Welwyn Garden City to Kings Cross - what's the record?

railman7 · 21 Jun 2026

As someone who regualry has to put up with an overly slow service from Welwyn GC to London, I had the pleasure yesterday of taking the 12.14 from WGC to KGX (1T25), which ran an 8 car direct in exactly 20 minutes!

It was routed up the fast just before Welham Green/Brookmans park, due to a rail issue earlier.

Anyone know whats the record on this route?

My great grand father used to run these trains in the 1940s and said the record from WGC was about 20 minutes and that was with steam traction!

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Failed Unit · 21 Jun 2026

There are a few I have managed in 17-18 minutes. Not sure if where it joins the fast matters. At WGC to me has given the best runs but Marshmoor is still fast if you are on greens.

It is the Finsbury Park - King’s Cross bit that makes or breaks it. (Waiting for platforms)

18 was defeated possible on the 365s

jon0844 · 21 Jun 2026

railman7 said:
As someone who regualry has to put up with an overly slow service from welwyn gc to london I had the pleasure yesterday of taking the 12.14 from WGC to KGX which ran an 8 car direct in exactly 20 minutes![1T25] Picking up the fast just before Welham Green/Brookmans park. Although this was only due train pathing due to a rail issue earlier. Anyone know whats the record on this route? My great grand father used to run these trains in the 1940s and said the record from wgc was about 20 minutes and that was with steam traction!

There was another at 1614 that started out from platform 1 so might have been able to shave a few seconds off by avoiding the flyover! Both were trains that were supposed to have started from Kings Lynn, but were out of position due to what happened on Friday night.

notverydeep · 21 Jun 2026

On Mondays to Fridays there is just one scheduled nonstop train from King’s Cross to Welwyn Garden City; train 1C98 leaves King’s Cross at 18:54 and arrives at WGC 16 minutes later at 19:10. It is a Cambridge semi-fast ‘peak’ train, others are first stop Welwyn North (last stop in the London bound direction).

Failed Unit · 21 Jun 2026

I have even known it arrive ontime. (frequently struggling through Finsbury Park as it needs to stay behind a Thameslink to Peterborough)

railman7 · 21 Jun 2026

Interesting, it was a reasonably busy service yesterday as I briefly looked up the platform at kings cross there were at least 100+ passengers disembarking. If there was a regular hourly express just from WGC to london and vice versa it certainly would be popular! It would free up some seats on the stoppers which usually get rammed.

jon0844 · 21 Jun 2026

notverydeep said:
On Mondays to Fridays there is just one scheduled nonstop train from King’s Cross to Welwyn Garden City; train 1C98 leaves King’s Cross at 18:54 and arrives at WGC 16 minutes later at 19:10. It is a Cambridge semi-fast ‘peak’ train, others are first stop Welwyn North (last stop in the London bound direction).

As I said elsewhere about this train, it's a fill in because there's currently no 1858 (at WGC) service. This means Potters Bar and Hatfield has an hour gap in service.

When this train is reinstated at some point, I expect the fast train will return to first stop Welwyn North. It would be great if it is kept, but given the 1854 departure time being near the end of a peak period it isn't as valuable as if there was one 1-1.5 hours before.

Failed Unit · 21 Jun 2026

I understand that the 1827 can’t run because of conflicts with LNER services (Someone said the the Middlesbrough service at 1845)

That said it is useful. Thameslink helps for London passengers. There is a similar gap heading into London where there is long gap.

jon0844 · 21 Jun 2026

Failed Unit said:
I understand that the 1827 can’t run because of conflicts with LNER services (Someone said the the Middlesbrough service at 1845)

That said it is useful. Thameslink helps for London passengers. There is a similar gap heading into London where there is long gap.

It's quite crazy to have created a timetable where people wanting to get to Potters Bar or Hatfield (and indeed Alexandra Palace) from King's Cross have an hour wait in the evening peak. Great for WGC users of course, but hopefully only a temporary solution to a bigger scheduling issue.

Failed Unit · 21 Jun 2026

It is the gap between the 0908 and 0952 I was thinking about in the morning peak, with no thameslink service to plug the london market gap.

Not sure if the call at WGC on the 1854, is purely to give some option for passengers going north from the stations between Finsbury Park and Welwyn Garden City (by using the local train)

It does create an odd situation for me at work, If I don’t get the 1757, I might as well stay and get the 1854 as the extra speed of it makes it worthwhile.

Richardr · 21 Jun 2026

railman7 said:
Interesting, it was a reasonably busy service yesterday as I briefly looked up the platform at kings cross there were at least 100+ passengers disembarking. If there was a regular hourly express just from WGC to london and vice versa it certainly would be popular! It would free up some seats on the stoppers which usually get rammed.

Wouldn't yesterday have been increased well beyond normal by the lack of a St Pancras to Bedford service, and for which, given there was planned engineering work, there were replacement buses over to the Kings Cross line?

Magdalia · 21 Jun 2026

railman7 said:
As someone who regualry has to put up with an overly slow service from Welwyn GC to London, I had the pleasure yesterday of taking the 12.14 from WGC to KGX (1T25), which ran an 8 car direct in exactly 20 minutes!

It was routed up the fast just before Welham Green/Brookmans park, due to a rail issue earlier.

Anyone know whats the record on this route?

My great grand father used to run these trains in the 1940s and said the record from WGC was about 20 minutes and that was with steam traction!

There have been very few Welwyn Garden City-Kings Cross non-stop runs since the Welwyn Garden City stops in the Cambridge Buffet Expresses were taken out in 1973. Up to that point, the public timetable start to stop booked time that I have found is 25 minutes.

I have extensive experience of timing GN suburban trains on the southern end of the ECML, but I can only find one Welwyn Garden City-Kings Cross non-stop run, which was a late running stopper. The Welwyn Garden City-Kings Cross time was 20m22s, but it passed Finsbury Park in 13m36s and was stopped for signals outside the terminus. A clear run in would have given a time of about 19 minutes.

I have more Welwyn Garden City-Finsbury Park non-stop runs, and the fastest is 13m3s.

Failed Unit said:
There are a few I have managed in 17-18 minutes. Not sure if where it joins the fast matters. At WGC to me has given the best runs but Marshmoor is still fast if you are on greens.

Going out onto the fast line at Welwyn Garden City is significantly faster. The up slow is 75mph to Marshmoor then 70mph over the crossover, whereas a train going onto the up fast at Welwyn Garden City will be doing 90mph at Marshmoor.

I'd agree that a non-stop run Welwyn Garden City-Kings Cross in around 18 minutes is plausible.

However, all of these are significantly slower than Kings Cross-Welwyn North non-stop runs on the down road, where my record is 15m53s. On the down I've done Kings Cross-Stevenage in less than 20 minutes in 100mph EMUs.

In the grand scheme of things Welwyn Garden City-Kings Cross in about 20 minutes isn't very special.

Segedunum · 21 Jun 2026

Failed Unit said:
I understand that the 1827 can’t run because of conflicts with LNER services (Someone said the the Middlesbrough service at 1845)

That said it is useful. Thameslink helps for London passengers. There is a similar gap heading into London where there is long gap.

The issue with an 1827 would be that 1N98 1842 Kings Cross to Newcastle (Lumo) occupies Stevenage P4 for six minutes so it can be looped by the Middlesbrough LNER service.

1N98 then effectively leaves Stevenage in roughly the path of where that 1827 would run.

Failed Unit · 21 Jun 2026

Segedunum said:
The issue with an 1827 would be that 1N98 1842 Kings Cross to Newcastle (Lumo) occupies Stevenage P4 for six minutes so it can be looped by the Middlesbrough LNER service.

1N98 then effectively leaves Stevenage in roughly the path of where that 1827 would run.

I know there will be good reasons, but why not swap the 2 around so the Lumo doesn’t need to be looped.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jun 2026 ==

Magdalia said:
There have been very few Welwyn Garden City-Kings Cross non-stop runs since the Welwyn Garden City stops in the Cambridge Buffet Expresses were taken out in 1973. Up to that point, the public timetable start to stop booked time that I have found is 25 minutes.

I have extensive experience of timing GN suburban trains on the southern end of the ECML, but I can only find one Welwyn Garden City-Kings Cross non-stop run, which was a late running stopper. The Welwyn Garden City-Kings Cross time was 20m22s, but it passed Finsbury Park in 13m36s and was stopped for signals outside the terminus. A clear run in would have given a time of about 19 minutes.

I have more Welwyn Garden City-Finsbury Park non-stop runs, and the fastest is 13m3s.

Going out onto the fast line at Welwyn Garden City is significantly faster. The up slow is 75mph to Marshmoor then 70mph over the crossover, whereas a train going onto the up fast at Welwyn Garden City will be doing 90mph at Marshmoor.

I'd agree that a non-stop run Welwyn Garden City-Kings Cross in around 18 minutes is plausible.

However, all of these are significantly slower than Kings Cross-Welwyn North non-stop runs on the down road, where my record is 15m53s. On the down I've done Kings Cross-Stevenage in less than 20 minutes in 100mph EMUs.

In the grand scheme of things Welwyn Garden City-Kings Cross in about 20 minutes isn't very special.

The only regular (using this term loosely) services that run non stop are the Kings Lynn- London services in disruption. Not sure why they get a WGC call. I know WGC gets more than its fair share of extra stops because of the depot.

jon0844 · 21 Jun 2026

Failed Unit said:
I know there will be good reasons, but why not swap the 2 around so the Lumo doesn’t need to be looped.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jun 2026 ==

The only regular (using this term loosely) services that run non stop are the Kings Lynn- London services in disruption. Not sure why they get a WGC call. I know WGC gets more than its fair share of extra stops because of the depot.

The two trains yesterday started from WGC and came from the depot. A 379 and 387 respectively. They were presumably both stock in the wrong location after Friday's incidents.

yorkie · 21 Jun 2026

Failed Unit said:
I know there will be good reasons, but why not swap the 2 around so the Lumo doesn’t need to be looped.

If anyone has any suggestions for timetable/pathing changes, please do feel free to post them in the Speculative Discussion section.

However, please do note that changing something in one place may have repercussions further along the line, so it may not be as straightforward as at first glance.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jun 2026 ==

Magdalia said:
In the grand scheme of things Welwyn Garden City-Kings Cross in about 20 minutes isn't very special.

Agreed. Despite a lack of 125mph running, the 225s do London to Stevenage in 19 minutes.

The issues are related to pathing and capacity.

Some people are keen for a fast non-stop service from their local station to London, but of course aren't keen for intermediate stops at other people's stations

Failed Unit · 21 Jun 2026

Magdalia said:
There have been very few Welwyn Garden City-Kings Cross non-stop runs since the Welwyn Garden City stops in the Cambridge Buffet Expresses were taken out in 1973. Up to that point, the public timetable start to stop booked time that I have found is 25 minutes.

I have extensive experience of timing GN suburban trains on the southern end of the ECML, but I can only find one Welwyn Garden City-Kings Cross non-stop run, which was a late running stopper. The Welwyn Garden City-Kings Cross time was 20m22s, but it passed Finsbury Park in 13m36s and was stopped for signals outside the terminus. A clear run in would have given a time of about 19 minutes.

I was looking at timetables for the past 20 years -23 minutes with a stop at Finsbury Park was the common one back in the past, when many morning peak services ran non-stop from WGC - Finsbury Park, they were very full as at the time they were also the only trains to / from cambridge stopping there.

Segedunum · 21 Jun 2026

Failed Unit said:
I know there will be good reasons, but why not swap the 2 around so the Lumo doesn’t need to be looped.

The 1839 Kings Cross to Leeds calls at Stevenage too so having an 1842 with no Stevenage call would foul the required minimum headways and would need pathing allowance to maintain it. You may as well have a longer Stevenage call on the one booked to stop and a clearer run on the non-stopper.

An additional Letchworth would also call at Welwyn North at 1900ish when you have the Lumo passing at 1858 and LNER Middlesbrough at 1901. There's no path for it and the knock-on to the Middlesbrough for any retiming can be extreme. The ECS move that goes back to Heaton is extremely tightly timed between Northern & Metro services. Suddenly your additional service for Welwyn passengers has had an impact to a train's path on Wearside.

Your best hope would be trying to stick a Welwyn GC call into the 1824 off Kings Cross but that could well knacker the path past Hitchin and require a stop removing past there. However as said above, this is best left for speculative discussion if anyone wants to discuss unpicking south end of the ECML!

Failed Unit · 21 Jun 2026

Interesting example of a regular interval service making way for an open-access.

That said GTR could run the service to Welwyn Garden City if demand existed. Thank-you will leave it there or split the thread if the discussion is to continue.

nw1 · 22 Jun 2026

Failed Unit said:
I was looking at timetables for the past 20 years -23 minutes with a stop at Finsbury Park was the common one back in the past, when many morning peak services ran non-stop from WGC - Finsbury Park, they were very full as at the time they were also the only trains to / from cambridge stopping there.

This appears to be the case as long ago as 1982 for the fastest services (peak only). For example 1730 KX, 1736 FP, 1753 WGC. There were only two evening peak services with this pattern, though, the other (1710) taking 2 mins longer. I guess it was 312s at this time?

Mcr Warrior · 22 Jun 2026

railman7 said:
As someone who regualry has to put up with an overly slow service from Welwyn GC to London, I had the pleasure yesterday of taking the 12.14 from WGC to KGX (1T25), which ran an 8 car direct in exactly 20 minutes!

That's not that too bad considering it's jusf over 20 miles from Welwyn Garden City into London Kings Cross, and it'll take some time to accelerate up to line speed, whatever that actually is, and then to slow down again at the end of the journey. So, what would be the theoretical minimum time to do the run non-stop? 15mins?

nw1 · 22 Jun 2026

jon0844 said:
It's quite crazy to have created a timetable where people wanting to get to Potters Bar or Hatfield (and indeed Alexandra Palace) from King's Cross have an hour wait in the evening peak. Great for WGC users of course, but hopefully only a temporary solution to a bigger scheduling issue.

Is this the case even with Thameslinks, incidentally? i.e. are there Thameslinks in the intervening period which are relatively fast?

jon0844 · 22 Jun 2026

nw1 said:
Is this the case even with Thameslinks, incidentally? i.e. are there Thameslinks in the intervening period which are relatively fast?

With the loss of a 2Lxx service in the peak, prompting the extra WGC stop on a 1Cxx train, the stops at FPK, AAP, PBR and HAT are not served by anything else (other than a Moorgate to WGC service, or a Sevenoaks to WGC train - both of which mean travelling to St Pancras or Finsbury Park first).

nw1 · 22 Jun 2026

jon0844 said:
With the loss of a 2Lxx service in the peak, prompting the extra WGC stop on a 1Cxx train, the stops at FPK, AAP, PBR and HAT are not served by anything else (other than a Moorgate to WGC service, or a Sevenoaks to WGC train - both of which mean travelling to St Pancras or Finsbury Park first).

I guess St Pancras isn't too big a deal to get to though?

Ian Umpleby · 22 Jun 2026

railman7 said:
As someone who regualry has to put up with an overly slow service from Welwyn GC to London, I had the pleasure yesterday of taking the 12.14 from WGC to KGX (1T25), which ran an 8 car direct in exactly 20 minutes!

It was routed up the fast just before Welham Green/Brookmans park, due to a rail issue earlier.

Anyone know whats the record on this route?

My great grand father used to run these trains in the 1940s and said the record from WGC was about 20 minutes and that was with steam traction!

The Railway Performance Society's Archive has 317 runs nonstop between Welwyn Garden City and Kings Cross all between 1935 and 1968.There have maybe been few timetabled WGC-KGX services since, but I'll leave that to somebody with more time on their hands to find out!
For the record on the 17th January 1961 a class 31 no 5641 hauling 7 coaches on the 1733 Ely-Kings Cross made the fastest time of 20m 51 secs.

Welwyn Garden City to Kings Cross - what's the record?

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