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Transport for Wales Class 230
- Thread starter CaergwrleKen
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CaergwrleKen
Member
The only do 2 of the three diagrams though and the 197 does the longest diagram that stays out until the last train. Sometimes the 230s get swapped over if there’s a fault, they just can’t be trusted to run 3 all day.
Philip Roberts
Member
Three 230s out today?
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
It speaks wonders that such a celebratory posting is made, considering the time that has now been since TfW purchased these five units.
As we have had a ten-day heatwave in the operational area, have all those Class 230 units behaved well?
I’m not sure what was celebratory about asking whether three 230s had survived the day or not?
Sam 76
Member
Looks like they have had an excellent day. Only cancellation this evening seems to be a lack of train crew
It is no secret that the original expectation was to have all 5 230s in service running a 30 min service requiring 4 sets daily but that has not been possible.
The intentional project has failed but TFW are stuck with these units until alternatives can be found. The backup is to run 2 in service alongside a 197, with the occasional 3 230s in service. TFW dont have enough 197s to be able to run the whole service with 197s, so the 230s will continue until alternatives can be found, which is not going to happen anytime soon
The intentional project has failed but TFW are stuck with these units until alternatives can be found. The backup is to run 2 in service alongside a 197, with the occasional 3 230s in service. TFW dont have enough 197s to be able to run the whole service with 197s, so the 230s will continue until alternatives can be found, which is not going to happen anytime soon
Cambrian359
Member
- Joined
- 17 Jun 2018
- Messages
- 302
There’s some 1973 Piccadilly line trains retiring soon….
Northerngirl
Member
Arnt we still waiting for the new junction for freight before it can go to 4 per hour, given that a couple of years ago it was all replaced with busses for months, I think 3/5 is a decent outcome
The 230s have been on all the diagrams the last few days giving that much-needed 197 back to the rest of the network. Have used the line a lot recently and it’s been reliable (except Tuesday afternoon when there was a track defect northbound after Hawarden Bridge, super crew escorted us back down the lineside path to Shotton, and then time for a quick half in Spoons outside the station before Pat rescued us in his coach!)
(PAYG though is another matter, another thread - haven’t found anyone with a good word on that pilot on the line. Off topic, will head over there!)
(PAYG though is another matter, another thread - haven’t found anyone with a good word on that pilot on the line. Off topic, will head over there!)
Philip Roberts
Member
Glad it's been working well for you and also good a 197 has been released (it's needed!) PAYG works great in south Wales so hopefully they can iron it our soon.
Hope this post wasn't too celebratory...
Peter Sarf
Established Member
There must have been some very good modifications recently if all three diagrams are covered by 230s. So good to see progress. Given heat was iirc one of the issues the current weather must be a good test and the 230s are surviving that.
PAYG (Pay As You Go) - well I have used it in South Wales with no problems. I live in London so regularly used it there until I reached 66 !. I now have a free version of the Oyster card. I prefer to use a dedicated card (Oyster in London) to keep track of expenditure and keep eggs in different baskets so to speak. When I did use Oyster PAYG in London it really was very convenient apart from thinking I made suspicious journeys whenever I hung around on platforms for too long !.
Yes. It's infrastructure work delaying increasing the service to 2 an hour. (You might find this hard to believe!!)
Are units still swapped out mid-day, or did they stay out and last the whole day?
Peter Sarf
Established Member
Good question, I do not know.
Well at least one of the daily diagrams must be one unit all day. My thought is with five units to choose from and three diagrams per day then logically one of those three diagrams would have to be one unit all day if the other two diagrams get a fresh unit swapped in half way through the day. (logic)
I suppose the ability of the 230s to stay out all day would allow all three diagrams to be covered by 230s. So perhaps the 230s have reached the stage where they can be trusted to last a whole day. (conjecture)
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Let us be brutally honest and cast aside the excuses made for these units.
What respected railway organisation would ever purchase units that needed to be swapped half-way through the operational day?
In fairness, I thought that, originally at least, they were swapped out due to the pollen filters becoming clogged. That was hardly a deliberate design issue! If they have solved that, then all well and good.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
It it really the case that such mid working day swapping was only ever due to pollen, be it of the tree, grass and weed variety, and nothing to do with other factors?
They have generally doing complete days now for a few months, with occasional days where a switch takes place. Yesterday had a switch but that didn't work out well - 009 was replaced by 010 which then failed with "a problem with the brakes" according to RTT, leading to further disruption and cancellations whilst it was recovered. The TFW web site said that there was a broken rail, but that might have been referring to the previous days issues mentioned above and the notice not removed from the website.
Generally things are improved though. I've noticed over the last few months that a particular unit will disappear for a while and then when it comes back works regularly day in day out for some time. 007 is missing at the moment. My guess, repeat guess, is that they are applying modifications to each unit one at a time, and have now reached the point where they have sufficient units available to operate the three trains a day with a reasonable degree of reliability - currently 4 units in use. Seeing the same unit(s?) working a complete week recently indicated that some of the issues (eg battery balancing) appear to have been resolved. That they have been running during this hot weather without battery temperatures issues (another reason, as I understand it, for swapping the units) is another pointer towards this.
I wish them well, and enjoy travelling on them. I do question the wisdom of ordering a small micro fleet of a type of train very different from the rest of the stock, which are incompatible with anything else, and which at the time were a new and pretty much untested quantity. But that is another matter altogether...
Generally things are improved though. I've noticed over the last few months that a particular unit will disappear for a while and then when it comes back works regularly day in day out for some time. 007 is missing at the moment. My guess, repeat guess, is that they are applying modifications to each unit one at a time, and have now reached the point where they have sufficient units available to operate the three trains a day with a reasonable degree of reliability - currently 4 units in use. Seeing the same unit(s?) working a complete week recently indicated that some of the issues (eg battery balancing) appear to have been resolved. That they have been running during this hot weather without battery temperatures issues (another reason, as I understand it, for swapping the units) is another pointer towards this.
I wish them well, and enjoy travelling on them. I do question the wisdom of ordering a small micro fleet of a type of train very different from the rest of the stock, which are incompatible with anything else, and which at the time were a new and pretty much untested quantity. But that is another matter altogether...
Plenty of respected railway organisations ease new products in slowly (indeed, in the good / bad old days, they used to run prototypes, often on restricted diagrams, for years). The fault with our railways (and, dare I say it, many commentators) is expecting things to work straight out of the box and resourcing things accordingly.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
When you say "straight out of the box" above, I find that view somewhat perplexing when one considers the time period that these five units have been in the possession of TfW.
Based on some of the DB examples, 5 or 6 years before ordering the series production was not unusual.
Philip Roberts
Member
They're out all day as far as I am aware. Also agree that the weather would put pressure on them too but they're surviving
Peter Sarf
Established Member
A railway organisation that did not expect to have to swap units half way through the day. Also a railway organisation that did not expect the supplier to go out of business. Remember the 230s are being maintained by Stadter at Birkenhead depot, they did not expect to do that work and really have other priorities - namely implementing their companies' own 777s and then keeping them working.
Thanks for the update on their usage.
To answer your last point and to answer @Xenophon PCDGS :
I recall the need was for a unit capable of handling the very demanding schedule on the Borderlands line and also to be able to maintain the units with minimal maintenance facilities at the line. The investment was in just a hard standing next to a siding on the line (at Wrexham iirc ?) with engine/battery modules easily removed and replaced by a forklift. Those modules could then leave by road to a separate maintenance facility. Lets not forget the 15x classes apparently cannot adhere to the schedule. So a requirement for a bespoke solution was always going to be "interesting".
Sticking with the existing sprinters was no good as they were being replaced by 197s so trips to and from Chester were no longer convenient.
Being such a small order no other manufacturer would entertain designing anything to suit.
I feel sure that if battery 777s with enough range come along then the 230s could well be gone in a flash.
Thankyou.
Well I doubt it helped that the manufacturer of them went bust, leaving TfW having to suddenly pick up all these issues. And it's not unique. The Class 810 on the Midland Main Line are being delivered 3 years late and even then apparently have a litany of problems that has caused the operator to reduce the timetable.
43096
On Moderation
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What was the plan then? Because as far as I can remember Birkenhead has always been the choice for 230 maintenance.
Wyrleybart
Established Member
Absolutely. In my view DB had the right idea all those years ago. THe class 103 and 120 AC electrics had small preproduction runs to iron out the kinks in the major new design.
But 230001 was AIUI supposed to do that, and the spectacular fire at Kenilworth went a long way to proving that Automotive components do not always work for rail. In my opinion TfW were very trusting of Vivarail, maybe because of who Vivarail's boss was, after all, the Chiltern franchise was trvkoned to be doing very well.
I am really glad the 230s seem to have settled down relatively well, simply because the concept was pretty good. I wonder if anyone can confirm whether the diesels shut down like they were planned to, once batteries were "full". There was supposed to be a geofencing concept where the diesels didn't run in sensitive areas. If that has been achieved, and 230s are achieving their planned daily mileages, then I would say that Adrian Shooter and his team achieved what they set out to - albeit posthumously in his case.
I suppose the question is actually - what lifespan do the 230s have in front of them ? AFAIK there is no TfW published long term plan for them to be replaced., but maybe once the Northern, Scotrail and GWR fleets of BEMUs are trial running, perhaps TfW will be considering similar as a way forward for both the 153s and the 230s.
Though it didn’t work that well in the case of the 120s! Think the record gap between prototype and series production was probably the 628s - albeit other factors came into play.