Tube trains don’t exist for views. They exist to cram in a ton of people for what are on average, short and quick efficient journeys.
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Which London Underground route has the most stations in daylight?
- Thread starter Joe SeafordNY
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On the West Highland Line, maybe. On an urban mass transit system, not a chance.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
I introduce to you both the U-Bahn Cabrio in Berlin.
U-Bahn-Cabrio
Mit dem U-Bahn-Cabrio der BVG entdeckst du Berlin aus einer ganz neuen Perspektive. Hier findest du alle wichtigen Informationen im Überblick.
www.bvg.de
Tickets are like gold dust.
Or, if you want a view of the area around the docklands, the cable car.I introduce to you both the U-Bahn Cabrio in Berlin.
U-Bahn-Cabrio
Mit dem U-Bahn-Cabrio der BVG entdeckst du Berlin aus einer ganz neuen Perspektive. Hier findest du alle wichtigen Informationen im Überblick.
Tickets are like gold dust.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
The closet LU equivalent must be the 1938 stock train that runs from time to time (and has some seats facing forward and back).I introduce to you both the U-Bahn Cabrio in Berlin.
U-Bahn-Cabrio
Mit dem U-Bahn-Cabrio der BVG entdeckst du Berlin aus einer ganz neuen Perspektive. Hier findest du alle wichtigen Informationen im Überblick.
Tickets are like gold dust.
Also the F Market and Wharves line in San Francisco (standard ticket pricing applies)I introduce to you both the U-Bahn Cabrio in Berlin.
U-Bahn-Cabrio
Mit dem U-Bahn-Cabrio der BVG entdeckst du Berlin aus einer ganz neuen Perspektive. Hier findest du alle wichtigen Informationen im Überblick.
Tickets are like gold dust.
F Market & Wharves - Wikipedia
Joke!
I'm not sure many will agree with that opinion (presented as a statement).
RacsoMoquette
Member
Which line has the least tedious work would you say? The Jubilee Line comes to mind because it has mainly modern stations and has a good stretch of open air running, esspeccially up to Stanmore.
What makes the C/H&C lines tedious?
matt_world2004
Established Member
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They do or used to run dlr tour trains which have much fewer people on board for scenic views.
Stratford581
Member
Not really ... very similar ... the off peak pattern pre T5 was a 7.5 minute recess at T123 for drivers pnb
Old Walter
Member
It’s funny you mention that…..apparently in the September Picc timetable the turnaround at T5 is seven minutes platform-to-platform. Detraining time, running to-and-fro time and the minimum four minutes in the siding. Completely irresponsible scheduling IMO with zero regard for recovery and good practice. We’ll see what transpires….
As for the thread title though (!), for individual routes which have the most daylight - I would suggest these off peak ‘general’ workings: Central line trains 171 and 172 - Hainault to Woodford shuttles. Only one short tunnel on the route between stations.
Metropolitan line trains 421 - 427. Baker Street to Watford. All completely open north of Finchley Road (the first stop) and even then the section between Baker Street and Finchley Road features daylight.
Going back to the quote above for those interested, the old method where both routes from WY1 (junction signal into Heathrow 123 ex T4) had numerous advantages, passengers being able to cross the platform ex T4 for a faster journey to central London. Admittedly T5 is in the mix now so things aren’t so - but - it has been suggested (from staff side) the Night Tube service run via T4 with the extra PNR (PNB) available at 123 with passengers making the same easy connection for people willing to get on with it. Hasn’t happened and the problem of getting people off the train at T5 at all sorts of hours remains.
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The Circle involves lots of stopping and starting. An extended from Hammersmith to Edgware Road is the same amount of stops from Epping to West Ruislip on the Central - the longest end-to-end run in mileage LU has (the longest in time is Uxbridge - Cockfosters on the Picc which doesn’t exist on this timetable - happy to be corrected if there’s an odd working but the base of the timetable doesn’t have this).
It’s the same amount of stops in a much shorter time - indeed weekend Circle duties would be almost touching 200 station stops in a shift. Not even the intensive Vic line touches that.
I personally found the work on the C&H ok under manual driving - the only thing that made me look to do something else was ATO, completely ruined what was a nice job, and I do get how lucky I am. The whole country is full of people that don’t like their jobs but have to go along with it, at least on LUL there’s options to move lines or even job roles within the organisation, so I really appreciate having that option
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Stratford581
Member
I'm not sure you understand how the recovery (layover) and drivers pnb work at Heathrow T5.
What you have described has always been the case since the station opened. The train arrives, detrains, then runs in and out of the sidings as quickly as possible. The layover time is maxed out in the EB platform where the driver has access to a toilet and tea point. Typically 6 to 8 minutes.
Nothing is changing drastically for this Septembers (Leaf Fall) that I'm aware of.
Old Walter
Member
That’s exactly what happens (I am a Piccadilly line driver) and what’s been reported is that the typical 6 to 8 minutes (or on WTT64 9 minutes) on the east will disappear. I think I see what you mean - that I’m just meaning the reversal time with the siding - no! The seven minutes is WB arrival to EB departure. The report is arrive at say 00 on the west, depart east again at 07 - just enough time to detrain (with assistance), drive to the siding, change ends and drive back again. Even with a fast turnaround in the siding it wouldn’t leave much time back at the eastbound.
The times were cut at both T4 and T5 for WTT65 - splitting the services up as far as possible to cater for 24TS workings (which as we know aren’t in service anyway) and it’s been loudly voiced that the stand times need to be put back to what they were. Instead it looks like they’ll be reduced even more…..
bramling
Veteran Member
In terms of LU there’s a lot of factors which have an effect on how good or bad a line is to work. Tunnel work is one of those, but isn’t the only one - factors like whether it’s tube or surface stock, turnround times, length of time in the cab on any one journey, management culture etc.
The Northern is regarded as one of the worse. Lots of tunnel work, pretty intense nowadays, 4 minutes at each end if lucky, dusty, noisy, and has had indifferent management over the years.
Piccadilly has less tunnel work but each trip can mean being in a cab for a long time, also ever-present risk of having a SPAD. Very fractious industrial relations.
Central is actually quite popular. Trains are often cancelled due to the unreliability of the fleet, which for drivers is a good thing. Whilst the trips are long, plenty is in the open. The ATO system is less monotonous than the Seltrac system. And generally the line has a fairly relaxed atmosphere between management control and drivers.
The Vic Line one would expect to be unpopular, but it actually isn’t. Whilst the work is very monotonous, the 2009 stock is comfortable, and the big benefit is never being more than half an hour away from “home”, or in one cab for too long.
The Bakerloo and Jubilee are somewhere in the middle of all this. Bakerloo has a fairly good atmosphere, Jubilee less so. Jubilee in particular has very bad relations between drivers and control, not too bad between drivers and management (though with exceptions). Does have elements of the Northern though with quick turnrounds and quite intense work. Bakerloo has a lot of tunnel work, but generally fairly relaxed as the line is less busy than others.
For the surface lines the District is probably the most intense in terms of length of time spent in the cab, but nonetheless it’s a very popular line, and one of the best management/driver relationships of anywhere. Met is similar, again good relationships, and work is probably the least intense of any line. The C&H is the problem child of the surface lines, industrial relations are not as good. The work nowadays isn’t as bad as when the proper Circle Line ran, which is probably the reason it always had a reputation for being militant (especially Edgware Road).
A mention for the W&C line too. Has its own clique of regular drivers who enjoy it, and they rearrange the work to make it work in a way which they enjoy, so although one would think it would be hated, this isn’t really an issue.
Traditionally it’s always been the Picc and C&H which have had the bad reputations, especially Arnos Grove and Edgware Road depots. Elements of this still exist, but it’s more nuanced nowadays than a generation ago.
Stratford581
Member
Who is reporting this?
Sounds like complete nonsense and if I asked Mr W Hill for odds on what you state in respect to no pnb time in the platform on the east I'd get 5000/1 !
Let's have a look when the September timetable is issued and I'll guarantee I'll be happy not have placed any bet!
Old Walter
Member
I’m hoping it’s complete nonsense! It sounds totally unworkable - the source: RMT reps at the east end of the line.
Stratford581
Member
Haven't seen the September Leaf Fall timetable yet but the spec I believe was the same as least years ... which is a service reduction to the airport therefore leading to slightly increased layovers for the bulk of the traffic day when compared to todays WTT65.
Old Walter
Member
This is what was getting my head scratching - the 5tph service offered pretty generous turnarounds at T5 and it was possible to get 10-11 minutes on the eastbound. Hoping that the talk in the mess rooms isn’t quite right and arrangements are as normal : )
Quick question. What made the H&C militant. I've heard of stories about Edgware Road depot historically being notorious. In regards to the other depots I would say a decent depot to be at would be East Finchley on the Northern line. Golders and Morden are a bit more intense.
bramling
Veteran Member
Can’t say for sure, but I suspect it stems from the work being horrible. Same reason as the Piccadilly Line. The north end of the Piccadilly Line is very militant and this historically included the stations as well. Things have mellowed over the years.
I guess it starts with the work being undesirable, which before you even start means it tends to be somewhere people end up not through choice. Naturally people try to reduce their exposure to that undesirable work, which soon leads to conflicts with management. The unions then become involved as things escalate, and all it takes is for a senior manager to then appear who takes a confrontational line with the unions, and then the issues snowball from there.
It’s no coincidence that another place which had a reputation for trouble was Earl’s Court control room. No coincidence that it was always a horrible place to work.
It isn’t really a case of fundamentally bad people, and good management can turn these places around, often just by introducing a culture of mutual respect and trust. Unfortunately LU has always seemed to have a healthy supply of bad managers and a much smaller supply of good ones, hence why issues have often persisted rather than been resolved.
It’s all relative. Someone coming over from the Central or Met lines would probably still regard East Finchley as quite intense. What has helped a lot is Battersea, which is generally served by trains off the Barnet branch, and for several reasons drivers much prefer going to Battersea than reversing via the Kennington loop. Golders Green drivers are still stuck with that - there’s duties, especially at weekends, that do 5x Kennington/Edgware and these are generally very unpopular.
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I've seen some duties books from all of depots from all of the lines and in regards to the Kennington loops. I think Morden depot has Golders beat especially on the weekends and it's interesting the way you broke it down from how militant things were.
From a few people I know in the knowhow a lot of folks have said Hammersmith and Barking are the decent depots on the H&C. Met line, a lot of people I've found love that line with the views and Rickmansworth is considered the dead man shoes depot along with Barking and Upminster on the district line
bramling
Veteran Member
Hammersmith is a fairly new depot, and part of the rationale behind it was no doubt to try and split up the troublesome Edgware Road depot, which was also operationally awkward. I don’t think Barking H&C was regarded as being overly militant back in proper Circle days either, which would go with my theory that a lot of the issue stemmed from the Circle Line work, as Barking would have tended to do more H&C.
Rickmansworth is certainly hard to get into, same with Barking and especially Upminster as you say. You can to some extent add Hainault and Loughton to that list, though probably not as hard to reach as the others just mentioned. Oddly Hainault also has a bit of a reputation for militancy, but I’d suggest it’s a different sort to what one might associate with Edgware Road. Think east-end types!
Old Walter
Member
I’m not so sure these days, the Rickmansworth lists aren’t what they were, and Loughton is the easiest east end depot to get into - I know people who haven’t been in the driving grade a long time who have got there. A big part of this is a lot of the waiting list on two-year tie ins to their current depots. It used to be one year but this changed a while ago to pay for a Boxing Day enhancement deal.
The Edgware Road list is quite long these days, it’s an easy depot to get to if you don’t live in London (with Paddington next door, Kings Cross not far away and even the southern termini like Waterloo and London Bridge not far away via the Jubilee/Bakerloo lines). Plus the word has got out that it’s the easiest line to work on under CBTC signalling. It doesn’t even have a depot (the S7s are shared with the District and their workings rotated for maintenance at Ealing Common, Upminster and a one-a-day transfer from Neasden) so unless the RM procedure is needed under failure conditions - if a driver doesn’t want to, they need never come out of ATO.
Hammersmith was the reopening of an old depot which closed under Company Plan in the early 1990s. The idea was to reduce the amount of night turns on the line (before the depot split Edgware Road had more than exist now) and the travelling time for early/late turns to/from Hammersmith. I would agree there was a degree of splitting up crews deliberately to make the service run smoother. The original Hammersmith duties were seen as a carrot to make people transfer willingly there. As each timetable change happened Hammersmith became more extreme (as in very early starts and late finishes) with the middle shifts becoming less and less in number.
I can’t remember the exact details of this - but I’ve heard more than once that when the old Baker Street depot was closed and Edgware Road opened in 1993 (in a series of ‘temporary’ portakabins which lasted until Griffith House crew depot opened years later) this caused some angst. In earlier Baker Street days (where before the crews worked both the C&H and Met Main - all under the Metropolitan line umbrella) the service was segregated because the C&H went OPO operation (driver only without a guard) before the Met did. The crews were told that once the Met went OPO that the workings would be merged together again. The opening of Edgware Road quashed that idea and led to a great deal of distrust - and indeed the old way of working never returned. There were odd workings of C stock to Neasden on nights which lasted some years which made drivers think that the company wanted things both ways to suit them, and added to the frustration on the line.
A lot of the friction happened because of the way the Circle needed to be managed - it was very frequent for trains to be later than anticipated and reformations would take place on a constant basis over the day. This obviously put crew managers on a short fuse and with only a limited number of C69/77 trains being built could put a spotlight on the service. A lot of this did ease when extended Circle was put in during 2009 and with a start-and-end point there was more scope for recovery.
I’m still surprised it worked - nearly 17 years on. The base idea for this was worked out by then-GM David Millard and nobody thought it would work in practice. Credit to DM, that’s the pattern we’ve got today and the turnaround times are favourable when compared to other lines.
The one I’ve never got over was Met WTT331 which ditched the all day fast running and as described by staff at the time “you’ve turned a nice line into something like the District line” and it was a real culture shock working on there at the time. I still remember the first week of it, it was hard work . I’d have hoped that by now the ‘main line’ element to Met stopping patterns would have returned - there were studies conducted at the time which indicated a greater number of passengers were at a loss compared to those who gained at local line stations. However I’ll accept its 2026 now and I haven’t seen the data or any subsequent studies to address the intervening 15 years or so…..
I’ve probably used my ‘off topic’ allowance there and while I’ve replied to Mr. Brambling I’ve added some extra explanations to wider readers, I know Brambling will get what OPO means etc, ditto the Boxing Day stuff : )
Ah in regards to Hammersmith now it makes sense. On the Met line. All three of the depots have a fairly long waiting list with possibly Neasden being the quickest one to get into though Harrow on the Hill slyly reminds me of Earl's Court on the district line being the crew of the line.
Barking and Upminster. I actually feel so sorry for people that's just put their names down on the list as when I checked it the last time it was horrendous. Those people at the bottom of the list have a long wait to get there. It's interesting about the east end depots on the Central Line. I think Loughton reopened within the last 10-20 years
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The interesting company plan that a lot of people I know spoke about the changes that occurred. Oh I know about how the H&C is fully auto all the way. If people think the Met line is difficult to get into now, it's gonna be even harder when it's fully auto. It's an attractive line to be on especially given how most of the stations are outside.
Old Walter
Member
Loughton reopened in 2006. Around the same time as Hammersmith, both old depots gone under Company Plan. Hammersmith has moved since, the reopened depot was at the end of Platform 3 but this had to come down because of the extra length for S stock. The current office block depot opened in 2010.
A lot of people seem to want ATO these days, it’s a real shame. Maybe I’m turning (turned) into a dinosaur but I can’t see anything more satisfying about being a driver than actually driving. Knowing the route, knowing what you can get out of the trains, knowing how to address problems. With the right mindset it’s actually a very absorbing role though LU's approach towards the grade doesn’t seem to match the mainline where drivers are taken more seriously. The attitude from above seems to look down on people who don’t seek promotion out of the grade when in reality they should recognise people who want to know their job properly and stick with it. I was wound up about this for a long time but I’ve decided that LU’s hangups about the grade aren’t worth my blood pressure.
I know I’m straying even more off topic but the subject of crew depots pre-1990s is an interesting one. The big purpose built places we see today largely didn’t exist. Certainly on the Picc, Oakwood, Arnos Grove and Northfields crew depots were just a collection of rooms in the station. No purpose built place at all. Wood Green had a bit more going on because of the canteen. Acton Town also had a canteen so Piccadilly crews booked on with the District. South Harrow was the house like building at the end of the eastbound platform and even then not all of it was used. The upstairs was a large flat occupied by a local bus inspector and his wife.
The old way was that the drivers came under the management of the local SM (Station Master) so all the extra rooms for local management and training weren’t needed. I know Biffo Bostock recorded the old Loughton depot in the station which was just a running desk, a mess room and a locker room. As far as I know it’s on YT (and a great deal more primitive than what drivers have today).
Sorry, off thread allowance pushed even more!
Edit, found the video:
It's interesting you mentioned the pre 1990s depots. Edgware still has some stuff in place before they moved it over to Golders. Same with Barnet. I think with LU they're all about people moving up so when someone actually likes the job it's baffling towards them as they're like but why. The Met line I find has more stations on the outside surface compared to the other lines. I know when that line goes ATO the waitlist is gonna get longer.
Are there any depots which are seriously short staffed?
I've noticed that there are often a lot of cancellations at weekends. Why is this given that I think that LUL operates a seven day roster and there is little overtime. More leave taken at weekends? Absenteeism?
I've noticed that there are often a lot of cancellations at weekends. Why is this given that I think that LUL operates a seven day roster and there is little overtime. More leave taken at weekends? Absenteeism?