Motorail services in the 1970s

Dodrzet · 26 Jun 2026

I've had a pleasant morning going through the search results but I can't seem to find what I'm looking for! Could anyone enlighten me as to the general formation of the dedicated Motorail services, with either car flats or cartics, in the late 1970s?

I've gathered that they tended to use Mk1 FK which had seven compartments. Assume (always dangerous) one compartment per family (and car) that's two flats or one cartic per coach?

If I've managed to miss a previous thread / post on the subject then I sincerely apologise and please feel free to highlight!

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Rescars · 26 Jun 2026

My family used these services c1970. My recollection is as you say. All FKs apart from a dining car and accommodation for the guard, with carflats behind. There certainly was a time when one compartment per car was guaranteed - just as well 7 seater SUVs and people carriers hadn't been invented!

Sun Chariot · 26 Jun 2026

Hello @Dodrzet yes, I used to see the Motorail services on the southern end of the WCML. That was very end of 1970s and very early 1980s. Mk1 FKs plus BFK / BCK plus buffet. 7 to 9 carriages. Then the bogie motorail flats (latterly re-used early-build Mk1 chassis), typically 12 to 15 of them.

Occasionally I saw the cars pathed separately to the seated accommodation.

eastwestdivide · 26 Jun 2026

There’s a too big to quote thread (albeit missing some photos) over on rmweb at
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/108323-motorail /

edit: also https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/132763-motorail-trains-in-the-seventies/

On rolling stock, yes a high use of FK corridor firsts and of course sleepers on overnight trains that conveyed cars. For the cars, the Cartics didn’t last long on Motorail services, moving over to the wagon fleet fairly early. Some motorail services had covered vans, both GUV and the Newton Chambers TCV type. The latter ended up concentrated on the ECML services.

Sir Felix Pole · 26 Jun 2026

Overnight services as well, of course, usually with Sleeper Second (SLSTP) or Sleeper Either (SLEP) and some had RB or RMB buffets. Motorail vans were also available on some normal overnight services e.g. 'The Royal Highlander'.

Gloster · 26 Jun 2026

From 1966 to 1978 nine four-car sets, eight new-builds and the air-braked fitted prototype, were used on Motorail trains. They mainly operated from Kensington Olympia to destinations served by the West Coast Main Line, with Perth being the limit. On occasions they were used in the same train as Carflats.

It was not automatically one car per compartment. On the one occasion we used Motorail we shared with another three-strong family.

eastwestdivide · 26 Jun 2026

Gloster said:
From 1966 to 1978 nine four-car sets, eight new-builds and the air-braked fitted prototype, were used on Motorail trains…

Paul Bartlett suggests to 1972 at

BR Cartic 4 FQA

BR introduced a single 4 car set of a newly designed Car carrier late in 1964 - the Cartic 4. After trials with Ford, Motorail etc. a further 8 sets were built for Motorail, by Rootes (Pressed Steel). These were considered to be coaching stock, and built on an appropriate lot 30770. Apparently...

paulbartlett.zenfolio.com

while LTSV suggests 1978 at

Rail Data Profile

www.ltsv.com

We need a photo search!

Gloster · 26 Jun 2026

eastwestdivide said:
Paul Bartlett suggests to 1972 at

BR Cartic 4 FQA

BR introduced a single 4 car set of a newly designed Car carrier late in 1964 - the Cartic 4. After trials with Ford, Motorail etc. a further 8 sets were built for Motorail, by Rootes (Pressed Steel). These were considered to be coaching stock, and built on an appropriate lot 30770. Apparently...

paulbartlett.zenfolio.com

while LTSV suggests 1978 at

Rail Data Profile

www.ltsv.com

We need a photo search!

There may have been a slight element of confusion because after a while they were used for car deliveries outside the Motorail season. They were probably transferred to the wagon fleet in 1972 and renumbered (then or in 1978), but may have been borrowed back as necessary in the high season.

eastwestdivide · 26 Jun 2026

Spent a few too many minutes searching online for photos of cartics in Motorail service, and found very few. Kind of surprising.
Meanwhile there’s a great selection of scanned Motorail brochures including routes and timetables at Andy Gibbs’ site:

Motorail Remembered

I've always had a fascination with Motorail services and have started to build up a bit of a collection of leaflets and photos. I even managed to get a trip on the Motorail service between Edinburgh and Euston for my work with British Rail Business Systems, bringing a hire van back south after...

andygibbs.zenfolio.com

45Fox · 26 Jun 2026

Sun Chariot said:
Occasionally I saw the cars pathed separately to the seated accommodation.

Ran class 1 when operated as a separate train, I seem to remember.

Sun Chariot · 26 Jun 2026

45Fox said:
Ran class 1 when operated as a separate train, I seem to remember.

It certainly caught my youthful eye: a rake of car-filled bogie flats, barrelling along at express speed.

Springs Branch · 27 Jun 2026

Sun Chariot said:
I used to see the Motorail services on the southern end of the WCML. That was very end of 1970s and very early 1980s. Mk1 FKs plus BFK / BCK plus buffet. 7 to 9 carriages. Then the bogie motorail flats (latterly re-used early-build Mk1 chassis), typically 12 to 15 of them.

Occasionally I saw the cars pathed separately to the seated accommodation

Yes, in my youth I was puzzled one summer in the very early 1970s seeing a Brush Type 4 / Class 47 hauling a rake of all First Class Mk.1s, plus Restaurant Car, on the WCML through Wigan.

As a new-to-the-game trainspotter at the time, I thought it must be some 'Pullman' type of service. In fact it would have been one of the Scotland-bound Motorails in high season, running separate to its car carriers.

OT to the thread title, here are three pages from the May 1971 to April 1972 LMR Passenger Timetable covering BR's summer 1971 offering in what must have been around 'Peak Motorail' time.

Dodrzet · 27 Jun 2026

Thank you very much for all of your replies, especially @eastwestdivide. There's enough information in the links to keep me going for a while! Oddly enough I never thought of YouTube in this instance.

Helvellyn · 27 Jun 2026

The seasonal Euston-Stirling was a survivor until the mid-1980s. Also found it interesting that InterCity refurbished several Mk 1 FKs and two Mk 2 BFKs for this service - full InterCity livery, dusk pink moquette on all the seats and carpets throughout. As there was a surplus of FKs by this time I'd have thought the reason the Mk 1s weren't swapped for Mk 2A/B/C FKs was that the remaining carflats (renumbered in the 9625x and 9626x NPCCS series) were vacuum braked.

I wonder if the Clansman (Euston-Inverness) could have done better if they had turned it into a daily Euston-Stirling service with Motorail vans in place of the thrice-weekly Euston-Stirling and return service on alternate days? Could even have been timed to arrive at Stirling ahead of Northbound Highland Chieftain (and depart after the Soutbound one) to allow connections to/from stations Stirling-Inverness for West Coast passengers.

Taunton · 27 Jun 2026

In 1977 (at least) there was a once-daily Motorail Stirling to Inverness, just attached to a regular passenger service, northwards mornings, southwards afternoons. Supposedly provided as a bypass of the unimproved A9 road, it was a long tail behind of about 8 bogie carflats, if they were lucky with two or three cars overall. Occupants just rode in the regular coaches.

341o2 · 27 Jun 2026

Sir Felix Pole said:
Overnight services as well, of course, usually with Sleeper Second (SLSTP) or Sleeper Either (SLEP) and some had RB or RMB buffets. Motorail vans were also available on some normal overnight services e.g. 'The Royal Highlander'.

I remember Paddington to St Austell, overnight, as you say.mainly sleepers and carflats

MotCO · 27 Jun 2026

Were there any checks for overheight rolling stock caused by high vehicles?

I'm also aware that there was a Chunnel Tunnel fire caused by a long 'spring-loaded' car aerial (of the type popular in the 70's) freeing itself from its catch, and making contact with the OHLE. Were there any similar instances on Motorail services?

Snow1964 · 27 Jun 2026

This thread might have answered a question I never understood when I was young and spotting in Hampshire in late 1970s and 1980s.

Ford Transit vans were made at Southampton (adjacent to Wide Lane by the airport) and would often be seen in Eastleigh area as a trainload on what looked like car flats, I remember seeing some in BR blue but most wagons were brown, could these have been motorail wagons spare during winter season or when motorail services had been pared back.

Gloster · 27 Jun 2026

MotCO said:
Were there any checks for overheight rolling stock caused by high vehicles?

I'm also aware that there was a Chunnel Tunnel fire caused by a long 'spring-loaded' car aerial (of the type popular in the 70's) freeing itself from its catch, and making contact with the OHLE. Were there any similar instances on Motorail services?

There appear to be loading gauges fitted to the canopies at Olympia so any overheight would be obvious on loading. In one of the early photos, the one with two Minis (BMC’s finest, not contemporary fashion), also shows what looks like an inverted-U shaped wire gauge over the dip in a Cartic: it is not clear if this was fixed to the wagon, fixed to the canopy or portable.

I don’t know if the staff had instructions, but if any boy racer wanted to take his whiplash-aerial fitted grey Cortina on holiday, they probably had instructions to tie it down if it looked a bit dodgy. And if he complains about the paintwork, ask him if he’d like his car fried.

Snow1964 said:
This thread might have answered a question I never understood when I was young and spotting in Hampshire in late 1970s and 1980s.

Ford Transit vans were made at Southampton (adjacent to Wide Lane by the airport) and would often be seen in Eastleigh area as a trainload on what looked like car flats, I remember seeing some in BR blue but most wagons were brown, could these have been motorail wagons spare during winter season or when motorail services had been pared back.

The blue ones were quite likely Motorail ones.

Sir Felix Pole · 27 Jun 2026

BR did get a few claims for damage to vehicles on carflats caused by flying ballast - I seem to remember on the Totnes / St. Austell Motorail protectors for windscreens were used for a time.

D6130 · 27 Jun 2026

Sir Felix Pole said:
BR did get a few claims for damage to vehicles on carflats caused by flying ballast - I seem to remember on the Totnes / St. Austell Motorail protectors for windscreens were used for a time.

.....flying ballast? Plus other types of stone propelled from bridge parapets by the hands of ne'er-do-wells! :'(

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jun 2026 ==

Sun Chariot said:
Occasionally I saw the cars pathed separately to the seated accommodation.

IIRC, during the last few years of Motorail services, this was the norm. Unfortunately there was the well-publicised (in the tabloid press) incident when large numbers of happy, refreshed holidaymakers alighted from their sleeping cars at Inverness, raring to drive off into the Highlands....only to discover that their cars were still at Nuneaton - their class 85 having failed! I think this incident must have hastened the demise of Motorail. :'(

Gloster · 27 Jun 2026

D6130 said:
.....flying ballast? Plus other types of stone propelled from bridge parapets by the hands of ne'er-do-wells!

This, I understand, was one of the reasons that BR preferred to use covered vehicles, latterly BR GUV, on night trains. Although ‘yoof’ might loiter a bit, daylight tended to have a dampening effect on their appetite for risk and expectations of getting away with it. After dark some were emboldened by the increased likelihood that nobody would be able to identify them.

Rescars · 27 Jun 2026

Sir Felix Pole said:
BR did get a few claims for damage to vehicles on carflats caused by flying ballast - I seem to remember on the Totnes / St. Austell Motorail protectors for windscreens were used for a time.

These also had the benefit of protecting windscreens from a journey's worth of greasy diesel smuts - a serious challenge even for the much lamented Clearalex!

As regards height etc, I do recall the requirement to remove luggage from roofracks - for obvious reasons. Happily an era before bicycles were carried on roof bars! I'd guess aerials had to be retracted or removed.

Can anyone recall who drove the cars on and off? Was it BR staff or the owners? If the former, were the car insurers happy? If the latter, who kept the drivers under control?! Were the cars locked? Who kept hold of the keys and made sure they arrived with the cars? IIRC some cars' wheels were chocked, but not all. Just the first car on each carflat perhaps?

D6130 · 27 Jun 2026

Rescars said:
Can anyone recall who drove the cars on and off? Was it BR staff or the owners? If the former, were the car insurers happy? If the latter, who kept the drivers under control?! Were the cars locked? Who kept hold of the keys and made sure they arrived with the cars? IIRC some cars' wheels were chocked, but not all. Just the first car on each carflat perhaps?

It was BR staff. I'm not sure by whom or where the keys were kept during the journey. Someone else may remember?

MotCO · 27 Jun 2026

Rescars said:
These also had the benefit of protecting windscreens from a journey's worth of greasy diesel smuts - a serious challenge even for the much lamented Clearalex!

Our acquisition of a brand new Ford Anglia was delayed by a day or so, whilst the dealership removed diesel spots from the car!

I don't know if it was true back then, but modern cars can only be transported by train at high speeds facing forwards, since the rear windows are made of thin glass to reduce weight, and would not withstand the effects of high speed.

eastwestdivide · 27 Jun 2026

Rescars said:
If the former, were the car insurers happy?

Those brochures I linked to earlier have a lot of small print about insurance - worth a look?

sh24 · 27 Jun 2026

341o2 said:
I remember Paddington to St Austell, overnight, as you say.mainly sleepers and carflats

By the 80's that was a daytime train. Initially combined passengers and flats, then flats only with passengers taking a HST down.

leezer3 · 28 Jun 2026

MotCO said:
I don't know if it was true back then, but modern cars can only be transported by train at high speeds facing forwards, since the rear windows are made of thin glass to reduce weight, and would not withstand the effects of high speed.

Nonsense- total myth.

It makes absolutely no difference. Look at any road transporter you pass- they get loaded in whatever direction is convenient, and at all sorts of interesting angles too.

The only reason they're loaded facing forwards is that rail stock is roll-on-roll-off...

The exile · 28 Jun 2026

Rescars said:
Can anyone recall who drove the cars on and off? Was it BR staff or the owners? If the former, were the car insurers happy?

Why would they worry - they wouldn’t be on the hook for any claim, the government would.

Rescars · 28 Jun 2026

MotCO said:
Our acquisition of a brand new Ford Anglia was delayed by a day or so, whilst the dealership removed diesel spots from the car!

I don't know if it was true back then, but modern cars can only be transported by train at high speeds facing forwards, since the rear windows are made of thin glass to reduce weight, and would not withstand the effects of high speed.

If your Ford Anglia was of the variety flown by Harry Potter and chums with a raked rear window, then the impact of air pressure if transported backwards might have had interesting results.

Motorail services in the 1970s

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