Southeastern planning to restore pre-Covid frequencies on Dartford lines

Mattplans · 11 Jun 2026

NorthKent1989 said:
Agreed, by avoiding junction delays by encouraging people to change trains you’re not actually saving any time for the passengers in my experience

Yes but you are making the railway more reliable for customers. Any train running late that misses its path over the junction can end up waiting a ridiculous amount of time. It happens with Victoria - Gravesend at least 3 times a day. Note that previously there were at least 12 more crossings (Sidcup-Slade Green, Orpington, Hayes) x2 services crossing the junction as there are today. It's not difficult to understand why there's a desire here to reduce the crossings as much as possible.

As for the frequency of services, I feel it's one of those things that if you choose not to understand it, then you're never going to understand it. The current timetable has awfully lopsided waiting times all in favour of maintaining tenuous links because they are "long standing". There's a reason why Southeastern is losing passengers on neighbouring lines to Eliz and DLR. A sustained high frequency service is always going to beat 30 m waiting time links. If you go to Beckton DLR and travel to Stratford International, you see a direct service; great. If not, you board the first one and change at Canning Town and it's done. No big deal.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2026 ==

NorthKent1989 said:
This as well, railways in SE London are a different beast to other parts of London, the Dartford routes alone are a network in their own right with a mix of inner suburban metro services and semi fast outer surburban ones

I would love to know what you mean by this. No one living between London and Dartford benefits from a semi fast service?

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NorthKent1989 · 11 Jun 2026

Mattplans said:
Yes but you are making the railway more reliable for customers

Are you? A missed connection at London Bridge can delay you and is actually more annoying

Mattplans said:
As for the frequency of services, I feel it's one of those things that if you choose not to understand it, then you're never going to understand it

I do understand it, I’m not “choosing not to understand it” thank you.

Mattplans said:
There's a reason why Southeastern is losing passengers on neighbouring lines to Eliz and DLR.

SE was losing passengers when they put out that ridiculous timetable in 2022 which not only had large gaps between services but broke local longstanding links, there was no Sunday service to Lewisham from Woolwich for example.

SE was still busy during the brief overlap from when the EL opened in Spring 2022 to when SE changed the timetable in the December and the months of disruption that came with it caused people to give up on SE.

Mattplans said:
I would love to know what you mean by this. No one living between London and Dartford benefits from a semi fast service?

Until very a few years ago you had semi fast Gillingham trains on the Woolwich line and the Sidcups also had fast LB to New Eltham trains, even TfL’s metroisation document acknowledges the possibility of such services being a possibility if TfL took over, as they’d not take over Medway services

The nonsensical Thameslink Rainham service aside it’s utterly ridiculous that you have a Medway service that calls at nearly every station between there and London.

There may not be strictly semi fasts services right now but there are skip stopping services, the Thameslink Medway service skips Erith, Belvedere and Woolwich Dockyard, CST trains from Sidcup skip Lewisham, Gravesend services from Victoria via Bexleyheath runs fast between Dartford and Gravesend with only a call at Greenhithe

Mattplans · 11 Jun 2026

NorthKent1989 said:
There may not be strictly semi fasts services right now but there are skip stopping services

So there's one service that skips 3 stations every 30 minutes to save 6 minutes. I wouldn't use this alone to define the Dartford services as "a mix of inner suburban metro services and semi fast outer surburban ones". Similarly, there are no time savings on services that skip Lewisham. It is only done to avoid congesting the area. The same applies for the couple of services that run via Sidcup that miss Lee, it's done to avoid congestion and overcrowding. It's hardly evidence of "a mix of inner suburban metro services and semi fast outer surburban services". There are also no time savings on the Thameslink services missing Woolwich Dyrd, Belvedere and Erith.

NorthKent1989 said:
Until very a few years ago you had semi fast Gillingham trains on the Woolwich line and the Sidcups also had fast LB to New Eltham trains, even TfL’s metroisation document acknowledges the possibility of such services being a possibility if TfL took over, as they’d not take over Medway services

And none of these services exist anymore. Perhaps in the past you could've argued the Dartford services were "a mix of inner suburban metro services and semi fast outer surburban ones", but it does not apply today.

NCT · 11 Jun 2026

Seems some people want Southeastern to forever reflect the London of 20 years ago they remember. A lot of fundamental changes have taken place and are continuing to take place:

- There's a lot of current and planned high-density developments across the Dartford Lines geography
- They City has considerably grown in importance as a leisure destination
- Canary Wharf, Stratford and the South Bank are now just as important as the traditional City and West End
- London Bridge station is much improved with no services skipping the station anymore

Also, labour and office markets have become much more fluid. Companies move offices. Changing job every 3 to 5 years is now the norm. The idea of building your life around a specific Charing Cross commute is outdated. The proportion of total passengers that are sensitive to Charing Cross vs Cannon Street trains is much diminished.

What this means in terms of Southeastern service pattern design
- There's an impetuous for maximising capacity to respond to development and demographic change
- As many trains as possible should serve Lewisham - to allow DLR interchange to CW and Stratford, and provide the capacity for all the developments at Lewisham itself.

The above can be achieved by eliminating crossing moves at Lewisham Crossover Junction, but can't be achieved if the current criss-cross patterns are maintained. This would effectively mean
- All Hayes and Grove Park inners operate to Charing Cross via Lewisham (peak 6tph each, off-peak 4tph each)
- Sidcup to Victoria via Lewisham (4tph), Sidcup to Cannon Street bypassing Lewisham (4tph)
- All Blackheath services go to Cannon Street
- All Greenwich services go to Cannon street

cle · 11 Jun 2026

NCT said:
The above can be achieved by eliminating crossing moves at Lewisham Crossover Junction, but can't be achieved if the current criss-cross patterns are maintained. This would effectively mean
- All Hayes and Grove Park inners operate to Charing Cross via Lewisham (peak 6tph each, off-peak 4tph each)
- Sidcup to Victoria via Lewisham (4tph), Sidcup to Cannon Street bypassing Lewisham (4tph)
- All Blackheath services go to Cannon Street
- All Greenwich services go to Cannon street

The issue here is the loopers - unless we have the same 4 (Blackheath - Greenwich) - without service to Dartford. And that comes from a reinstatement of the 'semi-fast' to Rainham via Blackheath and Woolwich. Stopping pattern, I'm less worried about - but should be faster from Dartford.

The Sidcup line should have a looper too - I also think 8tph is too much for Sidcup vs the others. Ideally all would be 6tph.

wls1 · 11 Jun 2026

Mattplans said:
And none of these services exist anymore. Perhaps in the past you could've argued the Dartford services were "a mix of inner suburban metro services and semi fast outer surburban ones", but it does not apply today.

Semi fast services do still exist on the Sidcup line: 4 services in the AM fast from New Eltham to London Bridge, (two starting at Crayford and two at Strood) and one evening peak return from Charing X - Gillingham fast to New Eltham and one Charing X - Dartford via Lewisham skipping Lee/Mottingham, these are very well used services.

Despite the commuting numbers still being down across SE London and the Elizabeth line taking over many passengers that still do commute into Central London, the Sidcup line is very busy in comparison to the Woolwich line. These semi fast services are very welcome and very well used comparing to the passenger numbers on the Woolwich line west of Abbey Wood.

NorthKent1989 · 11 Jun 2026

Mattplans said:
So there's one service that skips 3 stations every 30 minutes to save 6 minutes. I wouldn't use this alone to define the Dartford services as "a mix of inner suburban metro services and semi fast outer surburban ones". Similarly, there are no time savings on services that skip Lewisham. It is only done to avoid congesting the area. The same applies for the couple of services that run via Sidcup that miss Lee, it's done to avoid congestion and overcrowding. It's hardly evidence of "a mix of inner suburban metro services and semi fast outer surburban services". There are also no time savings on the Thameslink services missing Woolwich Dyrd, Belvedere and Erith.

And none of these services exist anymore. Perhaps in the past you could've argued the Dartford services were "a mix of inner suburban metro services and semi fast outer surburban ones", but it does not apply today.

Maybe not but Gillingham/Rainham is very much outer suburban and therefore beyond TfL’s London Overground’a reach, and it’s only because of Thameslink being shoved through the Woolwich line haphazardly that it’s a tediously slow service, otherwise this would absolutely be a fast service which in the era of TfL connections at Abbey Wood and Woolwich is needed

Mattplans · 11 Jun 2026

wls1 said:
Semi fast services do still exist on the Sidcup line: 4 services in the AM fast from New Eltham to London Bridge, (two starting at Crayford and two at Strood) and one evening peak return from Charing X - Gillingham fast to New Eltham and one Charing X - Dartford via Lewisham skipping Lee/Mottingham, these are very well used services.

Mattplans said:
Similarly, there are no time savings on services that skip Lewisham. It is only done to avoid congesting the area. The same applies for the couple of services that run via Sidcup that miss Lee, it's done to avoid congestion and overcrowding. It's hardly evidence of "a mix of inner suburban metro services and semi fast outer surburban services".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2026 ==

There are no time savings on 1N94 1751 London Charing Cross to Gillingham (Kent) compared to 2N14 1736 London Charing Cross to Dartford*. The 'popularity' of these services is due to the time of day. They would be as well, if not more, patronised if they stopped at every station. The issue is you'd have commuters squished up against the windows!

Unless you consider the 2 minutes earlier that 1n94 arrives at Dartford to be a time saving*; which it is not, and immaterial to the average commuter. There are only a handful of services that miss a few stations with no time savings over a normal service that have been characterised as "semi fast" by this forum. It's done due to line capacity and other aforementioned reasons. Note that in previous timetables every other service skipped Albany Park. It would've been ridiculous to have called this a semi fast service.

Note that the following service to Dartford after the aforementioned Gillingham run (2M54 1755 London Charing Cross to Dartford) takes the same amount of time as this supposed 'semifast' service.

There is no semifast or fast offering on any service between London and Dartford because they all take the same amount of time anyway. It's a bit like saying 2M95 1807 London Cannon Street to Rochester (which is one of the busiest services via Bexleyheath) in the evening peak is "semifast" and "well used" just because it misses St Johns. It's immaterial. It's busy because of the time of day, and it misses St Johns because there's a fast mainline service 2 mins behind it, and incidentally both this, and the Gillingham service call at London Bridge in a similar timeframe if there was any further doubt as to why they are so well used

brad465 · 11 Jun 2026

Mattplans said:
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2026 ==

There are no time savings on 1N94 1751 London Charing Cross to Gillingham (Kent) compared to 2N14 1736 London Charing Cross to Dartford*. The 'popularity' of these services is due to the time of day. They would be as well patronised if they stopped at every station, probably more.

Unless you consider the 2 minutes earlier that 1n94 arrives at Dartford to be a time saving*; which it is not, and immaterial to the average commuter. There are only a handful of services that miss a few stations with no time savings over a normal service that have been characterised as "semi fast" by this forum. It's done due to line capacity and other aforementioned reasons. Note that in previous timetables every other service skipped Albany Park. It would've been ridiculous to have called this a semi fast service.

Note that the following service to Dartford after the aforementioned Gillingham run (2M54 1755 London Charing Cross to Dartford) takes the same amount of time as this supposed 'semifast' service.

There is no semifast or fast offering on any service between London and Dartford because they all take the same amount of time anyway. It's a bit like saying 2M95 1807 London Cannon Street to Rochester (which is one of the busiest services via Bexleyheath) in the evening peak is "semifast" and "well used" just because it misses St Johns. It's immaterial. It's busy because of the time of day, and incidentally both these services call at London Bridge in a similar timeframe if there was any further doubt as to why they are so well used

Yes the main purpose of these services is not a faster journey time, it's redistributing passenger loadings to avoid overcrowding. I would like to see some sort of semi-fast service on the Sidcup and Woolwich lines, however their main purposes are to influence what passengers use which services, with any time saving a bonus. This is the same reason some Hastings' peak services skip Tonbridge and Sevenoaks (although post-2022 they now provide Chelsfield's peak flow).

NCT · 11 Jun 2026

cle said:
The issue here is the loopers - unless we have the same 4 (Blackheath - Greenwich) - without service to Dartford. And that comes from a reinstatement of the 'semi-fast' to Rainham via Blackheath and Woolwich. Stopping pattern, I'm less worried about - but should be faster from Dartford.

The Sidcup line should have a looper too - I also think 8tph is too much for Sidcup vs the others. Ideally all would be 6tph.

Bexleyheath would have 10tph peak. Woolwich would have 8 (6 via Greenwich and 2 via Blackheath)

Yes of all 3 Dartford lines Sidcup is the one with the lowest density and development potential. This is why I'm proposing running the Victorias, which are restricted to 8-car trains, to Sidcup. Off-peak these services could terminate at Sidcup itself. Albany Park, Bexley and Crayford could get away with just the 4tph.

As for rounders, I think the priority should be maximising the frequency of Northfleet/Dartford - Abbey Wood connection for Crossrail. The remaining services can form rounders or go to Dartford informed by operational practicality.

NorthKent1989 · 12 Jun 2026

Mattplans said:
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2026 ==

There are no time savings on 1N94 1751 London Charing Cross to Gillingham (Kent) compared to 2N14 1736 London Charing Cross to Dartford*. The 'popularity' of these services is due to the time of day. They would be as well, if not more, patronised if they stopped at every station. The issue is you'd have commuters squished up against the windows!

Unless you consider the 2 minutes earlier that 1n94 arrives at Dartford to be a time saving*; which it is not, and immaterial to the average commuter. There are only a handful of services that miss a few stations with no time savings over a normal service that have been characterised as "semi fast" by this forum. It's done due to line capacity and other aforementioned reasons. Note that in previous timetables every other service skipped Albany Park. It would've been ridiculous to have called this a semi fast service.

Note that the following service to Dartford after the aforementioned Gillingham run (2M54 1755 London Charing Cross to Dartford) takes the same amount of time as this supposed 'semifast' service.

There is no semifast or fast offering on any service between London and Dartford because they all take the same amount of time anyway. It's a bit like saying 2M95 1807 London Cannon Street to Rochester (which is one of the busiest services via Bexleyheath) in the evening peak is "semifast" and "well used" just because it misses St Johns. It's immaterial. It's busy because of the time of day, and it misses St Johns because there's a fast mainline service 2 mins behind it, and incidentally both this, and the Gillingham service call at London Bridge in a similar timeframe if there was any further doubt as to why they are so well used

This is a bit pedantic, the purpose of the old semi fast in its later years was simply to get Medway to key locations on the route and to TfL interchanges at Woolwich, Greenwich & Lewisham faster, not necessarily to get to London faster, as you’ve mentioned The Docklands opened up by then, for a fast service to London you had the Bromley route to Victoria, having once lived in Medway the locals made this distinction clear

All this was before HS1, but such a service is still needed as now you have the EL at Abbey Wood, and frankly a scatty 1-2tph unreliable Thameslink service doesn’t cut the mustard.

Also looking at the old timetables the Greenwich line was pretty much CST only from 2009 the CHX top up came from the Gillinghams which inwards from Dartford called only at Abbey Wood, Woolwich Arsenal and Charlton then Blackheath and Lewisham but taking the last two stations aside you basically had a situation similar to the LTS/District/H&C, the London-Aylesbury/Metropolitan and now The Greater Anglia/Elizabeth line corridors, an all stops metro with a outer suburban semi fast top up that connects commuters to key interchanges

brad465 · 16 Jun 2026

NCT said:
Bexleyheath would have 10tph peak. Woolwich would have 8 (6 via Greenwich and 2 via Blackheath)

Yes of all 3 Dartford lines Sidcup is the one with the lowest density and development potential. This is why I'm proposing running the Victorias, which are restricted to 8-car trains, to Sidcup. Off-peak these services could terminate at Sidcup itself. Albany Park, Bexley and Crayford could get away with just the 4tph.

As for rounders, I think the priority should be maximising the frequency of Northfleet/Dartford - Abbey Wood connection for Crossrail. The remaining services can form rounders or go to Dartford informed by operational practicality.

Having Sidcup as a turnback point all day is not viable. The train has to turnback in the siding, so a permanent staff presence to close down the services will be required, which costs money and platform time. Furthermore, due to TPWS positioning, a train is not allowed into Sidcup station while a train is leaving the siding, even though this does not physically enter the signal block P2 is in. This will slow down at least some of the other 4tph due to pass through the station, as well as any freight, which is not ideal on a metro timetable (Or any timetable for that matter).

louis97 · 16 Jun 2026

brad465 said:
Furthermore, due to TPWS positioning, a train is not allowed into Sidcup station while a train is leaving the siding, even though this does not physically enter the signal block P2 is in.

It will be because the points fall within the overlap beyond the signal on platform 2, nothing to do with TPWS positioning.

Mattplans · 16 Jun 2026

Not sure why but it certainly doesn’t let me do it in Simsig :lol:

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wls1 said:
Lots of changes across SE with lots of services back running off peak and all day Saturdays and improved Sunday services

(Mon-Sat) all day Sidcup-Greenwich rounders and (+Sun) Bexleyheath line - Charing Cross

Sunday services including Woolwich line - Lewisham back 2tph

Copied this from the main thread for those not checking that one

Also, the service to/from Charing Cross via Bexleyheath will be a rounder.

Originates at Charing Cross on the Bexleyheath end and Cannon St on Greenwich end. Links to/from Elizabeth Line and Greenwich/Bexley boroughs are maintained.

This means the general poor spacing of services on Sundays continues as the service assumes the path from Cannon Street and not the Charing X path (:55/:25) which is better spaced w/ the Victoria service.

Sidcup is a huge winner really, the Cannon St service slots well into what can reasonably be expected for spacing between services on the route.

Victoria via Bexleyheath is also extended to Gravesend on Sundays.

Greenwich will now have 2 tph to Bexleyheath and 2 tph to Sidcup and 2 tph Thameslink (which are also being curtailed to Kentish Tn vice Luton)

43074 said:
Interestingly, Luton to Rainham services are curtailed to Kentish Town during off peak SX and Saturdays, clockwise Sutton loop services are extended to Luton in their place

Trains at Luton on 16/12/2026 | Rail Record

Live Train Times for Luton - Search passenger and freight services at Luton

live.rail-record.co.uk

Interesting to note that GX services between Victoria and Gatwick will be doubled while this is curtailed. It does often seem like ‘service increases’ are more a shuffle around of existing costs.

Krystal · 11 Jul 2026

I’ve just discovered the December TT changes and looked them up on RTT, and here it is off peak summarised:
- 2tph Medways <-> Kentish Town (truncated from Luton)
- 4tph Dartford <-> Charing Cross via Sidcup. 2tph don’t stop at LEW and extend to Gravesend
- 2tph Dartford <-> Charing Cross via Bexleyheath
- 2tph Dartford <-> Cannon Street via Woolwich and Lewisham
- 2tph Cannon St rounder via Greenwich and Sidcup
- 2tph Cannon St rounder via Greenwich and Bexleyheath
- 2tph Victoria <-> Gravesend via Bexleyheath

This means that Woolwich gets a 6tph to LBG plus 2tph on TL, Bexleyheath gets 4tph to LBG plus the Victoria services. Sidcup gets 6tph to LBG.

While the Medway problem is yet to be addressed, this is a great start and I expect it to be welcomed by most people who live on the respective lines.

Southeastern planning to restore pre-Covid frequencies on Dartford lines

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