Cancellations on Blackpool South line on Sundays

Hugo3000 · 15 Jun 2026

Killingworth said:
I have worked in a Contact Centre. The skills needed there for the majority of workers, possibly all of them, are well below those needed to safely operate trains. However the staffing terms and conditions bear consideration. I recall we had teams working unsocial hours only, some who actually preferred working on Sundays. I did all I could to avoid early mornings but was happy to work Friday late nights. I've spoken to Northern Sunday conductors and know they quite like working them - but that's largely because they pay well.

They don't pay well for Sundays - that's the major reason so many people refuse to give up their day off!

TUC said:
Very strange how most other businesses have managed to make such changes without raising prices. No, neither customers nor taxpayers should pay more. The rail industry just has to deliver what it promises to deliver. Very, very minimal expectation, and its time the public made the rail industry feel that.

Unfortunately a lot other workforces are pushovers - rail workers have fought hard for their t&c's and won't give them up easily. So, no matter how much it upsets you, the only resolution involves money being spent enticing conductors to come in on their day off or by bringing Sundays inside the working week (which seems unlikely to happen with the current offer judging by the mess room chatter).

RailUK Forums

GordonT · 15 Jun 2026

TUC said:
Very strange how most other businesses have managed to make such changes without raising prices. No, neither customers nor taxpayers should pay more. The rail industry just has to deliver what it promises to deliver. Very, very minimal expectation, and its time the public made the rail industry feel that.

Surely some TOCs must have bitten this particular bullet as it is just certain ones where Sunday coverage is voluntary? Were any of them financial basket cases or were they fairly rich TOCs?

TUC · 15 Jun 2026

Hugo3000 said:
Unfortunately a lot other workforces are pushovers - rail workers have fought hard for their t&c's and won't give them up easily. So, no matter how much it upsets you, the only resolution involves money being spent enticing conductors to come in on their day off or by bringing Sundays inside the working week (which seems unlikely to happen with the current offer judging by the mess room chatter).

Or recruiting a set of part-time/flexible workers. Yes, there would still be the training costs, but the benefits they would bring would be money well spent.

dk1 · 15 Jun 2026

TUC said:
Or recruiting a set of part-time/flexible workers. Yes, there would still be the training costs, but the benefits they would bring would be money well spent.

Good luck with getting that past the RMT/ASLEF.

Horizon22 · 15 Jun 2026

GordonT said:
Surely some TOCs must have bitten this particular bullet as it is just certain ones where Sunday coverage is voluntary? Were any of them financial basket cases or were they fairly rich TOCs?

Many were done decades ago - during the 2000s when rail was performing very well or even earlier - or the old staff on different contracts have since retired.

Reportedly some of GA is moving Sunday into the working week in part of the pay negotations, so it can happen.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2026 ==

TUC said:
Or recruiting a set of part-time/flexible workers. Yes, there would still be the training costs, but the benefits they would bring would be money well spent.

It would be deeply inefficient. Some specific flexible part-time workers have a place yes, but you're talking double the uniform, IT costs etc.

dk1 · 15 Jun 2026

Horizon22 said:
Many were done decades ago - during the 2000s when rail was performing very well or even earlier - or the old staff on different contracts have since retired.

Reportedly some of GA is moving Sunday into the working week in part of the pay negotations, so it can happen.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2026 ==

It would be deeply inefficient. Some specific flexible part-time workers have a place yes, but you're talking double the uniform, IT costs etc.

GA drivers have been offered a gradual Sunday in the working week for a 19% pay increase over two years. Ironically they have no problem in covering Sunday turns with few or no cancellations any weekend.

Geeves · 15 Jun 2026

The money is there and the powers that be want a deal.

The vote closes on Friday!

Let's see what happens.

andrewguk · 16 Jun 2026

davehsug said:
Stoke to Manchester hasn't had a Northern Sunday service for over a year, leaving every intermediate station except Macclesfield, with no service at all.

I'm led to believe it's been longer than that according to a Northern conductor I was speaking to last week.

TUC · 16 Jun 2026

dk1 said:
Good luck with getting that past the RMT/ASLEF.

It would be entirely reasonable to say ' you correctly say that Sundays are not part of the working week. We get that and respect that. Therefore, we'll make other arrangements to cover those days which don't involve existing staff'.

Shaw S Hunter · 16 Jun 2026

TUC said:
It would be entirely reasonable to say ' you correctly say that Sundays are not part of the working week. We get that and respect that. Therefore, we'll make other arrangements to cover those days which don't involve existing staff'.

If it was really that simple do you not think it would have already been done? And yet it hasn't. I wonder why...

dk1 · 16 Jun 2026

Shaw S Hunter said:
If it was really that simple do you not think it would have already been done? And yet it hasn't. I wonder why...

Beat me to it.

Bletchleyite · 16 Jun 2026

I guess "all new staff must work every Sunday" might be seen as religious discrimination?

pr1 · 16 Jun 2026

Bletchleyite said:
I guess "all new staff must work every Sunday" might be seen as religious discrimination?

I'm no legal expert, I'll set that out from the start. I've done some quick Google searching and found this:

Employers requiring employees to work on days that are important to them because of their religion or beliefs should ensure they have good reasons for the requirement, sufficient to make it a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

Case ref: MBA v London Borough of Merton [2013] EWCA Civ 1562

From source: https://www.tollers.co.uk/requirement-for-christian-employee-to-work-on-sunday-not-discrimination/

Obviously the railways, discussed in some detail on this thread, have a long history of unions and governments working/clashing/working/clashing again and a patchwork of regulations underpin employment on the railways. Maybe the case quoted above doesn't apply to the railways and I'll be happy to learn.

TUC · 17 Jun 2026

dk1 said:
Good luck with getting that past the RMT/ASLEF.

They can't have both ways though, to correctly says that Sunday working is voluntary, but also then object to other staff being recruited to cover them.

Ju135 · 17 Jun 2026

TUC said:
They can't have both ways though, to correctly says that Sunday working is voluntary, but also then object to other staff being recruited to cover them.

Question is who will train those "flexible staff".
Staff are trained on basics by a trainer (0900-1700 Mon-Fri) at HQ of the TOC, but shadow an actual conductor to learn the role every other day of week including antisocial times . The trainer ALWAYS says "I'll teach you the role but you'll learn the actual job when you shadow an experienced member of staff". There is no work around this.
This is the reason why there were numerous safety incidents during the 2 year strike as office based staff were forced (due to their contracts) to work as contingency conductors but have never shadowed a real conductor. Not to say that experienced conductors don't make mistakes, but there's a much longer period between the time being out and safety incidents compared to the contingency staff. No coincidence.
If the DfT make an exceptional offer, Sunday service will improve and so will revenue.

The exile · 17 Jun 2026

Bletchleyite said:
I guess "all new staff must work every Sunday" might be seen as religious discrimination?

Are current staff of other religious persuasions exempt from working Fridays or Saturdays? (Genuine question)

dk1 · 17 Jun 2026

TUC said:
They can't have both ways though, to correctly says that Sunday working is voluntary, but also then object to other staff being recruited to cover them.

That would be tantamount to zero hours contracts and the railway proper does not entertain such working practices.

Traincrew depots operate to strict staff establishments for example at my home depot it was 139 drivers. Management must recruit and do everything possible to fill all vacancies to maintain that exact level and must not go over it. A couple of years ago lots of driver training had taken place and not the expected level of drivers didn’t either retire or transfer. We ended up with 5 surplus drivers for many months and it was extremely strict on how they could be used. All booking out agreements had to be adhered to meaning those additional drivers sat spare and could only be used in an emergency situation once the established 139 had been offered Rest Day working and/or overtime. In the end the only work they picked up was cutting other drivers out of the last bits of their diagram so they could have an early finish.

Watershed · 17 Jun 2026

dk1 said:
Traincrew depots operate to strict staff establishments for example at my home depot it was 139 drivers. Management must recruit and do everything possible to fill all vacancies to maintain that exact level and must not go over it. A couple of years ago lots of driver training had taken place and not the expected level of drivers didn’t either retire or transfer. We ended up with 5 surplus drivers for many months and it was extremely strict on how they could be used. All booking out agreements had to be adhered to meaning those additional drivers sat spare and could only be used in an emergency situation once the established 139 had been offered Rest Day working and/or overtime. In the end the only work they picked up was cutting other drivers out of the last bits of their diagram so they could have an early finish.

As long as the railway lets itself be run by the unions, rather than consulting with the unions but management actually running the company, these kinds of Spanish practices will continue.

dk1 · 17 Jun 2026

Watershed said:
As long as the railway lets itself be run by the unions, rather than consulting with the unions but management actually running the company, these kinds of Spanish practices will continue.

With over 40 years of railway employment it’s all just very normal to me. Can‘t see much changing any time soon.

Watershed · 17 Jun 2026

dk1 said:
With over 40 years of railway employment it’s all just very normal to me. Can‘t see much changing any time soon.

I’m sure it’s lovely for those can make use of it, and I agree that there seems to be no appetite to ensure proper value for money on the railways. The industry seems to be rudderless and in the worst of all worlds, getting pushed around by both the Treasury/DfT and the unions. Meanwhile passengers and taxpayers suffer the consequences.

Kilopylae · 17 Jun 2026

Tetchytyke said:
Talk about the nuclear option.

The real nuclear option (which I by no means endorse) would be for the Government to pass primary legislation moving Sundays into the working week as part of GBR. Parliament can provide that a contractual term is no longer effective, changing the terms of employment without union/worker agreement or compensation.

This sort of thing isn't unheard of in the public sector.

dk1 · 17 Jun 2026

Kilopylae said:
The real nuclear option (which I by no means endorse) would be for the Government to pass primary legislation moving Sundays into the working week as part of GBR. Parliament can provide that a contractual term is no longer effective, changing the terms of employment without union/worker agreement or compensation.

This sort of thing isn't unheard of in the public sector.

I don’t recall that option being pursued during the previous stint in the public sector.

Kilopylae · 17 Jun 2026

dk1 said:
I don’t recall that option being pursued during the previous stint in the public sector.

I should clarify - I meant in the public sector outside the railways.

MicroLithium · 17 Jun 2026

Kilopylae said:
I should clarify - I meant in the public sector outside the railways.

I’d be interested to know for what part of the public sector primary legislation has been used for this purpose?

Kilopylae · 17 Jun 2026

MicroLithium said:
I’d be interested to know for what part of the public sector primary legislation has been used for this purpose?

I'm not an administrative lawyer so forgive me if I've muddled the details, but in 2012, police officers lost the right to a minimum four hours' pay for a recall to duty. This applied to serving officers, not only to new hires going forwards. I think this would be an example of the kind of thing I mean.

MicroLithium · 17 Jun 2026

Kilopylae said:
I'm not an administrative lawyer so forgive me if I've muddled the details, but in 2012, police officers lost the right to a minimum four hours' pay for a recall to duty. This applied to serving officers, not only to new hires going forwards. I think this would be an example of the kind of thing I mean.

Interesting. That seems like it would have been handled by a statutory instrument under the Police Regulations rather than an Act though. A bit different to reaching into a private employment contract and changing the terms

dk1 · 17 Jun 2026

Kilopylae said:
I'm not an administrative lawyer so forgive me if I've muddled the details, but in 2012, police officers lost the right to a minimum four hours' pay for a recall to duty. This applied to serving officers, not only to new hires going forwards. I think this would be an example of the kind of thing I mean.

Are most police officers in a decent union? I have trained several to become train drivers and they seem so agreeable to give in to anything until the bed in to the railway world. It seems a soulless career path considering how they are treated with very average pay and limited progression.

Y Ddraig Coch · 17 Jun 2026

Bring back Maggie? She would make this a very lively debate.

Kilopylae · 17 Jun 2026

dk1 said:
Are most police officers in a decent union?

I think they're banned from joining conventional trade unions, but they have the Police Federation, which is a de facto union. No idea how effective it is.

dk1 · 17 Jun 2026

Y Ddraig Coch said:
Bring back Maggie? She would make this a very lively debate.

I’m not so sure about that one.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2026 ==

Kilopylae said:
I think they're banned from joining conventional trade unions, but they have the Police Federation, which is a de facto union. No idea how effective it is.

No wonder they are clambering to join us

Cancellations on Blackpool South line on Sundays

Member

RailUK Forums

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Member

Veteran Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Member

Veteran Member