder how many turns they plan to save?
SECR 65
Member
Sorry to go briefly slightly off-topic, but do SN drivers sign 171 alongside 377 or is it a seperate diesel pool? Removing the Uckfield 0703 will save a unit diagram - but would it remove an entire staff turn? I presume the guards on the Uckfield line must be dedicated, seeing as 377s have OBSs?
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
Probably explains why the two services on my route (9Rxx) have been pulled as they are simple out and back diagram for the unit so they can offer something upto the DfT without any rewrite of diagrams and give the resources team two less turns to cover at the start of the day.
Norwood drivers and Selhurst guards work the 171 units, but they also sign other routes and tractions.
The withdrawal of the 07.03 would save a unit diagram, but I expect the driver and guard's diagram has other work on it. So unless there is a major rejig of the traincrew diagrams, they will be sitting spare for this time.
Looking at 9R14, it's a Brighton driver throughout. They have a break in Bedford and work 9T31 at 1146 back to Brighton. Someone still needs to drive 9T31. Sure, the driver could travel to Bedford in plenty of time for the back working but that seems pointless. Is the goal saving units rather than crew?
evergreenadam
Member
- Joined
- 23 Nov 2013
- Messages
- 323
I would love to see the cost benefit analysis of these temporary cuts.
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
9R14 is formed off a 3B's ECS to Haywards Hth so if its Brighton driver cushions upto 3B's that would be a logical diagram to knock out. Anyhow its now showing as STP for w/c 20th July !!
Minstral25
Established Member
No, not reinstated they are Q codes in case they decide to run them but to make sure they are not in timetable - local reaction of losing 9R18 is utter disgust. A very busy and popular train as it is first off-peak service, plus a relatively fast one to London as it doesn't call at Merstham or Coulsdon South.
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
Indeed it plain daft withdrawing trains that are well used and flies in the face of the reason they are doing it. Fair enough if they'd taken ones out later in the morning where you be lucky to get a handful of passengers from Salfords, Earlswood and even Sth Croydon stop isnt that well patronised but Norwood always provides good custom so come London Bridge they are pretty well used but by STP numbers quickly fall off. I rarely go beyond STP to know loadings Northbound.
Seems a token gesture to appease DfT but maybe they are still tight on resources so reliant upon RDW.
It will be rare that removing a unit diagram will directly remove crew diagrams neatly. Diagrams will often require tweaking rather than a full rewrite. The Rainham route may be an exception given the extent of those changes to get maximum benefit.
Taking 9R14, someone will still need to drive 9T31. However the next Brighton driver diagram starts later and finishes earlier with a break in Bedford. Keeping the duty times for the 9R14 diagram that driver could do the work from the next diagram instead of 9R14 up until the break at Bedford. That next crew diagram only drives 9R19 after their break also removed from the timetable. So they can take a longer break at Bedford then drive 9T31 back down to Brighton resulting in 1 diagram instead of 2. No idea if that's the plan or not, just an example of how it could work.
London Trains
Established Member
- Joined
- 9 Oct 2017
- Messages
- 1,205
The exact same reductions are now showing on RTT for October half term too. Disgraceful.
OneOfThe48
Member
9R18 to Bedford isn’t the first off-peak train to London from the Redhill area. That would be the 1R95 to Victoria that runs 8 minutes earlier
Class15
Established Member
Couldn’t agree more. What a joke.
devon_belle
Member
I initially thought this move, at least on Southern, would be to free up sets for strengthening 'holiday' services to Gatwick, Coastway, etc. But the only talk has been of this period being 'quiet' and so it sounds like they just want to cut diagrams to save money. Not a good first impression of GBR Southern for me...
Even if it was to reallocate sets, it feels wrong to disadvantage commuters (a captive market) in this way. On the Mole Valley line most morning/evening trains are full and standing, and I am sceptical that demand will be reduced enough to not need the peak extras. My anecdotal experience from the previous few summer holidays is that the regular commuter base is just added to by parents and children going to London to get a full day out, or they travel at later times when there already aren't any peak extras but trains are full anyway.
Even if it was to reallocate sets, it feels wrong to disadvantage commuters (a captive market) in this way. On the Mole Valley line most morning/evening trains are full and standing, and I am sceptical that demand will be reduced enough to not need the peak extras. My anecdotal experience from the previous few summer holidays is that the regular commuter base is just added to by parents and children going to London to get a full day out, or they travel at later times when there already aren't any peak extras but trains are full anyway.
Yes, the Brighton drivers travels to Three Bridges, drives the ECS to Haywards Heath and then drives 9R14 throughout. But my point is that someone still needs to drive the return working from Bedford, which is a different unit. Either driver diagrams are being extensively rewritten, or lots of drivers will be travelling around. Which will achieve nothing as regards reducing rest day working.
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That makes sense. It will certainly keep the planners busy, trawling through unit and crew diagrams to find the optimum solution.
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The Belgians do similar. The public timetable has trains with a dot or a triangle at the top of the column. Dots don't run in school holidays, and triangles don't run in summer, or around Christmas. The dates are all listed at the front of the timetable. It's usually only the rush hour 'P' trains that are affected, rather than the standard hourly service. On some routes, two P trains run close together on a skip stop basis. During the summer triangle period, only one runs but calls at the stations usually covered by the non runner.
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In terms of the Southern side of it, surely the cuts on the Coastway <> London Bridge trains already have a plan anyway, the Friday timetable diagrams, stock and crew wise, when these trains don't run.
Be interesting to see what stock and crew work the extra Brighton to London Bridge that is running in place of a TL "Brand" service, at one TOC at least I can think of (Not this one), it would just get thrown in to special turns for crew, meaning more resources needed!
Be interesting to see what stock and crew work the extra Brighton to London Bridge that is running in place of a TL "Brand" service, at one TOC at least I can think of (Not this one), it would just get thrown in to special turns for crew, meaning more resources needed!
Minstral25
Established Member
OK but not from Reigate but yes from some stations if you have the right ticket. The first Thameslink to London Bridge, Blackfriars and St Pancras is 9R18. Most people travel there
devon_belle
Member
Ah yes, the schools are out so people must not need to commute to London Bridge. I'm sure services that stop at Gatwick will be deserted too!
Out of curiosity has anyone here ever used these services? Are they well-loaded?
dk1
Veteran Member
It’s often quite amusing that what looks like a saving causes so many incremental additional costs that you wonder, why bother? Until recently the 18:02 Norwich-Great Yarmouth & return were withdrawn for several timetables. The booked conductor sat spare in the messroom whilst the driver shunted the unit to either the nearby Jubilee sidings or ran on to Crown Point to get the unit out of the way before returning to the station for its next diagramed working.
The few times I have used the Eastbourne to London Bridge, you can usually get a bay of two to yourself even joining at East Croydon.
London Trains
Established Member
- Joined
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All of the cancellations appear to have been removed for Monday 20th and Tuesday 21st July.
Sussex Ben
Member
I can only comment on the 1703 and 1733 services from London Bridge. The 1703 isn’t usually very busy, but it’s only been running since Dec 2025 (except school holidays) so it’s probably still finding its way. The 1733 is usually busy until Three Bridges / Haywards Heath.
It appears to me that both trains’ primary functions are to relieve the very busy Thameslink services that follow them, and sending them to the coast is a good stakeholder engagement exercise. Either that, or they can’t be platformed at Brighton, which would be the other logical destination.
Kite159
Veteran Member
And no doubt for commuters from Three Bridges/Heath useful as they start at London Bridge compared with Thameslink which has come from further afield
Sussex Ben
Member
Absolutely. It’s the only way of getting a seat going southbound from London Bridge as Thameslink are already full and standing by that point.
Greenwich line rail cuts could be repeated in October, Thameslink warns - The Greenwich Wire
This summer’s timetable cuts to Greenwich line services could be repeated in October, Thameslink has warned, as passengers prepare for a reduced service to and from central London at the height of the tourist season.
greenwichwire.co.uk
Mattplans
Member
Class15
Established Member
There needs to be a co-ordinated effort to get people to cram onto the remaining Greenwich line services to prove that this cannot be repeated. People could be incentivised by being told their services could be cut too.