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222 contract for Scotrail: updates (not speculation)

dk1

dk1

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hexagon789 said:
It is not unheard of for even 2+5s to be full and standing even in First Class on certain workings in peak season or certain weekends.

Midwinter would be a different matter.
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Oh yes on certain select services I would imagine as has always been the case. Several are only crowded initially out of Edinburgh/Glasgow.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

FlybeDash8Q400 said:
I think the 222’s will be more beneficial at replacing 158/170 diagrams.

I agree it’s rare that a HST is so full it’s standing, so overall the 222’s should cope. It’s particularly those unit run trains where it’s actually going to be more useful.
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I wholeheartedly concur mate.
 
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WesternLancer

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Like voyagers the tapered body sides means luggage racks useless apart for for smaller bags. Whereas an hst rack you can get a small- modest sized wheeled case on the racks.
So
Luggage space is a bit weak.
Resolvable by sacrificing seats I suppose.

Engine drone under every carriage is the big annoying thing vs an HST.

They are v tatty inside now but tackling that is part of the plan iirc.

Currently have poor window alignment too in both classes but again resolvable.

They are much better than voyagers however.
 
Nym

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WesternLancer said:
Like voyagers the tapered body sides means luggage racks useless apart for for smaller bags. Whereas an hst rack you can get a small- modest sized wheeled case on the racks.
So
Luggage space is a bit weak.
Resolvable by sacrificing seats I suppose.

Engine drone under every carriage is the big annoying thing vs an HST.

They are v tatty inside now but tackling that is part of the plan iirc.

Currently have poor window alignment too in both classes but again resolvable.

They are much better than voyagers however.
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You're correct. The interior is down to get a rather significant re-work.
 
WesternLancer

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Nym said:
You're correct. The interior is down to get a rather significant re-work.
Click to expand...
Thanks yes. The interior was better than a voyager to start with imho. But the reworking will hopefully improve it a lot further.
 
duffield

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sh24 said:
The best of the Voyager series, most especially the lack of toilet smells. The main downsides are the diesel engines yammering away under the floor and the appalling modile signal on board but otherwise they are pretty comfortable trains. Just a modest downgrade from the HSTs, and in Standard I think the 222 seats are more comfortable.
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The appalling mobile signal has got to be a huge downside though these days, given these are going to be is service for a long time now. That's one of the main reasons I'm glad to see the back of them on the MML!
 
WesternLancer

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duffield said:
The appalling mobile signal has got to be a huge downside though these days, given these are going to be is service for a long time now. That's one of the main reasons I'm glad to see the back of them on the MML!
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Can Scotrail’s tackle that with a technical solution?
 
K

kkong

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A reminder of what ScotRail have said the refurbishment will cover.

ScotRail announces plans to replace high speed trains

Refurbishment will be undertaken by Alstom and the makeover will include:
  • Full exterior repaint and updated livery.
  • Comprehensive interior refresh, including new carpets and full interior repaint.
  • A new passenger information system, including multimedia displays.
  • New Wi-Fi with Low Earth Orbit Satellite connectivity and voice-over-internet phone capability.
  • Family friendly area, providing space for passengers with an unfolded pushchair.
  • Wheelchair facilities in both First Class and two spaces in Standard Class.
  • Storage for six bikes.
  • New electronic seat reservation system.
  • New CCTV system – enhancing the safety and security of customers and staff.
  • Intelligent Engine Start Stop (automatically stops an engine to reduce emissions).
  • New First and Standard Class seats and tables, with plug sockets, USB-A and USB-C at every seat.
  • Onboard catering facilities to support at seat and trolley service.
  • Reconfigured carriage layout to maximise window alignment and luggage storage.
Click to expand...
 
B

Bletchleyite

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Has that changed? I did think they were replacing all the seats, but that seems to suggest a refresh rather than a refurb, i.e. using the existing ones in a different configuration.

Sorry, it says new seats further down.

The VOIP thing seems to suggest they might be considering a "picocell", though these days most providers support WiFi calling anyway as long as the phone does. That would solve the signal issue.
 
K

kkong

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Bletchleyite said:
Has that changed? I did think they were replacing all the seats, but that seems to suggest a refresh rather than a refurb, i.e. using the existing ones in a different configuration.
Click to expand...

It says:
  • New First and Standard Class seats and tables, with plug sockets, USB-A and USB-C at every seat.

This was announced in March and I'm not aware anything has changed since then. It took long enough to sign the contract, so I assume everything is buttoned down pretty tightly with the spec.
 
B

Bletchleyite

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kkong said:
It says:
  • New First and Standard Class seats and tables, with plug sockets, USB-A and USB-C at every seat.

This was announced in March and I'm not aware anything has changed since then. It took long enough to sign the contract, so I assume everything is buttoned down pretty tightly with the spec.
Click to expand...

Yes, sorry, I missed that that was further down the list - it's odd that they're talking of a refresh when they would normally use the term refurbishment when the seats are new. Have edited my post.

Now I'm thinking on I think this confused me when that first came out too! :)

I think these will be quite nice to be honest. It sounds like they are prioritising comfort and views over packing seats in.
 
fgwrich

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sh24 said:
VOIP! Encouraging people to make calls on board is NOT good. o_O
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To be fair, not withstanding the current signal levels along routes such as the Highland Mainline, the Faraday Cage effect from the Voyager / Meredian family needs to be addressed somehow anyway.
 
Nym

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Bletchleyite said:
Starlink wifi is being tested isn't it?
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That won’t help with a phone signal.

Some form of nano cell would be a better solution than relying on the doubtless “sign in here” data farming WiFi we seem to be fitting to all trains nowerdays.

Also will be interesting to see how a Starlink tile will be fitted to the roof and remain in gauge.
 
I

InvHst

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222s are going to be a real challenge. The following services are always oversubscribed in first class during the summer that are booked hst.

Monday-Saturday
1248 Inverness-Edinburgh
1333 Edinburgh-Inverness
Sometimes even 842 Inverness-Glasgow can be as well.

Sunday

1052/1325 Inverness-Edinburgh
1111 Glasgow-Inverness.

The incredibly reduced capacity of first class seats are going to put real strain on train crew and a lot of discontent. Should go to reservation only in first when they come in but unfortunately with sheer ways to buy tickets its impossible to achieve
 
WesternLancer

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kkong said:
A reminder of what ScotRail have said the refurbishment will cover.

ScotRail announces plans to replace high speed trains
Click to expand...
Thanks for this useful reminder

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

InvHst said:
222s are going to be a real challenge. The following services are always oversubscribed in first class during the summer that are booked hst.

Monday-Saturday
1248 Inverness-Edinburgh
1333 Edinburgh-Inverness
Sometimes even 842 Inverness-Glasgow can be as well.

Sunday

1052/1325 Inverness-Edinburgh
1111 Glasgow-Inverness.

The incredibly reduced capacity of first class seats are going to put real strain on train crew and a lot of discontent. Should go to reservation only in first when they come in but unfortunately with sheer ways to buy tickets its impossible to achieve
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Will the 222 fleet be larger than the hst fleet so some 170 operated services would switch to 222 thus spreading the load the HSTs take up now by a bit.
 
hexagon789

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WesternLancer said:
Will the 222 fleet be larger than the hst fleet so some 170 operated services would switch to 222 thus spreading the load the HSTs take up now by a bit.
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They want 19 diagrams out of 22 units, vs 16 current HST diagrams.

At least one Highland Main Line working each way, probably the current 1033 north/1050 south, will need to remain a non-222 working as its needed to cycle units to and from Inverness depot.

I think someone said they would likely redo the timetable slightly for the 222s, and thus the diagrams will also probably be redone.
 
Railperf

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WesternLancer said:
Can Scotrail’s tackle that with a technical solution?
Click to expand...
The following was reported about a solution German Railways are doing to solve the same issue on their fleets:

"Deutsche Bahn (DB) uses a specialized laser etching technique on its train windows to drastically improve 4G and 5G mobile phone reception.
Because modern train windows are coated with a microscopic layer of metal to block solar heat and save energy, they act like a Faraday cage, blocking cellular signals from entering the cabin.
To fix this, DB uses high-precision lasers to engrave a microscopic pattern (like a fine grid or honeycomb) into the metallic coating. This creates tiny gaps in the metal that allow cell signals to penetrate the glass, boosting indoor reception by up to 100 times without compromising thermal insulation."

Would be great if a similar process was carried out to our 22x fleets and Eurostar e320 trains. CAF trains also seem to be poor too.
 
WesternLancer

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hexagon789 said:
They want 19 diagrams out of 22 units, vs 16 current HST diagrams.

At least one Highland Main Line working each way, probably the current 1033 north/1050 south, will need to remain a non-222 working as its needed to cycle units to and from Inverness depot.

I think someone said they would likely redo the timetable slightly for the 222s, and thus the diagrams will also probably be redone.
Click to expand...
Thanks.
 
S

sh24

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Railperf said:
The following was reported about a solution German Railways are doing to solve the same issue on their fleets:

"Deutsche Bahn (DB) uses a specialized laser etching technique on its train windows to drastically improve 4G and 5G mobile phone reception.
Because modern train windows are coated with a microscopic layer of metal to block solar heat and save energy, they act like a Faraday cage, blocking cellular signals from entering the cabin.
To fix this, DB uses high-precision lasers to engrave a microscopic pattern (like a fine grid or honeycomb) into the metallic coating. This creates tiny gaps in the metal that allow cell signals to penetrate the glass, boosting indoor reception by up to 100 times without compromising thermal insulation."

Would be great if a similar process was carried out to our 22x fleets and Eurostar e320 trains. CAF trains also seem to be poor too.
Click to expand...

Also on the 810 Aurora units. It works very well.
 
Trainben

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InvernessTMD said:
Has anyone had experience on the 222s? I'm not finding a huge wealth of passenger anecdotes online. I'm a little concerned at how bad the 220's reputation is (although that might just be XC tarnishing them beyond belief). Hoping the train that replaces the HST can live up to its predecessor
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They are decent trains, but they have a few flaws for me right now. First, that tapered Voyager-style profile can make the carriages feel a little claustrophobic compared to a 360 or 810. Second, EMR's recent upkeep has been poor. Given how expensive fares are, seeing ingrained dirt and blown window seals across the fleet has been a real bugbear of mine.
Underneath the grime, though, the 222s are mechanically solid and comfortable. Once ScotRail puts them through their upcoming refurbishment programme, they should be great units again.
 
InvernessTMD

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Trainben said:
They are decent trains, but they have a few flaws for me right now. First, that tapered Voyager-style profile can make the carriages feel a little claustrophobic compared to a 360 or 810. Second, EMR's recent upkeep has been poor. Given how expensive fares are, seeing ingrained dirt and blown window seals across the fleet has been a real bugbear of mine.
Underneath the grime, though, the 222s are mechanically solid and comfortable. Once ScotRail puts them through their upcoming refurbishment programme, they should be great units again.
Click to expand...
In my experience at least, ScotRail seems to be pretty good at keeping their rolling stock well maintained and cleaned. With any luck the 222s will be decent considering how most have said they are competent reliability and performance wise
 
D

Davester50

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InvernessTMD said:
In my experience at least, ScotRail seems to be pretty good at keeping their rolling stock well maintained and cleaned. With any luck the 222s will be decent considering how most have said they are competent reliability and performance wise
Click to expand...
There's a distinct lack of shampooing the seat covers. Even on the HSTs that aren't that long re-upholstered, the fabric is dirty.
170s are yuk. Should never have ditched the leatherette patch.
 
I

InvHst

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hexagon789 said:
They want 19 diagrams out of 22 units, vs 16 current HST diagrams.

At least one Highland Main Line working each way, probably the current 1033 north/1050 south, will need to remain a non-222 working as its needed to cycle units to and from Inverness depot.

I think someone said they would likely redo the timetable slightly for the 222s, and thus the diagrams will also probably be redone.
Click to expand...

The timetable will be redone for 222 operation ive heard that spoken about. Be interesting to find out what changes regarding unit cycles. As realistically without shuffles. Not much stuff out of Inverness will change massively because of what they form off of
 
H

Highlander1

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Davester50 said:
There's a distinct lack of shampooing the seat covers. Even on the HSTs that aren't that long re-upholstered, the fabric is dirty.
170s are yuk. Should never have ditched the leatherette patch.
Click to expand...
170s are currently undergoing a refresh of the interior along with the 158s. The ones that have been done look decent.
 
Avenger20

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Highlander1 said:
170s are currently undergoing a refresh of the interior along with the 158s. The ones that have been done look decent.
Click to expand...
It's just not enough though. On the 170s certainly, the ceiling panels are still caked in black soot. They needed a good ripping out like the XC 170s to be honest but I digress, this isn't the page to discuss it.
 
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