Itapped on an didnt realized tapping out outside zone. Berkhamstead to Milton Keynes central.

AndyMX · 5 Jul 2026

I tapped on an didnt realized tapping out of outside zone. Berkhamstead to Milton Keynes central. Have had 3 appeals rejected.

Have had 3 appeals rejected. I did not delibrately evade paying for travel.

A ticket inspector scaned my card and was ok. 2 Stops lated at MK my card was rejected at the barriers
where inforcement officers gave me a ticket. They siad i should be ok as I didnt know. This was my first
time on this route. This was a genuine mistake.

I am thinking to defend in court should i get a summonds. I am inside 14 days to pay still.

Many thanks for any advise.

RailUK Forums

signed · 5 Jul 2026

Please post a redacted copy of all the documents you have

If you got a penalty fare and exhausted your 3 appeals there is nothing you can do anymore bar paying and you should absolutely be paying to avoid getting dragged to civil court

The whole point of penalty fares is a medium sanctions for mistakes

tatitiliti · 5 Jul 2026

signed said:
Please post a redacted copy of all the documents you have

If you got a penalty fare and exhausted your 3 appeals there is nothing you can do anymore bar paying and you should absolutely be paying to avoid getting dragged to civil court

The whole point of penalty fares is a medium sanctions for mistakes

Wasn’t there a case recently where a judge still authorised prosecutions following unsuccessful PF appeals?

Flying Snail · 5 Jul 2026

AndyMX said:
I tapped on an didnt realized tapping out of outside zone. Berkhamstead to Milton Keynes central. Have had 3 appeals rejected.

Have had 3 appeals rejected. I did not delibrately evade paying for travel.

A ticket inspector scaned my card and was ok. 2 Stops lated at MK my card was rejected at the barriers
where inforcement officers gave me a ticket. They siad i should be ok as I didnt know. This was my first
time on this route. This was a genuine mistake.

I am thinking to defend in court should i get a summonds. I am inside 14 days to pay still.

Many thanks for any advise.

The only sensible advice is to pay the Penalty Fare and be more careful in the future.

The question over whether you meant to evade is irrelevant, it does not matter if it was a genuine mistake or not you are still liable to pay the PF.

It is YOUR responsibility to have the correct ticket for journeys you make and to only use contactless within it's area of validity.

AndyMX · 5 Jul 2026

I am prepared to go to court on this one. Do you know of any outcomes in these cases.

signed · 5 Jul 2026

AndyMX said:
I am prepared to go to court on this one. Do you know of any outcomes in these cases.

Being deliberate or not is not a factor, those ticketing matters are strict liability offenses

I.E If you did it, even once, even with mitigators, you are guilty as far as the law is concerned, and the law is the only thing in concern right now

Please pay and take it as a warning, it could have been worse had you been referred for prosecution and needed to poney up £150 + the fare (or prosecuted if you didn’t engage for a out of court settlement)

Crithylum · 5 Jul 2026

https://www.londonnorthwesternrailway.co.uk/media/45035/download?inline

It is pretty clear that contactless is not valid to Milton Keynes. You would lose if it went to court.

tatitiliti · 5 Jul 2026

AndyMX said:
I tapped on an didnt realized tapping out of outside zone. Berkhamstead to Milton Keynes central. Have had 3 appeals rejected.

Have had 3 appeals rejected. I did not delibrately evade paying for travel.

A ticket inspector scaned my card and was ok. 2 Stops lated at MK my card was rejected at the barriers
where inforcement officers gave me a ticket. They siad i should be ok as I didnt know. This was my first
time on this route. This was a genuine mistake.

I am thinking to defend in court should i get a summonds. I am inside 14 days to pay still.

Many thanks for any advise.

If you’d posted the penalty fare notice on here before wasting three clearly poorly-conceived appeals on it, we might’ve been able to find a technicality that would void it, or inadequate signage if applicable. PFs are issued routinely incorrectly and many stations have inadequate or non-compliant signage.

I’d strongly advise paying up now, because you will likely lose in court. And my advice is coming from someone who loves to argue the toss and would always choose to go to court if it’s likely in my strategic interest to do so!

John R · 5 Jul 2026

AndyMX said:
I am prepared to go to court on this one. Do you know of any outcomes in these cases.

Think of it this way. If you are caught breaking the speed limit, because you missed the sign, or your speed crept up without you realising. Would you win, because it wasn’t deliberate?

No, you wouldn’t. It’s exactly the same here. You will lose, and simply incur additional costs.

furlong · 5 Jul 2026

Please post all the details so people can comment on how enforceable the specific PF actually is.

In the absence of more information, at this stage, this is one for Transport Focus, referencing the ORR's review.
E.g. 3.67

Our engagement with industry as well as our experience shadowing revenue protection teams indicates that there is confusion among some passengers
regarding Oyster and Contactless payment rules around boundary stations. This confusion could result in some passengers being penalised. It is therefore clear
that passengers would benefit from better and timely information about the options for different payment methods, when they are available and the key T&Cs which
apply to their journey.

and 4.45/4.46

In the above case, if the staff member recognised there was no intent, they could have allowed the passenger to pay the excess fare rather than penalising them (and potentially recorded the incident, so if there are repeat cases the passenger might not be given the benefit of the doubt). That would have addressed the
revenue loss to the TOC from the mistake. It is hard to see any objective benefit in penalising the passenger beyond this, unless the staff member remained
unconvinced that it was a mistake, or the staff member felt they simply were enforcing the TOC’s policy.

SCDR_WMR · 5 Jul 2026

furlong said:
Please post all the details so people can comment on how enforceable the specific PF actually is.

In the absence of more information, at this stage, this is one for Transport Focus, referencing the ORR's review.
E.g. 3.67

and 4.45/4.46

It is very clear at intermediate stations between Euston and Bletchley where the boundaries of the scheme end. I would understand if that was an out of area excursion, but this has been in operation for a decent length of time, and was advertised at stations for almost 2 years prior to it's launch due to delays.

WesternLancer · 5 Jul 2026

AndyMX said:
I am thinking to defend in court should i get a summonds. I am inside 14 days to pay still.

Many thanks for any advise.

I wouldn’t do that unless you are legally qualified yourself or wish to employ a lawyer to help you.

Almost certain you will lose and even without employing legal help it will then end up costing you way way more than what you are being asked to pay now.

My advice is to check more carefully where the contactless and oyster boundaries are before you travel.

Sorry about this.

AlterEgo · 5 Jul 2026

AndyMX said:
I am prepared to go to court on this one. Do you know of any outcomes in these cases.

I strongly advise you don't go to court. You did commit a criminal offence, one of strict liability. That means it is not relevant whether you intended to do it or not, just like speeding. You will therefore be found guilty, be fined, have to pay the avoided fare, the prosecution costs and a surcharge. You will also get a criminal record.

You should pay the penalty fare promptly and seek redress using @furlong's advice which is the best way to a resolution in your case.

WesternLancer · 5 Jul 2026

AndyMX said:
I am prepared to go to court on this one. Do you know of any outcomes in these cases.

Yes. You can find occasional other threads on here with this sort of thing.
Outcome is bailiffs coming to your address to obtain court debt which by the time that happens might be nearer to £500 owed. Assuming you don’t pay the sum the court would deem you owe promptly (the cases I recall on here involved people who ignored it all, which of course you are not doing g as you’ve tried to use the appeal process )

AndyMX · 5 Jul 2026

John R said:
Think of it this way. If you are caught breaking the speed limit, because you missed the sign, or your speed crept up without you realising. Would you win, because it wasn’t deliberate?

No, you wouldn’t. It’s exactly the same here. You will lose, and simply incur additional costs.

If there is only a machine with a yellow dot to tap on a no signs or notices on where the route ends, its jointly the train companies
error. They have no signs or information on the train. The ticket inspector on the train who checked my card didnt comment either and
validated my card.

This is not a safety aspect as in driving but common sense.

I didnt evade buying a ticket, i have proof from TFL contactless log and even inspector time on the train. i paid £13 something on my bank statement. Mk was the last stop anyway.

There was around 8 revenue inspectors on MK platform barriers, i wonder why£££££ this reminds me of the The Single Justice Procedure (SJP) Scandal Refunds.

If i came on here and told you i deliberately got a false ticket, a child ticket or something you would be all telling me oh poor you
dont do it again.

I will defend win or loose in court.

Crithylum · 5 Jul 2026

I didn’t take a photo, but I’m quite sure that above the doors they have a route map showing contactless isn’t valid beyond Bletchley.

WesternLancer · 5 Jul 2026

AndyMX said:
If there is only a machine with a yellow dot to tap on a no signs or notices on where the route ends, its jointly the train companies
error. They have no signs or information on the train. The ticket inspector on the train who checked my card didnt comment either and
validated my card.

This is not a safety aspect as in driving but common sense.

I didnt evade buying a ticket, i have proof from TFL contactless log and even inspector time on the train. i paid £13 something on my bank statement. Mk was the last stop anyway.

There was around 8 revenue inspectors on MK platform barriers, i wonder why£££££ this reminds me of the The Single Justice Procedure (SJP) Scandal Refunds.

If i came on here and told you i deliberately got a false ticket, a child ticket or something you would be all telling me oh poor you
dont do it again.

I will defend win or loose in court.

Thanks for this and good luck.

It would be really helpful to the forum and especially to others who come here in future (going beyond contactless boundary is a type of problem that crops up from time to time on here ) if you could keep us updated as things progress.

It’s particularly helpful to hear how things like this play out in court and not everyone lets us know.

I for one would be interested in updates in due course.

Good luck with it.

AlterEgo · 5 Jul 2026

AndyMX said:
If there is only a machine with a yellow dot to tap on a no signs or notices on where the route ends, its jointly the train companies
error. They have no signs or information on the train. The ticket inspector on the train who checked my card didnt comment either and
validated my card.

This is not a safety aspect as in driving but common sense.

I didnt evade buying a ticket, i have proof from TFL contactless log and even inspector time on the train. i paid £13 something on my bank statement. Mk was the last stop anyway.

There was around 8 revenue inspectors on MK platform barriers, i wonder why£££££ this reminds me of the The Single Justice Procedure (SJP) Scandal Refunds.

If i came on here and told you i deliberately got a false ticket, a child ticket or something you would be all telling me oh poor you
dont do it again.

I will defend win or loose in court.

As has already been advised, you will lose in court. So don't take that route. If you are dead set on doing this, well good luck to you, though it remains confusing why you posted here specifically asking for advice.

AndyMX · 5 Jul 2026

AlterEgo said:
I strongly advise you don't go to court. You did commit a criminal offence, one of strict liability. That means it is not relevant whether you intended to do it or not, just like speeding. You will therefore be found guilty, be fined, have to pay the avoided fare, the prosecution costs and a surcharge. You will also get a criminal record.

You should pay the penalty fare promptly and seek redress using @furlong's advice which is the best way to a resolution in your case.

A criminal offence??? tapping on, the company took my money, this is a civil matter.
I made a genuine mistake. This is a train ticket, i didnt run somebody over.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2026 ==

AlterEgo said:
As has already been advised, you will lose in court. So don't take that route. If you are dead set on doing this, well good luck to you, though it remains confusing why you posted here specifically asking for advice.

You dont know any figures of these cases going to court, so how do you know I will loose in court.

You dont have any advise

AlterEgo · 5 Jul 2026

AndyMX said:
A criminal offence??? tapping on, the company took my money, this is a civil matter.
I made a genuine mistake. This is a train ticket, i didnt run somebody over.

No, it's a strict liability criminal offence, same as speeding. You don't need to intend to commit it to be guilty. There is no dispute that you didn't have the correct ticket and you travelled beyond the validity of your ticket. There are a number of different areas of law the company can use to prosecute you. The chief magistrate unhelpfully ruled a little while ago that the railway can still prosecute you even if you appeal a penalty fare. Even if it remains civil, you still are better off following @furlong's advice already posted.

AndyMX · 5 Jul 2026

WesternLancer said:
Thanks for this and good luck.

It would be really helpful to the forum and especially to others who come here in future (going beyond contactless boundary is a type of problem that crops up from time to time on here ) if you could keep us updated as things progress.

It’s particularly helpful to hear how things like this play out in court and not everyone lets us know.

I for one would be interested in updates in due course.

Good luck with it.

Thank you i will update if i decide, i cant belive the distiportional fine for a mistake, but iam not a big train user.
Your the only one on here with a bit of reasonable sense on here.

WesternLancer · 5 Jul 2026

AndyMX said:
A criminal offence??? tapping on, the company took my money, this is a civil matter.
I made a genuine mistake. This is a train ticket, i didnt run somebody over.

Unfortunately failing to have a valid ticket on a train in England is a criminal offence. Beyond the contactless boundary I don’t think you will have had a valid ticket.

Various laws with a history dating back to Victorian era aiui.

You may not think it should be and I’m sure plenty of people on here will agree, but that’s a matter to raise with your MP, not one the magistrates court will engage with afaik. But again please feed back when you’ve been to court with it.

AlterEgo · 5 Jul 2026

AndyMX said:
You dont know any figures of these cases going to court, so how do you know I will loose in court.

You dont have any advise

It is a strict liability offence. If you wish to be combative that is up to you but you came here looking for advice and you've received it. You did commit a criminal offence. You do not even dispute this, you accept the ticket is not valid. Again: *NO INTENT* is necessary on your part to commit the offence.

This is like speeding. If you make a mistake, you are guilty of the offence. Whether you meant to or not is literally immaterial.

There's my advice, you can like it or not but there is a reason everyone in the thread is saying the same thing.

Once more, you are best off paying and seeking redress under the avenue @furlong posted, which is most helpful.

furlong · 5 Jul 2026

If you're seeking specific help, please upload the penalty fare (minus personal details) and your appeals and responses to the appeals. It wouldn't be unusual for a PF in a case like this to have been imposed incorrectly.

The starting point (assuming this was a Penalty Fare) here is civil action not a prosecution. However train companies have a strong preference for prosecution, relying on people not wanting to pay solicitors to argue in court why they can't (a PF appeal was decided) or to handle your defence (they often pick the wrong charge, and their evidence to prove the correct one may be open to challenge).

Flying Snail · 5 Jul 2026

AndyMX said:
A criminal offence??? tapping on, the company took my money, this is a civil matter.
I made a genuine mistake. This is a train ticket, i didnt run somebody over.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2026 ==

You dont know any figures of these cases going to court, so how do you know I will loose in court.

You dont have any advise

Fare evasion is a criminal offence and you do not have to have had the intent to evade for it to be proved, the act of evasion itself, which you absolutely did, is enough.

You aren't getting the advice you want because you are looking for people to tell you you are right, you won't get the result you want if you are stupid enough to go to court, the people there will not care to tell you what you want.

The regular posters on this forum know a LOT more about the system then you do and they spend a lot of time on here advising people on the best way to deal with their predicaments. Take their advice or don't.

WesternLancer · 5 Jul 2026

AndyMX said:
Thank you i will update if i decide, i cant belive the distiportional fine for a mistake, but iam not a big train user.
You’re the only one on here with a bit of reasonable sense on here.

To be fair to others people with lots of experience are saying how they expect this to play out. As I did in my earlier post.
That’s the best advice people can give really, ie to advise people what is expected to happen, based on seeing various other cases.
But that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t challenge it if you feel it’s wrong.
What we can do though is tell you how we expect it to play out and the consequences of that for you (usually costs wise).

We do however get occasional cases on here where the passenger concerned follows it through and gets a different result. And most importantly tells the forum that is what happened.

Not sure I can recall one about boundary over travel
Mistakes but that’s doesn’t mean you might not pull it off. And of course the great majority of fares problems that happen every day never make it to this forum.

furlong · 5 Jul 2026

AlterEgo said:
It is a strict liability offence.

Careful - there are many technicalities here, even disregarding the assumed penalty fare appeal. (This isn't their favourite boarding without a valid ticket.)

CheapAndNerdy · 5 Jul 2026

Hypothetically, if the penalty fare was withdrawn due to non-payment and criminal proceedings instigated instead, what would be the offence? As far as I can see the bye-laws are focussed on entering the train without a valid ticket and RORA 1899 talks about "knowingly and wilfully" travelling beyond the bounds of a ticket, and on the face of it neither of those situations apply here. That being the case, the only remedy would be civil action for non-payment of the penalty fare.

AlterEgo · 5 Jul 2026

CheapAndNerdy said:
Hypothetically, if the penalty fare was withdrawn due to non-payment and criminal proceedings instigated instead, what would be the offence? As far as I can see the bye-laws are focussed on entering the train without a valid ticket and RORA 1899 talks about "knowingly and wilfully" travelling beyond the bounds of a ticket, and on the face of it neither of those situations apply here. That being the case, the only remedy would be civil action for non-payment of the penalty fare.

RoRA may well be proven by actions, the passenger having travelled beyond the payment of their fare. Merely walking past an open ticket office was always sufficient to prove this in the past.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/8-9/20/section/103 requires only neglect on the part of the passenger when overtravelling. That is, they wilfully did not check whether their ticket was valid, for example.

tatitiliti · 5 Jul 2026

AndyMX said:
Thank you i will update if i decide, i cant belive the distiportional fine for a mistake, but iam not a big train user.
You’re the only one on here with a bit of reasonable sense on here.

He’s advised you the same thing as the rest of us (who have no reasonable sense) to not go to court, but asked you to please keep us updated when you lose.

Itapped on an didnt realized tapping out outside zone. Berkhamstead to Milton Keynes central.

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