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Help! Fined for failure to collect physical ticket!

kyaadam

Member
Joined
28 Jun 2026
Messages
13
Location
Glasgow
What does the payment request say about who you pay it to? Is it northern that you make the payment to?
Sometimes the payments are made to third party collection agencies.

You could have saved £50 of it straight off by paying within the discounted time period.

You can always ask if you can pay in instalments. They may say yes. That’s something else people will be happy to help you if you draft a request for that.
Yes, the payment is made to Northern Railway, and I can pay via phone, post or online. My preferred method would be online using a debit card.
Again, can the original poster please confirm if the train had yet pulled into Leyland at the point at which they were asked for their ticket?

This is a crucial point as if it was before the train had stopped at the station platform then they should have been given the option for the penalty fare to only be issued to Leyland (regardless of the practical implications of doing so it's if they were offered the option), not Preston, and if this did not happen then the Penalty Fare was invalid as it was not issued in accordance with the regulations.
No, it hadn't. I went to the website for recent train times to confirm this as well, and my PFN notice time is 14:25, which I believe is the time the appeal was printed/issued after I had been asked for my ticket, while recenttraintimes.co.uk confirms the train arrived at Leyland at 14:26.

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What does the payment request say about who you pay it to? Is it northern that you make the payment to?
Sometimes the payments are made to third party collection agencies.

You could have saved £50 of it straight off by paying within the discounted time period.

You can always ask if you can pay in instalments. They may say yes. That’s something else people will be happy to help you if you draft a request for that.

When do they say you need to pay it by?
The last letter I received said that I had 14 days to make payment from the 22nd of June which means my final day to make payment is July 6th.

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Only to make a case to Transport Focus beyond the appeal process which as you say is now been exhausted
Sorry, I would just like to understand, as someone who is unfamiliar with the UK Railway Industry, would I be writing to Transport Focus to ask them to look into the case with Northern on my behalf? Or would I be writing to them to more or less put in a complaint against Northern, that they can use to improve the PFN process in future?
 
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Swedenorer

Member
Joined
28 Sep 2025
Messages
280
Location
Hants
Lets' get back to basics. 1) You were unable to present a valid ticket on demand. 2) This is a strict liability offence and could have resulted in prosecution. 3) The on board staff listened to your explanation and issued you with a penalty fare. 4) It seems to have been properly issued.

I don't see you have any case against Northern at all.

You have used the appeals process on the grounds that you did not know you had to collect the tickets. This has been rejected.

You can only complain to TF on the way the appeals were run not on the grounds for refusal as I understand it. That would be another appeal.

You are left then with your claim that the retailer did not make clear that you had to collect the tickets.

They will say they did.

I'd leave it if I were you.
 

furlong

Established Member
Joined
28 Mar 2013
Messages
5,300
Location
Reading
Well you've got a choice of opinions here! Nothing changes my view that this one ought to have been cancelled (both because of the issuing error using the wrong station and the wider discretion society expects to be applied when fundamentally the railway was paid the correct amount) and you should invite Transport Focus to take this up on your behalf.
 

WesternLancer

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
14,953
The last letter I received said that I had 14 days to make payment from the 22nd of June which means my final day to make payment is July 6th.

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Then you need to write / e-mail them asking if you can pay in installments very quickly now - because if you don't pay by then the risk is they close the payment portal and the matter (and thus the costs) will increase for you.
I would urge you to try and pay it in full - because I think they are unlikely to accept a payment plan for what they will see as a relatively small sum owed - even if that of course means borrowing money from trusted friends or family - but do not borrow money from any dodgy money lenders.
Could you pay by credit card, thus then paying off the credit card bill more gradually - is this an option for you?

Sorry, I would just like to understand, as someone who is unfamiliar with the UK Railway Industry, would I be writing to Transport Focus to ask them to look into the case with Northern on my behalf? Or would I be writing to them to more or less put in a complaint against Northern, that they can use to improve the PFN process in future?
You would be writing to Transport Focus asking them to lookin to the case with Northern - to say that you:

- don't feel your appeal has been considered appropriately
- that you don't think it is reasonable to have to pay a penalty fare when you had bought a ticket and thus there is no loss to the railway
- that the ticket was not collected by anyone else so it could not have been used by anyone else
- that you had not understood that this ticket needed to be collected in person before you boarded the train
- you now believe that staff could have printed the ticket for you instead of issuing you with a Penalty fare
and importantly
- that you believe the matter has not been dealt with in line with the ORR review (see post 23 above by @furlong and use the wording furlong uses in that post) , and maybe some of the stuff in Post 26 too
- end by asking Transport Focus if they can intervene in the matter to get the Penalty Fare overturned and any money you have paid in relation to it

It does not need to be long - just the key points in a request to Transport Focus

So it's not a complaint about Northern - its a request for them to look into your case.

As others have said this is a long shot (as per post 60) but it's all you can do (the only other option is pay it ASAP and write it off as per post 62)

If you are going to write to them to ask - get drafting that and then people here will help finesse it
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
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27,161
Location
Bolton
4) It seems to have been properly issued.
There is every chance it wasn't done correctly. Unfortunately, this means little in practice now, as the appeals have been used up on unrelated grounds which had near zero chance of success.

The OP should pay the penalty fare. Then they can decide what to do next, if anything. They could take complaint to Transport Focus, they could sue for their money back, or they could do nothing.
 

gray1404

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2014
Messages
7,600
Location
Merseyside
No, it hadn't. I went to the website for recent train times to confirm this as well, and my PFN notice time is 14:25, which I believe is the time the appeal was printed/issued after I had been asked for my ticket, while recenttraintimes.co.uk confirms the train arrived at Leyland at 14:26.

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In which case the PF was unlawful as it was not issued in accordance with the Regulations. This is because you were not given the option of it being issued to Leyland (the cheapest option in terms of the Penalty Fare amount).
 

AlterEgo

Verified Rep - Wingin' It! Paul Lucas
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29,187
Location
LBK
Transport Focus will not deal with appeals where someone has discovered a new ground of appeal after all three have been exhausted. They will only deal with procedural errors where the actual appeal was not handled correctly. So we are wasting our time trying to look smart about 30 seconds at Leyland.

We should therefore focus the OP's efforts on trying to take up the point that it was unfair not to allow the appeal three times on compelling grounds - that they merely failed to collect the ticket, had paid for the journey, it can be proven nobody else had taken the ticket, and were on the right train as booked, the Advance being valid nowhere else at any time. The appeals service is doubling down on punishing the passenger for poor admin, which is not what penalty fares are for.
 

gray1404

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2014
Messages
7,600
Location
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This is an unfortunate case because the fact that none of these three appeals were successful does not take away from the fact that the Penalty Fare was not issued in accordance with the regulations.

Could the original poster please send copies of what they submitted for each of the three appeals first? We can see what they have said and anything that might have been overlooked by the appeals body.
 

Mcr Warrior

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Jan 2009
Messages
17,156
This is because you were not given the option of it being issued to Leyland (the cheapest option in terms of the Penalty Fare amount).
Saving 30p? Wouldn't that have meant a further £5.40 being payable to then travel onwards from Leyland to Preston? And maybe then missing the onwards train from Preston to Glasgow?
 

Watershed

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Saving 30p? Wouldn't that have meant a further £5.40 being payable to then travel onwards from Leyland to Preston? And maybe then missing the onwards train from Preston to Glasgow?
That’s as may be, but the Regulations can’t be ignored, whether that is to the passenger’s benefit or detriment.
 

snail

Established Member
Joined
16 Jun 2011
Messages
1,910
Location
t'North
Saving 30p? Wouldn't that have meant a further £5.40 being payable to then travel onwards from Leyland to Preston? And maybe then missing the onwards train from Preston to Glasgow?
Or another penalty fare for not having a valid ticket from Leyland to Preston if they didn't exit the train...
 

Skiddaw

Member
Joined
2 Jan 2020
Messages
466
Location
Penrith
Well you've got a choice of opinions here! Nothing changes my view that this one ought to have been cancelled (both because of the issuing error using the wrong station and the wider discretion society expects to be applied when fundamentally the railway was paid the correct amount) and you should invite Transport Focus to take this up on your behalf.
Am I allowed to say just how much I agree with this?

As I've mentioned previously, a similar thing happened to me on a TPE train from Penrith to Carlisle a year or two back. I was certain I'd purchased a mobile ticket (my default) but for some reason it was a 'collect at station' one. The train manager couldn't have been nicer and had no problem whatsoever in printing off my ticket for me.
 

kyaadam

Member
Joined
28 Jun 2026
Messages
13
Location
Glasgow
Hello all. I appreciate everyone who has replied to this thread in efforts to help me figure this out. Due to the deadline of the 6th of July for the PFN to be paid before the amount to be paid increases, I have emailed Northern Debt Recovery and Prosecutions Unit, which I will attach. They have also stated that any time that passes that effects the amount I owe while I wait for their reply will be taken into consideration, so for the time being I am waiting to hear back from them, and hopefully we can reach a conclusion that suits me. Again thanks to everyone so far, especially those who made me aware of the legislature around issuing the PFN as this will likely really help my case.

The email I sent is below;

I am writing to request a managerial review of my Penalty Fare, following the conclusion of the independent appeals process.

I appreciate that my formal appeals have been unsuccessful, and I am not seeking to submit a further appeal. However, since the appeal concluded, I have reviewed the relevant legislation and guidance in greater detail and have identified matters that I believe warrant further consideration.

The first concerns the application of the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018, as amended by the Railways (Penalty Fares) (Amendment) Regulations 2022.

Regulation 5(5A) provides that where a Penalty Fare is issued on board a train, the passenger is authorised to travel either to a station specified by the passenger, where the collector considers that reasonable, or otherwise to "the next station at which the train is due to make a scheduled call."

In my case, I was approached and issued with the Penalty Fare before the train reached Leyland, which was the next scheduled stop. I was not asked whether I wished to specify a later destination, yet the Penalty Fare was issued to Preston, resulting in a higher fare being charged.

I would therefore be grateful if you could explain how the calculation of the Penalty Fare was considered to be consistent with Regulation 5(5A). If the notice was not calculated in accordance with the Regulations, I respectfully request that this be acknowledged and the amount reviewed accordingly.

In addition, I have since read the Office of Rail and Road's independent review of the Penalty Fare system. Paragraphs 3.80 and 3.81 recognise that passengers purchasing tickets online may reasonably expect to receive a digital ticket, when in some cases the ticket instead requires collection from a ticket vending machine. The report identifies this as a source of genuine passenger confusion that can lead to passengers inadvertently travelling without a valid ticket.

My circumstances closely reflect the concerns identified within that review. While I appreciate that the report does not alter the legal requirements surrounding ticket validity, I believe it is highly relevant when considering whether the outcome of this case is proportionate and whether discretion should be exercised.

I also wish to be open about my personal circumstances. I am currently experiencing financial difficulty, and the outstanding balance represents a significant financial burden. I am not seeking to avoid responsibility for this matter, nor am I attempting to re-litigate the outcome of my appeal. Rather, I am asking Northern to consider whether, in light of the procedural concerns identified above, the findings of the Office of Rail and Road, and my financial circumstances, it would be appropriate to reduce the amount payable as an exercise of discretion.

If Northern's position is that the Penalty Fare was correctly issued and calculated, I would be grateful if you could explain the legal basis upon which the notice was issued to Preston rather than the next scheduled station, together with the reasoning for that decision.

I hope this matter can be resolved directly with Northern without the need for any further escalation, and I would be grateful for your careful consideration of this request.

Thank you for your time, and I look forward to your response.
 

AlterEgo

Verified Rep - Wingin' It! Paul Lucas
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Northern do not need to address your correspondence. You have had three appeals and all failed, including one by an independent appeals service. No doubt they will tell you as much.

You need to take this up with the ombudsman.
 

WesternLancer

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
14,953
Hello all. I appreciate everyone who has replied to this thread in efforts to help me figure this out. Due to the deadline of the 6th of July for the PFN to be paid before the amount to be paid increases, I have emailed Northern Debt Recovery and Prosecutions Unit, which I will attach. They have also stated that any time that passes that effects the amount I owe while I wait for their reply will be taken into consideration, so for the time being I am waiting to hear back from them, and hopefully we can reach a conclusion that suits me. Again thanks to everyone so far, especially those who made me aware of the legislature around issuing the PFN as this will likely really help my case.

The email I sent is below;

I am writing to request a managerial review of my Penalty Fare, following the conclusion of the independent appeals process.

I appreciate that my formal appeals have been unsuccessful, and I am not seeking to submit a further appeal. However, since the appeal concluded, I have reviewed the relevant legislation and guidance in greater detail and have identified matters that I believe warrant further consideration.

The first concerns the application of the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018, as amended by the Railways (Penalty Fares) (Amendment) Regulations 2022.

Regulation 5(5A) provides that where a Penalty Fare is issued on board a train, the passenger is authorised to travel either to a station specified by the passenger, where the collector considers that reasonable, or otherwise to "the next station at which the train is due to make a scheduled call."

In my case, I was approached and issued with the Penalty Fare before the train reached Leyland, which was the next scheduled stop. I was not asked whether I wished to specify a later destination, yet the Penalty Fare was issued to Preston, resulting in a higher fare being charged.

I would therefore be grateful if you could explain how the calculation of the Penalty Fare was considered to be consistent with Regulation 5(5A). If the notice was not calculated in accordance with the Regulations, I respectfully request that this be acknowledged and the amount reviewed accordingly.

In addition, I have since read the Office of Rail and Road's independent review of the Penalty Fare system. Paragraphs 3.80 and 3.81 recognise that passengers purchasing tickets online may reasonably expect to receive a digital ticket, when in some cases the ticket instead requires collection from a ticket vending machine. The report identifies this as a source of genuine passenger confusion that can lead to passengers inadvertently travelling without a valid ticket.

My circumstances closely reflect the concerns identified within that review. While I appreciate that the report does not alter the legal requirements surrounding ticket validity, I believe it is highly relevant when considering whether the outcome of this case is proportionate and whether discretion should be exercised.

I also wish to be open about my personal circumstances. I am currently experiencing financial difficulty, and the outstanding balance represents a significant financial burden. I am not seeking to avoid responsibility for this matter, nor am I attempting to re-litigate the outcome of my appeal. Rather, I am asking Northern to consider whether, in light of the procedural concerns identified above, the findings of the Office of Rail and Road, and my financial circumstances, it would be appropriate to reduce the amount payable as an exercise of discretion.

If Northern's position is that the Penalty Fare was correctly issued and calculated, I would be grateful if you could explain the legal basis upon which the notice was issued to Preston rather than the next scheduled station, together with the reasoning for that decision.

I hope this matter can be resolved directly with Northern without the need for any further escalation, and I would be grateful for your careful consideration of this request.

Thank you for your time, and I look forward to your response.
Have you sent that to Nothern?
I don’t think they will need to accept any of that. But it will be interesting to see how they reply.

I think the only thing to have written to northern about would have been a fairly short and polite request to see if they would accept payment in instalments

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Northern do not need to address your correspondence. You have had three appeals and all failed, including one by an independent appeals service. No doubt they will tell you as much.

You need to take this up with the ombudsman.
Ombudsman or Transport Focus? (For op’s benefit these are different organisations)
 

kyaadam

Member
Joined
28 Jun 2026
Messages
13
Location
Glasgow
Okay thanks I’ll also draft an email to transport focus in the meantime then. I understand they are not obliged to accept a reduction of the PF Notice but I thought it was worth a shot as I have anecdotal evidence of others contacting Northern directly and having positive outcomes.

So far besides the automatic email reply from Northern, this is what they have said.
 

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WesternLancer

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Okay thanks I’ll also draft an email to transport focus in the meantime then. I understand they are not obliged to accept a reduction of the PF Notice but I thought it was worth a shot as I have anecdotal evidence of others contacting Northern directly and having positive outcomes.

So far besides the automatic email reply from Northern, this is what they have said.
A decent chunk of what you have drafted and sent to Northern as posted above can be re-used with modest amendment in a request to Transport Focus to take up your case - however, I would re-order it and put the stuff about the ORR review ahead of the minor issue of where the PF was issued to (if even putting that aspect of things at all is worth including to Transport Focus)

Get that prepared over the weekend and you can submit it to Transport Focus on Monday - having got comments on your draft here before you send it.
 

kyaadam

Member
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28 Jun 2026
Messages
13
Location
Glasgow
Hi to everyone who helped me out with this I would like to say great thank you. Today I received correspondence from Northern railway letting me know due to the discrepancies in my PFN, they will be closing down the case. Thank you to everyone for their support in helping me avoid this charge as it would have been financially strenuous on me, and I must say I have absolutely learned my lesson regarding collecting tickets in future.
 

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WesternLancer

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Hi to everyone who helped me out with this I would like to say great thank you. Today I received correspondence from Northern railway letting me know due to the discrepancies in my PFN, they will be closing down the case. Thank you to everyone for their support in helping me avoid this charge as it would have been financially strenuous on me, and I must say I have absolutely learned my lesson regarding collecting tickets in future.
This is very good news, well done. Your approach to Northern has proved to get the result you wanted, even tho some of us were sceptical that would happen
Thanks for feeding back - helpful for other people in future too.
 

furlong

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Reading
That's the right result and once again shows the shortcomings of the current implementation of the appeals system which should have come to the same conclusion earlier.

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Or another penalty fare for not having a valid ticket from Leyland to Preston if they didn't exit the train...
No, because the inspector is expected to sell the passenger a ticket for the remaining segment of their journey at the same time as issuing the PF (or they could buy an e-ticket on their phone).
 
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