Fitzwilliam Ticket Machines

S101 · 24 Jun 2026

Morning all. Asking for a friend, with what seems to be a very overzealous conductor. Fitzwilliam Station only has a ticket machine on the actual platform of the Leeds bound platform. Friend, who boarded the 1045 to Doncaster didn't walk right over and down to the Leeds bound platform to get a promise to pay, then walk back over and down to the Doncaster bound platform. The guard was going to do my friend for not getting a promise to pay, and penalty fare her. She had all intention of buying a ticket, didn't hide in the bog or evade payment. He withdrew when it was pointed out there is no machine. No problem. But what actually is the etiquette for such a station when the machine is positioned as stated?

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Watershed · 24 Jun 2026

If there is a machine anywhere at the station, under the Byelaws and Penalty Fares Regulations it must be used to buy a ticket or obtain a Promise to Pay Notice before boarding, if it supports the valid method of payment intended to be used. Otherwise a Penalty Fare can be imposed or a prosecution brought (or at best, the Anytime fare charged without any Railcard discount).

There are certainly worse examples such as Kiveton Bridge or Park (I forget which) where there is only a TVM on one platform but the only way between them is via a level crossing. The problems with that are obvious...

Northern don't seem to think it's important to provide enough TVMs, to use clear signage to point out the location of the TVM, or to make it obvious that it is a TVM rather than an advertising display. This has caught out many people before so unfortunately your friend is far from the first to be caught out.

S101 · 24 Jun 2026

Watershed said:
If there is a machine anywhere at the station, under the Byelaws and Penalty Fares Regulations it must be used to buy a ticket or obtain a Promise to Pay Notice before boarding, if it supports the valid method of payment intended to be used. Otherwise a Penalty Fare can be imposed or a prosecution brought (or at best, the Anytime fare charged without any Railcard discount).

There are certainly worse examples such as Kiveton Bridge or Park (I forget which) where there is only a TVM on one platform but the only way between them is via a level crossing. The problems with that are obvious...

Northern don't seem to think it's important to provide enough TVMs, to use clear signage to point out the location of the TVM, or to make it obvious that it is a TVM rather than an advertising display. This has caught out many people before so unfortunately your friend is far from the first to be caught out.

Well, he didn't actually do her, but jesus, it's not like she wasn't going to purchase a ticket. Bring on Driver Only Operation!

Trainman40083 · 24 Jun 2026

S101 said:
Well, he didn't actually do her, but jesus, it's not like she wasn't going to purchase a ticket. Bring on Driver Only Operation!

Surely driver only operation will just leave the guard more time to check tickets .

ainsworth74 · 24 Jun 2026

S101 said:
Well, he didn't actually do her, but jesus, it's not like she wasn't going to purchase a ticket. Bring on Driver Only Operation!

Guards can't issue Penalty Fares only revenue inspectors so a DOO train would leave someone just as vulnerable. Indeed if it had been an actual conductor they'd have just issued the ticket (perhaps with a warning about being vulnerable to a PF)...

Watershed · 24 Jun 2026

S101 said:
Well, he didn't actually do her, but jesus, it's not like she wasn't going to purchase a ticket.

The way that Northern will see it is that there isn't an easy way of telling apart someone who intends to "pay when challenged" from someone in your friend's position.

That being said, I certainly have sympathy with her, as the current signage is generally not clear enough on the implications of not buying a ticket before boarding, and where to find the ticket machine.

S101 said:
Bring on Driver Only Operation!

The method of operation of the doors doesn't have a direct connection with the staffing onboard. Southeastern High Speed services and many ScotRail services in the Strathclyde area operate as DOO under the Rule Book but with a member of customer facing staff, without whom the train will be cancelled. Many Southern services outside the London area must have an Onboard Supervisor rostered. Similarly, Greater Anglia 745 and 755s operate DOO but in most areas require a guard to be present nonetheless.

In fact from the sounds of things this may well have been a Revenue Protection member of staff, who you will of course see across all trains - DOO or not.

WesternLancer · 24 Jun 2026

I suppose one way to look at it is like in the ‘good old days’ of staffed stations (all stations) you’d get a ticket office on one side only and be expected to use that before getting on a platform, level crossing or footbridge.

Having TVM on one side only is just like that, it’s just that it’s an automated’ticket office’

Obviously the world has changed a lot since then, but there’s some logic to it…

Iskra · 25 Jun 2026

WesternLancer said:
I suppose one way to look at it is like in the ‘good old days’ of staffed stations (all stations) you’d get a ticket office on one side only and be expected to use that before getting on a platform, level crossing or footbridge.

Having TVM on one side only is just like that, it’s just that it’s an automated’ticket office’

Obviously the world has changed a lot since then, but there’s some logic to it…

But, in those days there was also more likely to be a convenient barrow crossing. Some TVM's are a very long way around from the opposite platform. Chapeltown, South Yorkshire being one example.

Of course, most passengers would just buy on their phone rather than walk round, so while it is an issue it's an ever-declining one and probably not worth a significant financial investment to duplicate TVM's. At least the TVM at Fitzwilliam is on the platform from which most people are likely to depart from.

WesternLancer · 25 Jun 2026

Iskra said:
But, in those days there was also more likely to be a convenient barrow crossing. Some TVM's are a very long way around from the opposite platform. Chapeltown, South Yorkshire being one example.

Of course, most passengers would just buy on their phone rather than walk round, so while it is an issue it's an ever-declining one and probably not worth a significant financial investment to duplicate TVM's. At least the TVM at Fitzwilliam is on the platform from which most people are likely to depart from.

All good points of course.

soccermad · 25 Jun 2026

The position are Worksop is the same where the TVM and Ticket Office are on the Sheffield / Nottingham bound platform and it is a footbridge or level crossing to reach the other platform

Spaceship323 · 27 Jun 2026

soccermad said:
The position are Worksop is the same where the TVM and Ticket Office are on the Sheffield / Nottingham bound platform and it is a footbridge or level crossing to reach the other platform

The side you pass anyway if walking up from the town, you can go right past the TVM if you want to

Dave_D · 29 Jun 2026

Hamstead (Birmingham) has (or had) a similar problem.

If you go down to the platform for the Wallsal bound train, you would have to climb back up the stairs to right on the main road take the next road on the right then turn right again and then go down a ramp to the Wolverhampton bound platform which has a ticket machine.

You would then have to reverse your journey to get back to your train.

Even if there was no queue at the machine, this could easily take 5 to 10 minutes.

I wonder what appetite the railway company would have prosecution if somebody refused a penalty fare offered this as a defence.

ainsworth74 · 29 Jun 2026

Dave_D said:
I wonder what appetite the railway company would have prosecution if somebody refused a penalty fare offered this as a defence.

For a Byelaw 18 prosecution? Well they'd have a slam-dunk so possibly quite high!

Dave_D · 29 Jun 2026

Ainsworth, happy to bow to your greater knowledge, I’m just surprised that the railway company and the courts would expect somebody to go down to the platform (not knowing that there was no machine there) and then expect them to climb back up the street level leave the station, go round the corner and then do the same thing in reverse.

I would have thought that at very least it would certainly be mitigating circumstances.

Even on the national rail website it say that they will:

“

We will provide a range of ways in which you can buy a Ticket before your journey and will ensure that you are treated fairly if you are unable to purchase a Ticket because advertised facilities are unavailable.”

35B · 29 Jun 2026

Dave_D said:
Ainsworth, happy to bow to your greater knowledge, I’m just surprised that the railway company and the courts would expect somebody to go down to the platform (not knowing that there was no machine there) and then expect them to climb back up the street level leave the station, go round the corner and then do the same thing in reverse.

I would have thought that at very least it would certainly be mitigating circumstances.

Even on the national rail website it say that they will:

“

We will provide a range of ways in which you can buy a Ticket before your journey and will ensure that you are treated fairly if you are unable to purchase a Ticket because advertised facilities are unavailable.”

The range of ways are available (multiple websites and apps), and there's no suggestion that the advertised facilities were unavailable. Inaccessible and inconvenient, yes, but not unavailable.

Dave_D · 29 Jun 2026

35B said:
The range of ways are available (multiple websites and apps), and there's no suggestion that the advertised facilities were unavailable. Inaccessible and inconvenient, yes, but not unavailable.

I agree, but is there a point where inconvenience becomes unavailability?

35B · 29 Jun 2026

Dave_D said:
I agree, but is there a point where inconvenience becomes unavailability?

We're deviating, but much would depend on the nature of the inconvenience and the context of the person inconvenienced.

ainsworth74 · 29 Jun 2026

Dave_D said:
Ainsworth, happy to bow to your greater knowledge, I’m just surprised that the railway company and the courts would expect somebody to go down to the platform (not knowing that there was no machine there) and then expect them to climb back up the street level leave the station, go round the corner and then do the same thing in reverse.

Problem is that Byelaw 18 is strict liability! Did you have a valid ticket? If no, you're guilty of an offence and there is no mitigation/defence. It's quite a binary question. There are three exceptions which do give you a defence:

(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or
validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where,
that person began their journey; or
(ii) there was a notice at the station where that person began their
journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket;
or
(iii) an authorised person gave that person permission to travel
without a valid ticket

The TVM might be a hike to access but if it was working then...

I agree it's most unsatisfactory but I can't easily see why you wouldn't fall foul of Byelaw 18 in this scenario I'm afraid to say.

saismee · 2 Jul 2026

Dave_D said:
Hamstead (Birmingham) has (or had) a similar problem.

If you go down to the platform for the Wallsal bound train, you would have to climb back up the stairs to right on the main road take the next road on the right then turn right again and then go down a ramp to the Wolverhampton bound platform which has a ticket machine.

You would then have to reverse your journey to get back to your train.

Even if there was no queue at the machine, this could easily take 5 to 10 minutes.

I wonder what appetite the railway company would have prosecution if somebody refused a penalty fare offered this as a defence.

My local station has a TVM on only one platform, but the entrances do say where it is. It's also irrelevant as it's served by pay-train services so you don't need to use it in either direction.

Starmill · 3 Jul 2026

If there were absolutely no evidence of the machine at all, and no reasonable person would have found it, then you could perhaps use that as a defence, or argue that to enforce the Byelaw is an irrationality. But if there are signs at the station saying "You can buy a ticket on our app, from the ticket machine" etc then that argument would completely fall apart. You would generally find this argument incredibly difficult to make.

1D54 · 3 Jul 2026

And that takes us to the mobile phone subject which crops up all the time.. No phone, no access to app so no ticket.

Fawkes Cat · 3 Jul 2026

1D54 said:
And that takes us to the mobile phone subject which crops up all the time.. No phone, no access to app so no ticket.

Although how is not having your phone on you/charged/working fundamentally any different from turning up at the station and finding that you've left your cash at home/fell out of your pocket? In both cases, you're prevented from getting a ticket - and in both cases it's not self-evidently the railway's fault.

njamescouk · 3 Jul 2026

35B said:
The range of ways are available (multiple websites and apps), and there's no suggestion that the advertised facilities were unavailable. Inaccessible and inconvenient, yes, but not unavailable.

customer service, railway style! if you can afford a car, get one, it's much nicer.

Cell2025 · 3 Jul 2026

For reasons I can't fathom Bramley (West Yorks) highlights the problem. There's a machine on the Leeds facing platform but not on the side heading to Bradford. If you don't know you would have to walk about 120 yards up a slope to find out there is no machine. There IS a sign at the bottom but I'm not sure that it prioritises the information.

You'd have to go back down the slope (which is quite steep, so challenging at the best of times for people less able to walk), cross a very busy road, walk uphill about 75 yards on a narrow pavement and then climb a load of steps to find your way to the TVM adjacent to the Leeds bound platform. And then reverse it all to get back to the platform. It's a ten minute job, and isn't immediately obvious that there is no ticket machine at the top.

Bramley

I know it's only a small station in the wider picture, but the distance from platform to platform, including a busy road with just a zebra crossing, makes the lack of a machine a bit difficult to fathom.

Fawkes Cat · 3 Jul 2026

Cell2025 said:
I know it's only a small station in the wider picture, but the distance from platform to platform, including a busy road with just a zebra crossing, makes the lack of a machine a bit difficult to fathom.

How much do ticket machines cost to (a) acquire (b) install (c) maintain?

Haywain · 3 Jul 2026

Fawkes Cat said:
How much do ticket machines cost to (a) acquire (b) install (c) maintain?

When I was involved in a project to install new TVMs 10 to 12 years ago, and the TVMs had been purchased in bulk by a new franchisee, a Card-only TVM was costing around £10,000 and I imagine that will have increased quite a bit now and if you are not buying 180 or so machines at one go there are not going to be discounts for bulk buying. As for costs of installation, how long is a piece of string? There are many factors to consider and no two locations will be the same. Maintenance figures I can't remember as they weren't part of my project. Of course, maintenance doesn't include things like the support of ensuring they are topped up with ticket stock or having to deal with repairs after they've been vandalised. And all the suppliers have got you over a barrel for any software changes after you've bought their machines so you get caned for needing anything updated outside the routine.

Fawkes Cat · 3 Jul 2026

Haywain said:
When I was involved in a project to install new TVMs 10 to 12 years ago, and the TVMs had been purchased in bulk by a new franchisee, a Card-only TVM was costing around £10,000 and I imagine that will have increased quite a bit now and if you are not buying 180 or so machines at one go there are not going to be discounts for bulk buying. As for costs of installation, how long is a piece of string? There are many factors to consider and no two locations will be the same. Maintenance figures I can't remember as they weren't part of my project. Of course, maintenance doesn't include things like the support of ensuring they are topped up with ticket stock or having to deal with repairs after they've been vandalised. And all the suppliers have got you over a barrel for any software changes after you've bought their machines so you get caned for needing anything updated outside the routine.

So a TVM would have to (to use an economist's term) do a fair amount of trade to cover its costs. Which goes some way to explaining why there aren't machines on every platform of every station.

Cell2025 · 3 Jul 2026

Haywain said:
When I was involved in a project to install new TVMs 10 to 12 years ago, and the TVMs had been purchased in bulk by a new franchisee, a Card-only TVM was costing around £10,000 and I imagine that will have increased quite a bit now and if you are not buying 180 or so machines at one go there are not going to be discounts for bulk buying. As for costs of installation, how long is a piece of string? There are many factors to consider and no two locations will be the same. Maintenance figures I can't remember as they weren't part of my project. Of course, maintenance doesn't include things like the support of ensuring they are topped up with ticket stock or having to deal with repairs after they've been vandalised. And all the suppliers have got you over a barrel for any software changes after you've bought their machines so you get caned for needing anything updated outside the routine.

Fawkes Cat said:
How much do ticket machines cost to (a) acquire (b) install (c) maintain?

I think you have to see this set up to understand. It's on a big hill, there's a major (as in very busy) road between the two and it's 75-100 yards from the bottom of a 125 yard slope on one platform to go up 15 steps before you get to the machine, if you even knew it was there. The link I posted explains it with some good images.

The long walk up to the platform without a TVM.

Looking the other way from the slope uphill to the stairs beyond when the car is(picture below) where the TVM now is (not shown in that link). For lesser abled people it's probably 20 minutes from starting the journey up the slope, finding no machine, coming back down, crossing the road, going even longer up the hill to avoid the stairs, buying the ticket and then doing it in reverse. I'd be fairly confident in arguing that provision was inadequate if push came to shove.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jul 2026 ==

Fawkes Cat said:
So a TVM would have to (to use an economist's term) do a fair amount of trade to cover its costs. Which goes some way to explaining why there aren't machines on every platform of every station.

My point about Bramley, certainly, is that it really is quite a trek from one platform to the TVM and it's not immediately obvious if there's one at all, and where it might be. Indeed if you didn't know you could be mistaken externally for thinking there was only one platform as the entrance to each of them is totally obscured from the other. If they insist on passengers buying a ticket in advance and not on a train then they should make reasonable attempts to ensure that when only one machine is viable it should be easy for passengers going both ways to use.

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