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Northern Explorer - new ticket?

ainsworth74

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I think snubbing railcards and severe gaps in their network (e.g. York to Newcastle) turn this from a potential useful to a niche TOC vanity product.
Does it? I mean yeah it's not that useful for me here in the North East but whilst we're important we're not the majority of Northern customer base. That would be Manchester, Leeds, Liverpool and Sheffield (honourable mentions to Hull, Preston, Bolton, etc). For people in those areas it represent a £35 ticket that's valid across a huge swathe of the North on the primary operator in those areas. Doesn't feel like a niche product when you look at it from that perspective.

The lack of a railcard discount is a shame but certain tickets have always been excluded from Railcards or certain sorts of railcards (for instance a 16-25 and 26-30 cannot discount a 1st Class ALR, Caledonian Sleeper don't accept the 26-30 Railcard, etc etc). That's quite apart from there being many people who aren't entitled to a Railcard at all so this may well still represent a useful ticket to them compared to paying full price. Especially when factoring in the flexibility it offers.

We'll see how it does, these sorts of ticket are always a bit niche lets be real, most passenger don't buy anything other than a point to point ticket (of some form) or perhaps an area based ticket for their local PTE (like West Yorkshire). But to call it a "niche TOC vanity product" feels extremely harsh.
 
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yorksrob

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I think that sums up my position. It won't encourage me to do more travel by rail. Perhaps it's not intended for me. But given the way many regular tickets give the freedom to stop at intermediate stations so long as they're done in a linear manner it's not an option that I'd consider unless I woke up one day and thought 'I'm just going to ride trains all day without any real plan'.

I guess its attraction is also partly defined by where you live. I'm in Leeds, so that's pretty central to many routes that Northern run, which means that the fares I'm charged are dampened down, for want of a better phrase. If I was in the north or south of the area then the savings mount up a bit more because I'm further away from more of the network. I hope that makes sense :s

I think it also reflects the fact that the whole area in the North is a bit of a mess of different companies. Sure there are incursions into other companies territories, but other providers - Great Western, Greater Anglia, the Southern TOCs, TFW are more geographically based, so don't have such gaps.
 

Cell2025

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Does it? I mean yeah it's not that useful for me here in the North East but whilst we're important we're not the majority of Northern customer base. That would be Manchester, Leeds, Liverpool and Sheffield (honourable mentions to Hull, Preston, Bolton, etc). For people in those areas it represent a £35 ticket that's valid across a huge swathe of the North on the primary operator in those areas. Doesn't feel like a niche product when you look at it from that perspective.

The lack of a railcard discount is a shame but certain tickets have always been excluded from Railcards or certain sorts of railcards (for instance a 16-25 and 26-30 cannot discount a 1st Class ALR, Caledonian Sleeper don't accept the 26-30 Railcard, etc etc). That's quite apart from there being many people who aren't entitled to a Railcard at all so this may well still represent a useful ticket to them compared to paying full price. Especially when factoring in the flexibility it offers.

We'll see how it does, these sorts of ticket are always a bit niche lets be real, most passenger don't buy anything other than a point to point ticket (of some form) or perhaps an area based ticket for their local PTE (like West Yorkshire). But to call it a "niche TOC vanity product" feels extremely harsh.
Interesting take given my post above. I view it the opposite way. Those of us in the centre can go in any direction at relatively reasonable cost, and stop at will on linear routes. It's surely more useful to people who live at the extremes (though I accept that you have the gap between Newcastle and York to worry about).

Surely a Rover is designed to encourage people to get out and about more than they would. I genuinely can't envisage a situation where I'd have spent £53 on Northern tickets for a day's worth of travel, so by derivation I and many others will never buy it.

Perhaps that's what they intend. There must be a rationale behind it.
 

Mal75756

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Living in the East Yorkshire area it takes an age to get to Manchester/lower north west via northern only and therefore realistically cannot go much further on a day ticket. My point for this post was about the take over of GBR which if they do take over all but the open access TOC's then could the northern explorer not add on TransPennine validity just between York and the North East (Darlington etc) for no extra cost as all the revenue for the ticket is going to GBR anyway.
 

The exile

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Interesting take given my post above. I view it the opposite way. Those of us in the centre can go in any direction at relatively reasonable cost, and stop at will on linear routes. It's surely more useful to people who live at the extremes (though I accept that you have the gap between Newcastle and York to worry about).

Surely a Rover is designed to encourage people to get out and about more than they would. I genuinely can't envisage a situation where I'd have spent £53 on Northern tickets for a day's worth of travel, so by derivation I and many others will never buy it.

Perhaps that's what they intend. There must be a rationale behind it.
Even for railcard holders it undercuts some single fares from Leeds. OK - not many!
 

Tetchytyke

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The South West has some interesting and good-value ones, including the Freedom of Devon and Cornwall which isn't far off only including GWR services and which does include railcard discounts.
That's an old geographical rover, though, it is just that GWR run 99% of train services in Cornwall these days.
I think snubbing railcards and severe gaps in their network (e.g. York to Newcastle) turn this from a potential useful to a niche TOC vanity product.
Most people are not entitled to a railcard. RDG's stats about railcard entitlement take into account the Two Together and Family and Friends cards. If I'm travelling with Mrs Tyke or Little Tyke I can use the railcard but, with the best will in the world, neither are particularly up for an aimless day riding on trains.

As for the gaps between York and Newcastle and Oxenholme and Carlisle, that's just the nature of the TOC. It reduces the value of the ticket for people north of those gaps, yes, but not entirely: for example, the only point-to-point ticket from Middlesbrough to Whitehaven is an anytime return at £67 route via Hexham, and even Middlesbrough to Carlisle is £38.70.

The bulk of the value is inevitably going to be where Northern's services are concentrated, though. I've done Bradford-Leeds-Sheffield-Lincoln-Sheffield-Manchester-Bradford on a £10 newspaper pass before, and that sort of trip would still be good value at £35.
 

Cell2025

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Even for railcard holders it undercuts some single fares from Leeds. OK - not many!
I guess that there are some, but remember it has to cost more than £53 non discounted to provide a saving.

And to be honest the most I've ever spent on Northern Trains, stopping to and fro, is about £30 full price. I think that's my problem. It's not going to encourage me to find new places etc because I already do that well within the rover price.

As an example I like going to Clitheroe on the Calder Valley Line, and often stop at one, some, or all of Todmorden, Hebden Bridge and Halifax on the way back. An anytime day return for tomorrow costs me £15.85 after discount. Even at full price it's £23.80. That's a decent long day out.
 

Tetchytyke

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Living in the East Yorkshire area it takes an age to get to Manchester/lower north west via northern only
The difference isn't as bad as it was, it's about 50 minutes slower Hull-Halifax then Halifax-Manchester compared to TPE direct from Hull to Manchester. It's also a lot cheaper.
 

Djgr

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That's an old geographical rover, though, it is just that GWR run 99% of train services in Cornwall these days.

Most people are not entitled to a railcard. RDG's stats about railcard entitlement take into account the Two Together and Family and Friends cards. If I'm travelling with Mrs Tyke or Little Tyke I can use the railcard but, with the best will in the world, neither are particularly up for an aimless day riding on trains.

As for the gaps between York and Newcastle and Oxenholme and Carlisle, that's just the nature of the TOC. It reduces the value of the ticket for people north of those gaps, yes, but not entirely: for example, the only point-to-point ticket from Middlesbrough to Whitehaven is an anytime return at £67 route via Hexham, and even Middlesbrough to Carlisle is £38.70.

The bulk of the value is inevitably going to be where Northern's services are concentrated, though. I've done Bradford-Leeds-Sheffield-Lincoln-Sheffield-Manchester-Bradford on a £10 newspaper pass before, and that sort of trip would still be good value at £35.
Indeed. You can save money if you like doing the kind of journeys that people on this forum like to do.

But this is a tiny niche.

And they can probably work out a way of doing it cheaper anyway!
 

Iskra

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Newcastle to Leeds via Carlisle is exactly the type of journey I was thinking about. You wouldn't have much time to do anything anywhere. It would be travelling for its own sake, which I accept some people like to do, but I don't think that's the target audience.

The £35 is not too bad at all in itself. The question is how much utility it provides to a railcard holder given that many tickets allow you to board and alight at intermediate stations at will. If that freedom was not available then certainly the rover would provide significant added value, but you can, so it doesn't.
…but if you stopped at Skipton instead, you’d gain an extra 2 hours there in a pleasant town, and still have the scenic train ride.

There is value to be had here, with the right research and a positive mindset.
 

wilbers

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As for the gaps between York and Newcastle and Oxenholme and Carlisle, that's just the nature of the TOC. It reduces the value of the ticket for people north of those gaps, yes, but not entirely: for example, the only point-to-point ticket from Middlesbrough to Whitehaven is an anytime return at £67 route via Hexham, and even Middlesbrough to Carlisle is £38.70.

Mind the gap! while it reduces the value for those north of the gaps, its harder to use starting IN the gap. I do have the option of going from Langwathby as well as Penrith, though its less than £35 return to Leeds anyway, and I've only ever once gone beyond Leeds or Bradford starting from Langwathby - takes long enough to get that far.
 

Djgr

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Mind the gap! while it reduces the value for those north of the gaps, its harder to use starting IN the gap. I do have the option of going from Langwathby as well as Penrith, though its less than £35 return to Leeds anyway, and I've only ever once gone beyond Leeds or Bradford starting from Langwathby - takes long enough to get that far.
The gap also reduces the value for those south of the gap!
 

Iskra

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But how much would you be willing pay to bridge the gap? Even a minor price rise might lose you as many overall ticket sales as you would gain. And the gaps aren’t relevant for everyone.
 

Cell2025

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…but if you stopped at Skipton instead, you’d gain an extra 2 hours there in a pleasant town, and still have the scenic train ride.

There is value to be had here, with the right research and a positive mindset.
I'm coming from the perspective of doing a lot of planning, if you see my reference to Leeds>Clitheroe>Todmorden>Hebden Bridge>Halifax>Leeds in a post above.

I also do Leeds>Skipton>Keighley>Bingley>Saltaire>Shipley>Leeds a fair bit as well.

Those who know, know, but I do like travelling around to real ale/craft beer pubs.

And despite all that I can't make the rover remotely work! I suppose I ought to be grateful that Northern fares are relatively reasonable so long as they allow linear stops along the route.

So I plan, and certainly have a positive mindset. I love travelling, but not to sit on 195s for an eternity without the destination/s having something to offer. Cheers for the advice though.
 

ChrisC

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Living in the East Yorkshire area it takes an age to get to Manchester/lower north west via northern only and therefore realistically cannot go much further on a day ticket. My point for this post was about the take over of GBR which if they do take over all but the open access TOC's then could the northern explorer not add on TransPennine validity just between York and the North East (Darlington etc) for no extra cost as all the revenue for the ticket is going to GBR anyway.
I can’t see it ever becoming valid between York and the North East due to the extortionate prices charged by LNER on that stretch of line. The fact that the Northern Explorer is valid all day and an Anytime Single between just York and Darlington is £29. The price of £35 even undercuts the price of a return from York to Darlington using Off Peak Singles.

I recently stayed a few days in Darlington and travelled up from Alfreton in Derbyshire. I saved a few pounds by splitting tickets at York but even then the price of the ticket for the 30 minute journey between York and Darlington was almost the same price as the main part of my journey from Alfreton to York.
 

Cell2025

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I can’t see it ever becoming valid between York and the North East due to the extortionate prices charged by LNER on that stretch of line. The fact that the Northern Explorer is valid all day and an Anytime Single between just York and Darlington is £29. The price of £35 even undercuts the price of a return from York to Darlington using Off Peak Singles.

I recently stayed a few days in Darlington and travelled up from Alfreton in Derbyshire. I saved a few pounds by splitting tickets at York but even then the price of the ticket for the 30 minute journey between York and Darlington was almost the same price as the main part of my journey from Alfreton to York.
It does go to prove what good value a seven day rover for the NorthEast is. £22 a day for travel on all routes apart from the open access trains. For a railcard holder it's just under £15. Even better it gets you across to Carlisle and allows use of Settle to Carlisle route.

I might actually do that. £101 seems almost too good to be true as a senior traveller.
 

The exile

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I guess that there are some, but remember it has to cost more than £53 non discounted to provide a saving.

And to be honest the most I've ever spent on Northern Trains, stopping to and fro, is about £30 full price. I think that's my problem. It's not going to encourage me to find new places etc because I already do that well within the rover price.

As an example I like going to Clitheroe on the Calder Valley Line, and often stop at one, some, or all of Todmorden, Hebden Bridge and Halifax on the way back. An anytime day return for tomorrow costs me £15.85 after discount. Even at full price it's £23.80. That's a decent long day out.
Sheffield - Hexham is over £70 single- OK it’s hardly a massive flow, but a rover undercutting a single shows it can’t be that much of a rip-off.
 

Iskra

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Sheffield - Hexham is over £70 single- OK it’s hardly a massive flow, but a rover undercutting a single shows it can’t be that much of a rip-off.
And you could start back from Nottingham or Lincoln and presumably get even better value…
 

Djgr

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And you could start back from Nottingham or Lincoln and presumably get even better value…
Except you would probably get advances and split to get price below that of the Northern Explorer
 

HOMELESS

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I'm coming from the perspective of doing a lot of planning, if you see my reference to Leeds>Clitheroe>Todmorden>Hebden Bridge>Halifax>Leeds in a post above.

I also do Leeds>Skipton>Keighley>Bingley>Saltaire>Shipley>Leeds a fair bit as well.

Those who know, know, but I do like travelling around to real ale/craft beer pubs.

And despite all that I can't make the rover remotely work! I suppose I ought to be grateful that Northern fares are relatively reasonable so long as they allow linear stops along the route.

So I plan, and certainly have a positive mindset. I love travelling, but not to sit on 195s for an eternity without the destination/s having something to offer. Cheers for the advice though.
Apart from Clitheroe a Day Rover from WYPTE would be far cheaper but only valid off peak.
 

Iskra

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Except you would probably get advances and split to get price below that of the Northern Explorer
When I just looked at prices with Trainsplit for Monday 29th of June, and a random Wednesday in August the best price I could find was £66. If you can beat £35 return I would be amazed. And of course, advances aren’t flexible whereas the Northern Explorer is fully flexible.
 

Cell2025

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Apart from Clitheroe a Day Rover from WYPTE would be far cheaper but only valid off peak.
A Day Rover isn't valid in Skipton is it? It's in N Yorks and is 'Zone 7' for which you can buy weekly, monthly, quarterly or annual passes, but not day tickets.

And you say 'apart from Clitheroe' but Clitheroe isn't on the Skipton leg in the first place. Completely different lines.
 

Deerfold

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A Day Rover isn't valid in Skipton is it? It's in N Yorks and is 'Zone 7' for which you can buy weekly, monthly, quarterly or annual passes, but not day tickets.

And you say 'apart from Clitheroe' but Clitheroe isn't on the Skipton leg in the first place. Completely different lines.
You talked about two different itineraries. One involving Clitheroe and one involving Skipton.
 

Kite159

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Sheffield - Hexham is over £70 single- OK it’s hardly a massive flow, but a rover undercutting a single shows it can’t be that much of a rip-off.
However I would imagine most people wanting to travel to Hexham from Sheffield will be wanting to use XC to Newcastle, rather than sticking with Northern (Sheffield - Leeds - Carlisle - Hexham).

And it won't be the first time a day ranger product undercuts a point to point fare
 

Tetchytyke

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Indeed. You can save money if you like doing the kind of journeys that people on this forum like to do.

But this is a tiny niche.
It is only ever going to be a niche product, but that’s not the same as it being a TOC vanity product. Most rovers and rangers are niche products, really.

I can think of journeys I’d do where I would gladly pay an extra couple of quid to have a rover ticket rather than a straight out-and-back for the reason that it gives you more flexibility to change your mind. Of course the rover isn’t going to undercut a lot of fares, certainly not the ones Northern set, but there are quite a lot where the rover is only a pound or so more expensive.
 

Cell2025

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You talked about two different itineraries. One involving Clitheroe and one involving Skipton.
To be fair I think that my point has been lost for reasons of semantics. Basically I can have a jolly good day out taking multiple trains and visiting multiple places for a third of the price of an Explorer. I was accused of not doing research and having a positive outlook. I posted two routes which showed that I very much do have both. The plan seems to have been to somehow pick apart those routes for reasons I can't fathom.

I'm done:smile:
 

The exile

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To be fair I think that my point has been lost for reasons of semantics. Basically I can have a jolly good day out taking multiple trains and visiting multiple places for a third of the price of an Explorer. I was accused of not doing research and having a positive outlook. I posted two routes which showed that I very much do have both. The plan seems to have been to somehow pick apart those routes for reasons I can't fathom.

I'm done:smile:
Of course you can have a jolly good day out for less - just as someone from Brighton can have a jolly good day out in Chichester for a lot less than the price of a Southern Day Save Ticket or someone staying in Ashford can have three day trips for a lot less than the Kent Rover. This brings a lot of places further afield within that range without the need to do vast quantities of ticket price research and with the ability to react on the day without being committed to stay at Ribblehead (for example) for the next 5 hours despite the fact that it's chucking it down with rain and your waterproof has sprung a leak. Each to his / her own, however - and if people's idea of a good day out isn't covered by this ticket they don't have to buy it.
 

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