Policy about blatant fare evasion?

Shrop · 7 Jul 2026

Yesterday I witnessed two lads of around 14 years old, board a train for an intentionally free journey.

The train manager approached and asked for their ticket, to which they boldly and unashamedly said "We don't have any money".

They were well-spoken, reasonably well-dressed and it appeared for all the world that they were simply testing the train manager.

After trying in vain to tell them they couldn't board a train with no means of paying, the TM thought better of wasting his time, and continued to approach other passengers who were willing and able to pay.

So what should the TM do in that situation? It was clear that he had no backup, and no means of forcing the lads to pay, and at the next station they simply alighted after their free journey. They even made a point of giving the TM a wave, after their "victory".

Is this the way of the future for those prepared to challenge the system, and just what can train companies do about it?

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Harpo · 7 Jul 2026

Shrop said:
Yesterday I witnessed two lads of around 14 years old, board a train for an intentionally free journey.
The train manager approached and asked for their ticket, to which they boldly and unashamedly said "We don't have any money".
They were well spoken, reasonably well dressed and it appeared for all the world that they were simply testing the train manager.
After trying in vain to tell them they couldn't board a train with no means of paying, the TM thought better of wasting his time, and continued to approach other passengers who were willing and able to pay.
So what should the TM do in that situation? It was clear that he had no backup, and no means of forcing the lads to pay, and at the next station they simply alighted after their free journey. They even made a point of giving the TM a wave, after their "victory".
Is this the way of the future for those prepared to challenge the system, and just what can train companies do about it?

Did the TM call in for support or the BTP? (The latter option has a fairly consistent outcome.)

We’ll probably never know.

skyhigh · 7 Jul 2026

Shrop said:
Is this the way of the future for those prepared to challenge the system, and just what can train companies do about it?

What do you think they should do about it?

Shrop · 7 Jul 2026

Harpo said:
Did the TM call in for support or the BTP? (The latter option has a fairly consistent outcome.)

We’ll probably never know.

I don't think he called for assistance. This was a fairly rural route with almost zero chance of any assistance at the next station, where the lads cheerfully got off.

And those lads looked like they knew this.

The exile · 7 Jul 2026

Shrop said:
I dont think he called for assistance. This was a fairly rural route with almost zero chance of any assistance at the next station, where the lads cheerfully got off.
And those lads looked like they knew this.

One of these days, particularly if they establish a pattern, they’ll discover you can’t rely on that!

styles · 7 Jul 2026

The exile said:
One of these days, particularly if they establish a pattern, they’ll discover you can’t rely on that!

I think this is it fundamentally. Like many other 'petty' crimes, it eventually catches up.

Shrop · 7 Jul 2026

skyhigh said:
What do you think they should do about it?

I wish I had an answer, but the law is heavily stacked in favour of young tearaways on this.

You often hear stories of law-abiding people getting quite traumatised by overzealous staff after making genuine mistakes, dishing out harsh penalties. But these young lads looked like they were just exploring options for further fare evasion knowing that even if there had been assistance at the next station, their punishment would have been very little.

And worthwhile for the notoriety they enjoy.

This must be a nightmare for staff, with UK culture and the law stacked this way.

styles · 7 Jul 2026

Shrop said:
This must be a nightmare for staff, with UK culture and the law stacked this way.

Quite likely the reason staff often don't bother. They want to get home to their family instead of aggro with blatant offenders.

Shrop · 7 Jul 2026

styles said:
I think this is it fundamentally. Like many other 'petty' crimes, it eventually catches up.

Their petty crimes may or may not eventually catch up. But will they care even if this happens?

Meanwhile, other passengers were quite dismayed to see this happening, but felt it was inappropriate to intervene, especially when these "minors" might have been very quick to allege some form of abuse.

But also, other school age passengers were watching and being given a lesson in how to beat the system.

Have we reached the point where we just tolerate such behaviour and simply hope it will go away, because it's "difficult" to tackle?

Harpo · 7 Jul 2026

Shrop said:
You often hear stories of law abiding people getting quite traumatised by over zealous staff after making genuine mistakes, dishing out harsh penalties.

But often in circumstances where the enforcement comes from rather more than an individual working alone. I hope and expect that the TOC concerned tells its staff to walk away when outnumbered.

Shrop said:
But these young lads looked like they were just exploring options for further fare evasion knowing that even if there had been assistance at the next station, their punishment would have been very little.

Doubtless. But the train’s operator has CCTV images of the boys, the time and places of their joining and leaving and possibly a bodycam too. Follow-up is possible if the appetite exists.

AlterEgo · 7 Jul 2026

Given we don't have police everywhere, what do you think should be done?

They're children so the options are limited as to what can be done with them. The guard is best off noting their presence, making sure they get off, and feeding the incident back to their manager.

SuspectUsual · 7 Jul 2026

Shrop said:
I wish I had an answer, but the law is heavily stacked in favour of young tearaways on this

These don’t sound like young tearaways to me, and based on what I’ve seen in west and north Yorkshire a lot of teenagers who routinely evade fares are “normal” kids from decent homes who just see train travel as something you don’t have to pay for.

Outside the peak, there are dozens between the upper Calder valley stations and Halifax, for example

Shrop · 7 Jul 2026

AlterEgo said:
Given we don't have police everywhere, what do you think should be done? They're children so the options are limited as to what can be done with them. The guard is best off noting their presence, making sure they get off, and feeding the incident back to their manager.

"Making sure they get off"??? How should he have done that when those lads were just wanting to rebel? If they chose to stay on the train against the TM's instructions, he would have simply had to allow it.

AlterEgo · 7 Jul 2026

Shrop said:
"Making sure they get off"??? How should he have done that when those lads were just wanting to rebel? If they chose to stay on the train against the TM's instructions, he would have simply had to allow it.

No, just making sure they get off and noting where and when they leave. That is basic duty of care to children.

Bletchleyite · 7 Jul 2026

SuspectUsual said:
These don’t sound like young tearaways to me, and based on what I’ve seen in west and north Yorkshire a lot of teenagers who routinely evade fares are “normal” kids from decent homes who just see train travel as something you don’t have to pay for.

Outside the peak, there are dozens between the upper Calder valley stations and Halifax, for example

The sort of people who would actually learn if not paying resulted in them being thrown off a few miles short of their destination and forced to walk...

We have created a society where actions far too often do not carry consequences for fear of causing offence or the risk they might trip over on the kerb if they have to walk a few miles in broad daylight. (I wouldn't advocate throwing 11 year olds off the last train in the middle of winter, by contrast).

Shrop · 7 Jul 2026

AlterEgo said:
No, just making sure they get off and noting where and when they leave. That is basic duty of care to children.

Why should the TM have the responsibility of exercising a duty of care to children?

Of course, he has to be reasonable with them, but why should he have to take notes about them too? He has more than enough to do already, taking fares from numerous people between stations only a few minutes apart.

And taking notes about them might lead to them (or their parents) finding some trumped-up allegation about invading their privacy, which is especially risky when involving minors ...

AlterEgo · 7 Jul 2026

Shrop said:
Why should the TM have the responsibility of exercising a duty of care to children? He has more than enough to do already, taking fares from numerous people between stations only a few minutes apart.

Because that is the law, basically. They are passengers on his train and he has a basic duty of care to all passengers whether they have paid or not.

This is especially the case where passengers are children. The duty of care is not that hard to uphold; in this case it is in noticing the passengers and their age, that they are misbehaving and unpredictable, possibly reporting it to the police, and their manager, and making sure to see when they have left the train.

It is up to the guard how they deem it best to keep everyone safe and discharge their duty of care, but it has to be founded in reason.

settlelad · 7 Jul 2026

Shrop said:
Yesterday I witnessed two lads of around 14 years old, board a train for an intentionally free journey.
The train manager approached and asked for their ticket, to which they boldly and unashamedly said "We don't have any money".
They were well spoken, reasonably well dressed and it appeared for all the world that they were simply testing the train manager.
After trying in vain to tell them they couldn't board a train with no means of paying, the TM thought better of wasting his time, and continued to approach other passengers who were willing and able to pay.
So what should the TM do in that situation? It was clear that he had no backup, and no means of forcing the lads to pay, and at the next station they simply alighted after their free journey. They even made a point of giving the TM a wave, after their "victory".
Is this the way of the future for those prepared to challenge the system, and just what can train companies do about it?

Hmmmm ... if I'd have been on the train as a passenger and observed the conversation and been on the ball and minded, and been able to take a video without identifying (e.g. from a few rows behind, so it didn't show the individuals concerned, as being hidden by the seatback, but recording the conversation), I'd have taken a video and posted it on the local village facebook page. Word gets round quite quickly, those 14 year olds have parents (who hopefully have more of a conscience, or won't want actions by what may be their children on facebook), and if there's a school that might be involved/connected, they won't like it either.

I've witnessed a couple of lunchtime drinkers disrupting a train service (on train and from on platform) and being abusive (spitting) to the TM, and when the train was terminated early at a later station, I went and spoke to the station manager and explained what I'd seen happen. No I wouldn't get involved in either altercation on train (too risky) but happy to do something so that those involved may have to account for their actions (particularly when it affects others).

Swedenorer · 7 Jul 2026

14 year olds do stupid things.

The railway makes it very easy for them to do stupid things on their property. That leaves their staff in an impossible position. But it is a position that is recognised in a SR General Appendix of 1937 where on board staff are cautioned in these cases to use their discretion, not to try and detain and to report such things upwards. Clearly this advice remains.

The TM here acted in the same way as he would have done with an adult refusing to pay or give a name and address. With discretion, knowing that the pair will be on CCTV quite legally most of the time anyway.

Covertly videoing and publishing by bystanders is not, I would have thought, to be recommended.

MotCO · 7 Jul 2026

I've often wondered if giving children free travel on buses, or indeed the Tyne and Wear Metro, as examples, encourages children not to pay fares when they are older. Being used to paying fares as a younger child will bake in the expectation that you always have to pay for your travel on public transport.

Tetchytyke · 7 Jul 2026

Kids will be kids. They don't have the pre-frontal cortex to fully assess risk and so they will do things like this. If they think they can save three quid to spend on something else then they'll be temped to try.

We've all bunked fares as kids (I know I have!) because a) why not keep the money for something else and b) it's a small thrill, especially if you're normally a good boy or girl.

Deerfold · 7 Jul 2026

Tetchytyke said:
Kids will be kids. They don't have the pre-frontal cortex to fully assess risk and so they will do things like this. If they think they can save three quid to spend on something else then they'll be temped to try.

We've all bunked fares as kids (I know I have!) because a) why not keep the money for something else and b) it's a small thrill, especially if you're normally a good boy or girl.

We haven't all. I caught trains and buses to school from the age of 11, for the first 4 years using pre-paid Saverstrips that had to be clipped to pay the fare. I remember feeling very guilty when I did a journey I didn't know the fare for, my boarding station was unmanned, I went 2 stops and the station I got off at had an unexpectedly closed ticket office. After that I had season tickets, so no possibility of evading a fare (other than renewing them late).

On the other hand, I do know of a fellow pupil who probably paid 1 day in 2 for his train.

yorkie · 7 Jul 2026

Tetchytyke said:
Kids will be kids. They don't have the pre-frontal cortex to fully assess risk and so they will do things like this. If they think they can save three quid to spend on something else then they'll be temped to try.

We've all bunked fares as kids (I know I have!) because a) why not keep the money for something else and b) it's a small thrill, especially if you're normally a good boy or girl.

Actually no, most kids would not do this; not in my experience. Maybe your area is different.

Shrop said:
Why should the TM have the responsibility of exercising a duty of care to children?

If someone doesn't want the responsibility of having a duty of care, then they would be advised not to apply for a role that requires a duty of care.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jul 2026 ==

The exile said:
One of these days, particularly if they establish a pattern, they’ll discover you can’t rely on that!

Agreed; I'd be logging it using the appropriate procedures, as I would assume there must be a means to log such occurrences.

I would assume/hope that TMs/OMBs/OBSs etc complete a safeguarding course, including matters such as 'county lines'. I'd say that incidents like this should be logged, as it could be part of a 'bigger picture'.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jul 2026 ==

Shrop said:
I wish I had an answer, but the law is heavily stacked in favour of young tearaways on this.

If you are suggesting the law should be changed, feel free to create a thread in the appropriate forum section with your suggestion.

Farang · 7 Jul 2026

Tetchytyke said:
Kids will be kids.

Not just kids. Two young males - 20ish at a guess - were pretending to tap in at an Oyster reader and making loud 'beep beep' noises, implying that the rest of us were fools for paying. But I'd touched in with my 60+ Oystercard. Small victories...

redreni · 7 Jul 2026

Shrop said:
I don't think he called for assistance. This was a fairly rural route with almost zero chance of any assistance at the next station, where the lads cheerfully got off.

And those lads looked like they knew this.

When I was a teenager we were members of the John Lewis country clubs. They used to have a billiards room with an unstaffed bar and an honesty box. I'm sure not every single drink was always paid for, but running it that way was cheaper than employing a barman. The fact they run an honour system and don't necessarily do anything about it when stuff goes missing, doesn't change the fact it's a crime if you steal something and you might get caught.

The situation on a lot of rural rail routes is like that. The revenue loss from fare evasion is less than the cost of strong enforcement.

Ergo, it's money well spent. Don't worry about it.

izvor · 7 Jul 2026

SuspectUsual said:
These don’t sound like young tearaways to me, and based on what I’ve seen in west and north Yorkshire a lot of teenagers who routinely evade fares are “normal” kids from decent homes who just see train travel as something you don’t have to pay for.

It's common, if not an epidemic, in the south-east as well, based on my travelling experience. Thameslink (south) is the worst - many stations barrier-free, full DOO, revenue checks as rare as hens' teeth. Stand and watch even at a station with barriers for a few minutes, especially at school times and holidays, and you are likely to witness numerous occasions of "following through", gate vaulting, gate forcing etc. It's very sad.

TUC · 8 Jul 2026

What would have been the approach in decades past when, if anything, it would have been much harder than now for on-train staff to contact the BTP or others for assistance?

Harpo · 8 Jul 2026

Goi

TUC said:
What would have been the approach in decades past when, if anything, it would have been much harder than now for on-train staff to contact the BTP or others for assistance?

Decades ago? Thinking back to my own youth there were barrier staff at every single station on my local route with no revenue protection on the trains.

Bletchleyite · 8 Jul 2026

TUC said:
What would have been the approach in decades past when, if anything, it would have been much harder than now for on-train staff to contact the BTP or others for assistance?

The guard would have grabbed the kids by the scruff of the neck and thrown them off. Immediate consequences.

The issue we have now is that that would result in the sack as 17.9999 year olds are considered vulnerable little cherubs. They are vulnerable to some things, e.g. sexual advances in bad faith (or worse), but not really to being thrown off a train.

AlterEgo · 8 Jul 2026

It didn't happen about 25 years ago, I used to do Milton Keynes to Leighton Buzzard on the last train when I was about 15 or 16. No barriers in operation and you could pull out the bins between seats on the Class 321s and hide behind them, pulling them back in on yourself once you'd hidden.

Policy about blatant fare evasion?

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