Or develop batteries which do not need rare earth minerals or any materials where China is the monopoly supplier. If we can control the supply chain, we would be in a much better position.
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Bus Manufacturer News & Discussion
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Trainman40083
Established Member
Well rare earths are in magnets too . Does that put them in mobile phones too? I guess China has been pumping money into many countries around the world, in exchange for their raw materials...
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Then there is Nottingham (Yutong, some Wrightbus, but probably no more) , Oxford, Plymouth (both Go Ahead) The list can go on. Must check Warrington. Certainly Volvo. Transdev had electric Citaros... Many smaller operators are buying stock ADLs, but they are also buying Volvo EvoRas.
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Okay
Okay, I agree. ADLs rattle. They have the suspension of a jack hammer. Some even have a b...dy sun roof...Do I want to ride in a greenhouse? No? Do I want to get off with back ache? No...Does that influence my mode of transport? Definitely. Luckily I have a car and a choice of bus operator.
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Okay
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I fear you are missing the point. It's no one element that is the factor, it's how China has developed across pretty much every sector of manufacturing and now even design.
Raw materials are certainly a factor, but we can get rare earths from elsewhere - we don't have the facilities to process them, and it will be the work of a decade and more to build that capacity. Even with semiconductors, China has developed processes and devices to compete and in some cases surpass western companies. Maybe not at the cutting edge, but for every processor fabricated at the leading edge, there are hundreds of semiconductors produced on more established processes. Indeed, the smaller geometries aren't necessarily suitable for industrial and automotive applications.
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It's a decades long project. No Western country will have the political will to undertake anything like that at the best of times, but as we would be playing catch-up, the costs at the outset and the time to payoff would be substantial.
There are benefits to dictatorships and one party states, at least on a macro scale.
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Technically they were not pure ADL as they were also a big customer of Optare, mainly for Solos and Versas.
Tom Gallacher
Member
They accepted a lower rise a couple of years ago when ADL threatened to close one of the two body building plants. ADL held both plants to ransom, Scarborough blinked but Falkirk held firm. Once Falkirk went (it was obvious that one of the plants would shut anyway) Scarborough simply turned the tables and asked for a pay rise. Maybe they were just biding their time until they held the upper hand but it was always going to happen. ADL will probably be happy if they go on strike for a couple of days/weeks as it will save them money on wages without causing much disruption.
Trainman40083
Established Member
I have seen a few companies over the years, that wanted their staff to go on strike, so it would save them money. Imagine ADL saying to staff "We are going to have to put you on the 3 day week"!!
My mind immediately went to the German Kurzarbeit scheme, whereby when certain requirements are fulfilled in terms of background reason and percentage of workers affected, the company can enforce "short-time working", with government subsidy topping up the wages. Such a scheme here, not quite the same as Furlough, might allow for companies to "weather the storm" of a short-term loss of orders without necessarily needing to make redundancies each time.
TheSmiths82
Member
TGFM seem to have a policy of only buying British buses where possible but that does mean (for now at least) a Labour run organisation is funding donations to Reform under as longs as the Bamford's own Wrightbus. The policy should at least help ADL but unless other franchises operations do the same thing it won't be long before the UK has just one major bus company left. I think Mellor might go soon too as their minibuses have a bad reputation for reliability, at least the FIAT based ones do on the TGFM fleet.
You buy Fiat, you buy unreliability ... just ask the ambulance services.
stevieinselby
Established Member
The Orion might not have had many takers, but the Strata seems to be remaining popular. But after the Sigma flopped, I can see them remaining as coachbuilders for now rather than trying to build integrals.
And much as I would prefer not to be funding Reform, refusing to buy British because of the political leanings of the owner of the company is probably not something that any public body should be trying to do.
Pretty sure the Sigma wasn't build by Mellor. I'm sure it was a Chinese built bus imported by Mellor to the UK and some Mellor badges stuck to it.
Dfatcontroller
Member
Think the Sigma range was built by Weisheit?
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So you'd rather they buy Yutongs as not helping Reform (I'm being tongue in cheek)? I'd rather money stayed in UK, keeping British citizens employed and contributing to our economy.
Government really does need to look at how they help UK manufacturing, and not just buses. Yutongs may be better but they churn out hundreds a day so they can invest and expect have much Government support.
ADL, Wrightbus et al aren't going to be able to invest if very few buses are sold. They do need to be given a chance.
Net zero is all well and good but at what cost if we have no manufacturing left? Not too sure how long it takes an electric bus from China just to recover CO2 emissions of boat that brought it? Do Government consider that when they twitter on about how they're helping reduce emissions?
joieman
Member
Also known as Weisheit... I don't know why they are also known by a German name!
GusB
Established Member
Money is staying in the UK when operators purchase Yutongs. While the shells (including driveline) are imported from China, the final fittings are done by Pelican Bus & Coach.
Completed in the UK
pelicanyutong.co.uk
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Some money but not as much as if product is completely built here.Money is staying in the UK when operators purchase Yutongs. While the shells (including driveline) are imported from China, the final fittings are done by Pelican Bus & Coach.
Completed in the UK
There's still the massive CO2 footprint caused by moving those shells etc from China to UK.
GusB
Established Member
Your lack of knowledge about the UK bus-building industry is really showing here. You have to go back to to the early- to mid-1980s before you can really claim that a particular vehicle is purely British-built. Engines and transmissions have been supplied by ZF (German), Voith (German), Cummins (American), Allison (American) and Volvo (Swedish) for decades.
Bornin1980s
Member
- Joined
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- 720
I understand most of the Cummins engines are made in Darlington.
m79900
Member
And you can' deny that it's better for the economy if a bus is entirely designed and built in the UK, even if some major components are imported (and it looks like Cummins engines aren't one of them)
GusB
Established Member
They may be built in Darlington, but it's still an American company.
Obviously it's better for the UK economy if every component is designed and manufactured here, but you need to go back in time a fair bit before you can make the claim that a particular product is solely UK-built. My point is that it's better to have some UK content than none at all.
Sorry, but while I know this seems obvious, it isn’t. Most people who have studied economics would disagree with the idea that we should try to supply everything domestically. On average people are made better off by international trade, and if you are going to use people and other resources to export stuff you are also going to need to import things as well. Actually, “need” is misleading - it is a benefit to have access to imports if they are of higher quality and value than domestic supply.
I remember in the 70's and 80's, the Balance of Payments was reported on by the news media every month, i.e. the difference in value between imports and exports. It no longer seems important today for some reason, but it can affect the value of the £. If we have a surplus of imports over exports, the value of the £ could fall, meaning that imports will be more expensive. Maybe that's what we need - devalue the £, imports from China and elsewhere will be more expensive, and domestic production will be encouraged. However, it will mean oil goods will be more expensive, and inflation will increase.
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I do know that, I appreciate lots of components are bought in but more that's built in UK the better. I doubt there are many things that are entirely manufactured in one country as lots used bought in components.
Remember Cummins built engines in Darlington despite being an American firm.
No need to be quite so rude and possibly think a bit about what you're writing as doesn't just apply to bus industry.
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Hyebone
Member
Really informative. Thanks for sharing.
brightonbususe
Member
Great documentary, I did chuckle at hearing the classic ADL rattles when he took the brand new bus on a test drive though.
Steve440
Member
I have to laugh at the mention of ADL rattles but they are not alone. I travelled on a couple of 26 reg Traws Cymru evoras in June and they were terrible rattling things.
In fairness, what modern vehicle doesn’t? Our roads are in a shocking state, and a bus by its very nature is full of fixtures and fittings which will rattle to some extent when the vehicle is continuously crashing over potholes and cratered road surfaces! I would imagine if you drove an ADL product, or indeed any other product, around a smooth test track it’d be fine, but sadly our roads are very much not in that sort of state. It’s noticeable that even modern coaches are prone to it, despite them being almost exclusively heavyweight and there being far fewer fittings to work loose!