That's still 10 years of use on the 840, refurbishing them is only going to extend their useful life by a few years, as I said, you can only kick the can so far down the road.
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Transdev Blazefield
- Thread starter RustySpoons
- Start date
That's still 10 years of use on the 840, refurbishing them is only going to extend their useful life by a few years, as I said, you can only kick the can so far down the road.
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R
RailUK Forums
People do tend to over exaggerate on forums like this though. They say a fleet is unreliable and talk as if the entire fleet is broken down at the side of the road on a daily basis which I’m sure it isn’t.
That isn't what is being suggested though.
The current Coastliner fleet have had 10+ years of use on very arduous routes, this causes reliability issues as the vehicles age that only get worse the older they get.
Leedsbusman
Member
He’s right though - buses that get condemned as underpowered and unsuitable seemed to have managed to survive nearly ten years! You’ve no evidence to say they are suffering more problems with age. According to bustimes 12/13 have worked today.
stevieinselby
Established Member
The main evidence that Transdev don't want to get rid of the 840 is that they are still running the 840.
The issues in the past were around the pitiful remuneration rates for ENCTS passes.
I could be wrong but I would expect the 840 would cope just fine with single deckers if they ran an enhanced timetable on weekends from Easter/start of April to the end of October, plus weekdays during school holidays, with a couple of additional journeys extended from Thornton le Dale through to Whitby.
If they are only running on non-schooldays then it may not even need any extra buses in the fleet if it's within the higher PVR needed for school and college buses. The extra mileage and driver costs could be offset by lower purchase and running costs.
About 25 years ago, Coastliner amended the 840/842 to drop the diversion via Castle Howard and to avoid the low bridge near Goathland so that they could use double deckers, partly for increased capacity and partly to homogenise the fleet so that the same buses were used on the 840 as the 843. Now that the fleet also covers all the Easingwold services and the short 843s and so has a load of other single deckers, there is perhaps less reason to be worried about having to keep separate buses for the two Coastliner routes (especially given how often we see Volvo and Enviro single deckers running on Coastliner routes beyond Malton.
Leedsbusman
Member
Wasn’t it the free concessions that led to the 100% double deck operation - they bought new singles in 2005.
Every vehicle sees an increase in mechanical issues as it ages, regardless or type or route it's used on.
You're misinterpreting what I'm saying, I'm not suggesting they are suffering problems now, the point is that refurbishing the Geminis to use on the 840 is not a long term solution, as they are already 10 years old, it's likely to only give them a few more years of useful life before reliability issues start to bite and new buses are needed.
Ballyheigue
Member
I'd stop it from going round Goathland, problem solved. What's there, a few sheep and some people obsessed with some TV programme that was axed for good reason years ago? You can do the odd walk from there but that's about it, as a bonus it might even improve the never ending journey time as well lol.
YorkRailFan
Established Member
Transdev has proposed doing that in the past. It caused more problems than it solved. Goathland is quite a popular stop on Coastliner during the summer, many stop there on the way to Whitby and some spend the whole day there. There's also the North York Moors Railway running through that generates tourists.
Removing Goathland from Coastliner removes an attraction from the route and moves the issue to North Yorkshire Council to provide a bus service to Goathland. Something that is easier said than done and could result in extra miles being added to existing routes (95? 96?)
An hourly service during the day could work with singles. I doubt a single decker would work on the current Sunday timetable during the summer. May Day Bank Holiday weekend saw 2 double deckers running over the moors directly behind each other. The double decker is part of the attraction to the route though, the upper deck is often full, even in the winter during school holidays. I wonder if less people would use it if the route became exclusively single deckers.
If you move the deckers to the 843 shorts, that would prevent capacity issues between York & Ledds with running a single decker to Whitby. You would have Whitby services running via Kirkby Misperton if some Thornton-le-Dale services would be extended to Whitby. The 17:18 from Thornton-le-Dale towards York is often very popular as it stops at Kirkby Misperton coinciding with Flamingo Land's closing times.
Leedsbusman
Member
I’m not sure I am. Given that 15 year old B9s and 18 year old B7RLEs seem to be operated reliably on Coastliner it seems illogical to suggest B5s can’t be at that age, especially as most if not all were re-engined last year. There does seem to be an enduring prejudice that the B5s aren’t suitable for the route despite coping for nearly ten years!
RustySpoons
Member
- Joined
- 5 Apr 2019
- Messages
- 866
Many of them were re-engined when quite new too along with the 36 fleet, as previously stated they are/were quite underpowered for the routes they were operating on. Some said the engines were replaced with uprated units, others said they were 'truck engines', I don't think anyone other than those who need to know actually knows.
I thought the E400 would have been perfect for these routes with a bigger and more powerful engine - both issues which plagued the B5s - but it wasn't very well received at all.
Leedsbusman
Member
Yes it was a warranty issue originally.
stevieinselby
Established Member
Yeah, but you'd stop anything that doesn't personally appeal to your grumpy brain, ignoring the fact that it's one of the most popular destinations on the route. Sure, don't run buses to the place where lots of people want to go and you'll solve the overcrowding issue, genius!
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Goathland is a tourist destination - it's served for a good reason (even if you, and I, had no time for Heartbeat) because it is a tourist trap. Somewhere around 500,000 per annum.
Transdev did propose axing it and running express so they could then charge extra for ENCTS holders because of NYCC's poor remuneration rates. NYCC backed down because the village still needs a bus service and it was cheaper to divert the 840 and pay the extra than have to fund a dedicated service.
Pit_buzzer
Member
And don't forget that Goathland station is really called Hogsmeade and attracts one or two Harry Potter fans as well
YorkRailFan
Established Member
Drivers complained about the E400 MMCs when they were at Malton. Apparently not nice to drive. East Yorkshire has had reliability issues with their MMCs on the long X46 runs so they might not be the most reliable for Coastliner.
stevieinselby
Established Member
How are the Witch Way buses faring? They are almost as old as the EastRider buses, and they are worked pretty hard too including a 12 mile section running non-stop at high speed on motorway/dual-carriageway, which I would have thought must be at least as punishing as the A1079 if it's the prolonged running at speed that is the problem. Have Burnley drivers reported any problems with them? They seem to have pretty good availability, with most of them out running a full diagram on most days.
What engines do they have?
Is a Scania engine still an option with the E400 MMC bodywork?
mattb7tl
Member
Witchway batch is fitted with ZF, which is now a relatively rare specification, and is no longer offered on new E400 MMCs. I suspect that may be a significant factor in how well they have held up.
ZF equipped buses generally seem gentler on the engine, with more intelligent gear selection and less unnecessary revving. A stark contrast to Voith. Voith boxes do sound incredible, though.
YorkRailFan
Established Member
A Scania with a E400 MMC body has not been delivered to the UK since 2023 (EU23 BZL to Stephensons of Essex, now with Connexions Buses).
I believe East Yorkshire's MMCs have a Cummins engine.
GWVillager
Member
Buses don’t have a particularly long lifespan, nothing will last forever, of course. But it is undeniably the case that putting the fleet through much less stress, which would be possible if relieved from most of their existing duties, and keeping more than strictly necessary for Whitby, would significantly reduce their problems.
Underpowered? Yes. Useless? No. After all, they do it now and have done so for 10 years. I agree that a heavyweight two-axle double decker would be ideal here, and no doubt Transdev does too, but that is not an option at present. A dual fleet seems like the best option, considering this, and hopefully after a few years electric technology will have progressed enough or some ex-Stagecoach Scania Enviro 400 MMCs will be available.
I don’t think single deckers are viable on the 840. They would somewhat undermine the Coastliner’s prestige and the attractiveness of the views, capacity concerns aside.
YorkRailFan
Established Member
In what way? The Whitby diagram is by far the most challenging and intensive of the Coastliner services. Arguably it would degrade them further.
A post on another forum claims that the B8L tri-axle was tested successfully across the 840 & 843. I agree that the Gemini 3s are not useless, Transdev will find use for them elsewhere like they did with the Gemini 3s that were on the36. I'd quite like to see them on Hotline 152 or Red Express X41.
GWVillager
Member
Well they'd just get a lot less use overall. Say, for example, you'd keep five vehicles but only two would be required on a given day - obviously these are arbitrary numbers. You could spend the 'fallow time' giving them any necessary maintenance instead of hammering them in service constantly.
If the tri-axle works on both, then that's great, just get a whole fleet of them. I expect that will be coming at some point, if the post is to be believed. Agreed on the X41 - that desperately needs new buses, and seems to have lost its Red Express brand. It would be good to bring it back.
YorkRailFan
Established Member
Some driver familiarisation with the tri-axle should help on the 840 up to Whitby. Just the one bus left in Red Express branding now - 58 plate B7RLE 1870.
You'd need more than 2 on the current service, most likely 4, for the full length of the service to/from Leeds.
GWVillager
Member
Yes, again, arbitrary numbers.
On the X41, as its brand seems to have been abolished, you could even include it under the Witchway, if you wanted, and have a Manchester fast theme. It would need a timetable rejig, but you might be able to get away with extending it back to Blackburn in place of a 6/7 per hour, but that's perhaps a bit out there.
YorkRailFan
Established Member
With the amount of Gemini 3s that will be made available, it's certainly possible to extend the X41 up to Blackburn. I think they'd quite suit the Witchway livery.
Dusty_Bin
Member
The witchway fleet have been receiving engine replacements since mid 2024. In those cummins the number 2 cylinder fails (part of the valve breaks away and damages the liner).
All B5 fleet, coastliner and Ex 36 all received brand new engines last year and gearboxes were refurbed or replaced if required.
All B5 fleet, coastliner and Ex 36 all received brand new engines last year and gearboxes were refurbed or replaced if required.
Is this normal or not in comparison to other models at a similar age?
Dusty_Bin
Member
It’s not age, it’s mileage. The coastliner buses covered the same distance in 4.5 years as the recently withdrawn 15 year old Nottingham scanias.
Cesarcollie
Member
- Joined
- 5 Jun 2016
- Messages
- 820
It‘s very unusual to refurbish or replace engines and gearboxes until they fail, or at least show signs of failure. I’m not sure whether this is what is meant in respect of the Coastliner etc fleets, or whether being similar mileage, they all happened to fail in the same year (Which is possible, but a little unlikely).