Do Northern passengers pay a two TOC premium

Bletchleyite said:

Would you approve of them existing on London Underground?

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How about asking if you'd prefer they existed and the prices that exist now do, or they were removed any everyone had to pay the walkup price? I think we all know that is the realistic options in the current climate.

For me the problem with the OP's original comparion is using London - Brighton fares. In my view these are a massive outlier even in the south east and I would love it if similarly cheap fares existed in my part of the world (well, some do, to some destinations, but they cannot be used for a full day out).

Equivalent length journeys on Chiltern and SWR may be cheaper than Leeds - Manchester if using a Network Card discount, but the difference is not dramatic, and the undiscounted price can be considerably more expensive.

Examples:

Chiltern: Haddenham & Thame Parkway - Marylebone
Off peak day return: £34.00

SWR: Haslemere - Waterloo
Off peak day return: £37.40

The real inequity, which was indefensible from the start, was creating a Network Railcard without equivalent products for the rest of the country.

TUC said:

The real inequity, which was indefensible from the start, was creating a Network Railcard without equivalent products for the rest of the country.

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The Network Card was primarily created to encourage leisure travel, as trains in the South East were extremely quiet outside of peak times.

That presumably wasn't seen as an issue elsewhere on the network, hence why it wasn't replicated elsewhere.

CyrusWuff said:

as trains in the South East were extremely quiet outside of peak times.

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Particularly in comparison to the number of seats that had to be provided at peak times.

FenMan said:

For me the problem with the OP's original comparion is using London - Brighton fares. In my view these are a massive outlier even in the south east and I would love it if similarly cheap fares existed in my part of the world (well, some do, to some destinations, but they cannot be used for a full day out).

Equivalent length journeys on Chiltern and SWR may be cheaper than Leeds - Manchester if using a Network Card discount, but the difference is not dramatic, and the undiscounted price can be considerably more expensive.

Examples:

Chiltern: Haddenham & Thame Parkway - Marylebone
Off peak day return: £34.00

SWR: Haslemere - Waterloo
Off peak day return: £37.40

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But the difference is that everybody can access the Network railcard if they so choose to. Waterloo to Exeter is a very long way, however I can choose that discounted flexible fare (which comes to fifty-something quid return) and I do every year, together with excellent value return fares between Exeter and Cornwall (another geographically based operator) which enable a good value journey without the stress of predicting one's travel times.

There are also groupsave and the route Barnham fares as well.

I think these sorts of innovations should be available across the North, but this would be easier to achieve and have more coverage if there was the one Northern operator with Northern type fares.

I see TPE services as equivalent to the BML with Northern services more equivalent to Coastway.

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TUC said:

The real inequity, which was indefensible from the start, was creating a Network Railcard without equivalent products for the rest of the country.

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CyrusWuff said:

The Network Card was primarily created to encourage leisure travel, as trains in the South East were extremely quiet outside of peak times.

That presumably wasn't seen as an issue elsewhere on the network, hence why it wasn't replicated elsewhere.

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Haywain said:

Particularly in comparison to the number of seats that had to be provided at peak times.

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It's true - there was a commercial imperative to fill trains which led to the Network card, however these were internal industry concerns. They just don't cut the mustard when it comes to the needs of passengers nationally and @TUC is right to point this out.

It's notable that the Network Card is the nearest thing we have to the BahnCard/climate ticket etc that our continental neighbours have.

I often travel on TPE services between York and Middlesbrough which can be quite lightly loaded. Whither the commercial imperative to get these services better utilised ?

Tetchytyke said:

If I travel with Mrs Tyke and/or Little Tyke then the railcard discount is available to me too, which then makes your northern examples cheaper than your southern examples. On top of that, the railcard is proportionally cheaper per person and has fewer restrictions. We can play this game all day but the only way you can make a meaningful comparison is to compare apples with apples.


Yes, and no.

Leeds to Newcastle doesn't have a day return, although you can buy a North East Round Robin for £65.20 and use it as an off-peak day return.

Leeds to Carlisle via Appleby does have a day return but it doesn't have an off-peak return. It has an anytime short return instead, priced at £64.70, which compares with the off-peak return from Leeds to Newcastle at £79. But in exchange for your cheaper fare you're restricted to a slow rural branch line where there are only 6-7 trains per day.

The expensive bit remains York to Newcastle, as we all know. And yes, the walk-up fares charged for that journey are eye-watering, no argument from me on that. Thanks LNER.


Even this ends up being swings and roundabouts.

One thing the south east doesn't really have is rovers. Whereas the north has a very good selection of rangers and rovers.

The Leeds to Manchester off-peak day return at £28.40 may or may not be good value. But the South Pennines Day Ranger at £31.20 is, I think, pretty good value.

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I'm due to travel from Newcastle or Durham to Doncaster in July.

I've seen that if I do the bit as far as York with TPE instead of keeping to the direct LNER train, it proved cheaper. I have even found such a through ticket without having to resort to split ticketing.