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Is Open Access abstractive or does it genuinely plug gaps?

cj_1985

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Nobody can argue that Hull was well served or cared for by BR or GNER. They may be the minority of OA, but Hull Trains actively built a business and a brand around this - are very well established and also added a lot of London journeys which were underserved on the mainline.

I would hate for these to all be absorbed and then we will eventually lose them, GC, Lincoln etc to 5tph Leeds, 5tph Edinburgh - or similar. Being somewhat glib.

But the ECML was massively underserved by BR overall, frequency-wise. Some hours, just 3-4 trains.

Elsewhere I think the value has been proven less. Virgin saturated the WCML and that is now the benchmark - maybe being eroded towards a 2tph future for Brum/Manc (back to 1 for Liv?) - they built Chester out. And now it's basically full. Could frequency changes be so that an extra Edinburgh could be added (now but also for a future HS2 slot?)

GWML is also a good service, but a solid 2tph service to at least Exeter / Newton Abbot would probably cover demand.
I would argue that Hull was well served...
Now I admit, my memory is far from perfect, but IIRC Hull was served by a handful of services by GNER (and i certainly do NOT mean the number run by LNER today. HT was established and proved demand for further services... helped HT move from borrowed 170s, to their own leased 170s, then to their own 125mph capable stock... the 222/1s. Before the move to the 5 carriage 180s to provide even more capacity... and then today... brand new bi mode stock (following the rejection of a finance/funding package agreement to get the line to Hull electrified. GNER, and the subsequent franchise operators) only expanded their offerings to the city once HT established that there was a demand.

I'd hazard a guess it's the same for services going to Sunderland... no matter my opinion of the GC operation, you wouldn't have LNER offering services there now if not for GC proving a need.


For LNER to go in the press, as they have done in the last 2 years, to claim the amount of money they have lost (since the time of GNER) because of OAO... is ridiculous. They, as a branch of the DfT want a monopoly... look at thwir ticket pricing on the EC franchise. If there were no other options to Hull, Sunderland and Edinburgh... they would have free reign to gouge the very passengers they are meant to be providing a service to.
 
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brad465

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I can't really think of any open access operator that has succesfully "built new markets" other than Hull Trains, which is also 20 years or more old a this point.

If there were lots of other gaps in the industry I would think that the open access operations would have appeared by now - so I'm not really sure I buy this argument.

Lumo might bring in a minor amount of new business by abstracting from domestic airlines on the Scotland route - but domestic air is not the major competitor to the rail industry, so I don't think it really matters much.

Competition within the rail industry might be a benefit to the small portion of the population that regularly uses long distance rail - but that isn't the same as saying it is in the public interest. And it is the public that pays for all this.

Personally I'm strongly in favour of vertical integration of the railway industry, and I can't see any way that that is compatible with the likes of open access operators running around.
Sounds like the best OA start-up is a service from London to a city/large conurbation that is not far off of a mainline, but is not very well served by that mainline's existing services. Then the OAO can serve the new market while also tapping into existing markets on the mainline at the stops it's allowed to serve, the latter helping keep the operation going while the new market builds up. Hull and Sunderland clearly fit this description, with HT and GC feeding off Doncaster and York demand especially.
 

Peterthegreat

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I would argue that Hull was well served...
Now I admit, my memory is far from perfect, but IIRC Hull was served by a handful of services by GNER (and i certainly do NOT mean the number run by LNER today. HT was established and proved demand for further services... helped HT move from borrowed 170s, to their own leased 170s, then to their own 125mph capable stock... the 222/1s. Before the move to the 5 carriage 180s to provide even more capacity... and then today... brand new bi mode stock (following the rejection of a finance/funding package agreement to get the line to Hull electrified. GNER, and the subsequent franchise operators) only expanded their offerings to the city once HT established that there was a demand.

I'd hazard a guess it's the same for services going to Sunderland... no matter my opinion of the GC operation, you wouldn't have LNER offering services there now if not for GC proving a need.


For LNER to go in the press, as they have done in the last 2 years, to claim the amount of money they have lost (since the time of GNER) because of OAO... is ridiculous. They, as a branch of the DfT want a monopoly... look at thwir ticket pricing on the EC franchise. If there were no other options to Hull, Sunderland and Edinburgh... they would have free reign to gouge the very passengers they are meant to be providing a service to.
That is incorrect.
Until the mid-70s BR ran a number (around 4 I think) trains between London and Hull.
This was reduced to two morning trains from and two evening trains to Hull by the mid-80s.
This was further reduced to one solitary train before privatisation.
Neither GNER nor any of it's successors ran more than one.
 

squingo44

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High prices on a publicly owned railway arent a bad thing, though, are they? If the trains are full, that just means more money for the railways to reinvest.
 

Russel

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High prices on a publicly owned railway arent a bad thing, though, are they? If the trains are full, that just means more money for the railways to reinvest.

Railways are public transportation, not a premium product, many of our Intercity routes, ECML/GWML are ran by stock where almost every seat base has collapsed and you're sat on a metal bar for hours on end, the standards simply don't match the product.

As for reinvestment, the extra cash generated goes straight to the treasury, not Network Rail to reinvest into the network.
 

Starmill

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High prices on a publicly owned railway arent a bad thing, though, are they? If the trains are full, that just means more money for the railways to reinvest.
It depends if you think the railway's main purpose is to enrich itself, or to serve the requirements of transport in a growing economy...
That is incorrect.
Until the mid-70s BR ran a number (around 4 I think) trains between London and Hull.
This was reduced to two morning trains from and two evening trains to Hull by the mid-80s.
This was further reduced to one solitary train before privatisation.
Neither GNER nor any of it's successors ran more than one.
Indeed, if four trains a day each way had been implemented in the 90s and early 00s, whether at the behest of the Minister or as a franchisee proposal, it's very unlikely that Hull Trains could ever have been set up in the format it took.
no matter my opinion of the GC operation, you wouldn't have LNER offering services there now if not for GC proving a need.
:frown:
 

A S Leib

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I'd hazard a guess it's the same for services going to Sunderland... no matter my opinion of the GC operation, you wouldn't have LNER offering services there now if not for GC proving a need.
You don't have LNER offering services there now, nor since December 2024.
 

35B

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It's difficult to make a counterfactual comparison, but I don't see any reason why LNER couldn't have done a better job serving Hull if left to their own devices.

I'd venture that, as a simple heuristic, any open access operator running service over congested infrastructure is adding more cost to the system than value.
LNER weren’t left to their own devices, though. The original ECML intercity franchise won by GNER had one return trip from Hull to London per day, weekdays only, and no room for growth. HT identified a market opportunity and grew demand, not just from Hull either - the key case study is Howden which had more or less nil traffic for London, and is now well into 6 figures.

And I don’t understand what on earth your “simple heuristic” is that presumes that these operations add cost rather than value. Not least, it presumes that an OA running the same service costs money that a DfT TOC returns, which is simply absurd.
 

Starmill

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Hull Trains were also a large portion of the service between Retford and London for many years. And they then did it again more recently when they added some through service to Cottingham and Beverley.
 

30907

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It may be significant that the two older EC operations serve areas from which IC had to withdraw (for economic/political reasons) in the HST era: Teesside, Selby/Hull, Bradford (plus Harrogate and Cleethorpes where no OA has thought to tread).

Had that not happened, I doubt GC would have got off the ground, and HT would have struggled.

The HT success shows how it can be a benefit: testing the market with a short, slower, lower-quality (but still nice) train and building from there. Much the same as RR did on various routes, such as NW-Anglia in the 80s.
 

JonathanH

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It may be significant that the two older EC operations serve areas from which IC had to withdraw (for economic/political reasons) in the HST era: Teesside, Selby/Hull, Bradford (plus Harrogate and Cleethorpes where no OA has thought to tread).
True, but by the time IC withdrew, the services had reduced to just the 'business' trains. The philosophy of British Rail had been to provide Regional Railways connections using 158s out of the trunk routes using HSTs / 225s.

The GNER and Regional Railways North East operations continued this. Hull Trains linked them together, which was not on the agenda as part of the bidding process for either franchise. It is interesting to consider whether a more growth led agenda for the railway could have conceived through running again. Hull Trains simply accelerated that. However, as others have stated, it should really be for GBR to identify where there are growth (and efficiency) opportunities on an integrated railway.

There isn't really a reason why GBRs ability to create a business case for ideas should be different from another organisation.
 

35B

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True, but by the time IC withdrew, the services had reduced to just the 'business' trains. The philosophy of British Rail had been to provide Regional Railways connections using 158s out of the trunk routes using HSTs / 225s.

The GNER and Regional Railways North East operations continued this. Hull Trains linked them together, which was not on the agenda as part of the bidding process for either franchise. It is interesting to consider whether a more growth led agenda for the railway could have conceived through running again. Hull Trains simply accelerated that. However, as others have stated, it should really be for GBR to identify where there are growth (and efficiency) opportunities on an integrated railway.

There isn't really a reason why GBRs ability to create a business case for ideas should be different from another organisation.
There are two reasons why it will be.

The first is scale. As a very large organisation (and especially a government body), GBR will have to sustain what it does do, and have limited capacity to generate or support new ideas.

The second is that smaller organisations can be highly motivated to create from new, seeing opportunities and pursuing them. That’s what lurks behind the OAOs and even as a First Group business, Lumo will have that.

Consider, for example, how GBRF have grown in comparison to the “old” freight companies.
 

cle

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I would argue that Hull was well served...
Now I admit, my memory is far from perfect, but IIRC Hull was served by a handful of services by GNER (and i certainly do NOT mean the number run by LNER today. HT was established and proved demand for further services... helped HT move from borrowed 170s, to their own leased 170s, then to their own 125mph capable stock... the 222/1s. Before the move to the 5 carriage 180s to provide even more capacity... and then today... brand new bi mode stock (following the rejection of a finance/funding package agreement to get the line to Hull electrified. GNER, and the subsequent franchise operators) only expanded their offerings to the city once HT established that there was a demand.

I'd hazard a guess it's the same for services going to Sunderland... no matter my opinion of the GC operation, you wouldn't have LNER offering services there now if not for GC proving a need.

That is incorrect.
Until the mid-70s BR ran a number (around 4 I think) trains between London and Hull.
This was reduced to two morning trains from and two evening trains to Hull by the mid-80s.
This was further reduced to one solitary train before privatisation.
Neither GNER nor any of it's successors ran more than one.

My recollection was 1 per day also - I don't think before franchisation is super relevant any more. That 1tpd is not well-served by any definition, as the market then confirmed.

But I agree with your point on Sunderland. And think about what will happen without competition. The network will be cut back to Leeds and Edinburgh.

Look at how BA will launch a flight once there is a new entrant/destination - and then close it down once a new competitor is seen off. Much like the Wrexham operator was hobbled. Or Blackpool OAs have been seen off.
 

stevieinselby

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For example, would the netwotk as a whole be better served with Hull having a 9-car hourly LNER service but also calling at Peterborough and Newark or Sunderland with the same but also stopping at Doncaster and a couple of other places south of there?
HT is definitely providing a valuable service, and as a Selby resident I am very happy to see regular services between Hull and London and would love to see them running hourly – but realistically I can't see there being demand for a 9-car train every hour to Hull. In my experience, most trains are a lot quieter between Hull and Doncaster than they are between Doncaster and London. If it wasn't for the reliability problems that it would introduce, having an hourly 5+5 splitting for Hull and either Teesside or maybe Lincoln would probably be the optimal use of capacity. Having the Hull service stop at Peterborough would be helpful in terms of network connectivity, for sure, but I can completely understand why as an OAO they are locked out of that.
None of the discussion addresses the point that OAOs don't just abstract revenue, but they also grow the market for rail too. If you look at rail in isolation, Lumo may abstract from LNER. But if you look at the destinations they serve, and their marketing, the target is air travel - where they are boosting rail at the expense of the airlines.
The OAOs never shut up about this side of the discussion so they don't really need anyone else to make the point for them!
When approving new OAOs, TPTB will consider how much additional patronage they are likely to bring to the railway against how much they will abstract from existing operations. There is no expectation that they will add more passengers to the railways than they draw from other operators – it's taken for granted that they will poach some passengers from other services but as long as that isn't their main rationale and they are bringing in enough new passengers then that's fine. But if they're only bringing in a handful of new passengers and mostly they're just cherry picking existing rail passengers then that's not a worthwhile proposition.
I would argue that Hull was well served...
Now I admit, my memory is far from perfect, but IIRC Hull was served by a handful of services by GNER (and i certainly do NOT mean the number run by LNER today. HT was established and proved demand for further services... helped HT move from borrowed 170s, to their own leased 170s, then to their own 125mph capable stock... the 222/1s. Before the move to the 5 carriage 180s to provide even more capacity... and then today... brand new bi mode stock (following the rejection of a finance/funding package agreement to get the line to Hull electrified. GNER, and the subsequent franchise operators) only expanded their offerings to the city once HT established that there was a demand.
I don't know what things were like further back, but in the 1990s leading up to privatisation there was just one train a day between Hull and London (Monday to Saturday only), and that continued with GNER and all subsequent holders of the ICEC franchise to this day. Hull Trains has been transformational for the region!
 

AlterEgo

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High prices on a publicly owned railway arent a bad thing, though, are they? If the trains are full, that just means more money for the railways to reinvest.
It is bad if you think raikways are a public good.
 

CW2

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The OP posed a pretty binary question i.e. is Open Access primarily abstractive (and thus detrimental to the wider railway network) or does it fulfil a useful function by serving locations overlooked by the main operators?

I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. DfT-driven cost cutting drove the incumbent TOCs to shrink the network size and service frequency. That generated gaps which the Open Access Operators gladly filled.

In an ideal world there would be sufficient funding for GBR to run services to a wider range of destinations, rendering Open Access superfluous. I'm not holding my breath expecting that to occur any time soon
 

Kite159

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LNER would love for those pesky open access operators to disappear, solely so they can increase fares due to the loss of competition.
 

Some guy

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At least with Lumo west coast places like Milton Keynes, Nuneaton have direct Scottish services. Lockerbie, Whifflet, Greenfaulds, Larbert all have direct London services without the need to go Glasgow or Edinburgh to change. Preston is a crew change point so needed to be served
 

IanXC

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On the left, the view is very much that passenger open access should cease at the end of the current track access agreements with operations and staff rolled into GBR via TUPE.

This was clear in Wednesday's debate.
https://hansard.parliament.uk/commo...1360-E0F8-4D80-B4B4-E9EF69FA9B39/RailwaysBill
This amendment was tabled by Rachael Maskell

This contribution was made by Navendu Mishra.

However, the government's response was

Of course if you wanted to be an MP pushing in the same direction as the government (and hence have a chance of success) you'd table an amendment to amend the Not Primarily Abstractive measure. When you think about it, £0.30 for every £1 income is pretty poor. If Open Access is really what it claims to be 50:50 would surely not be unreasonable.

LNER would love for those pesky open access operators to disappear, solely so they can increase fares due to the loss of competition reduce subsidy as per the DfT's instructions.

Corrected that for you.
 

35B

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Corrected that for you.
The original was correct. The failure of the Virgin franchise was because DfT had got greedy, and ECML passengers weren’t willing to be milked in the way they needed to be to meet DfT’s expectations.
 

Snow1964

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The first is scale. As a very large organisation (and especially a government body), GBR will have to sustain what it does do, and have limited capacity to generate or support new ideas.
Fortunately ORR produces station statistics (and of course rail industry has more detailed data that isn't published). But using the handy Tim Jupp summary, not hard to see where growth is (black dots)


So I would argue new ideas is wrong terminology (implies unproven concept), should be seen as new services where data shows increasing demand. Big difference between speculating on a service and adding one where demand is growing

The second is that smaller organisations can be highly motivated to create from new, seeing opportunities and pursuing them. That’s what lurks behind the OAOs and even as a First Group business, Lumo will have that.
Here it is more a case of existing railway using dinosaur mentality, we ran that service 30 years ago, therefore should continue to do so, even if work and leisure patterns have moved on. There are big chunks of network where core timetable is same as 30 or 40 years ago. Tweaked yes, but not really changing any patterns.

Open Access looks for unfilled demand (or being blunt) business the existing railway isn't interested in. Yes will be some bits that duplicate existing services, but if not prepared to serve whole route then existing railway shouldn't moan if it is abstractive.

The OP posed a pretty binary question i.e. is Open Access primarily abstractive (and thus detrimental to the wider railway network) or does it fulfil a useful function by serving locations overlooked by the main operators?
Exactly, the railway cut various routes in 1960s and 1970s, and even if demand is growing (due to housing, work, leisure moving in), and can clearly see on link where it is growing. There are areas where rebuilding services has been overlooked

I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. DfT-driven cost cutting drove the incumbent TOCs to shrink the network size and service frequency. That generated gaps which the Open Access Operators gladly filled.
I would take the view, not been very good at cost cutting, instead gone in for lot of non-standard rolling stock that is hard to redeploy, so continue to over-provide services in areas of decline, and cannot then expand others within overall budget

In an ideal world there would be sufficient funding for GBR to run services to a wider range of destinations, rendering Open Access superfluous. I'm not holding my breath expecting that to occur any time soon
We have all been on trains where carriages are virtually empty (and I am not just talking about counter-peak services that run full in on direction), but where services are pointlessly run for operational simplicity, rather than someone having nouse to find a better alternative at quiet times.

If an open access operator can fill in gaps in demand, with just 3-5 trains a day, have to ask is DfT, GBR (and its interim shadow version), not able to be more creative with what staff, stock and routes that exist. Pare back some little used services, and fill in the gaps.

Oddly, they seem to have realised, some existing services are not really required, as cutting them for a few weeks over the summer. But this seems to be more a temporary idea, than realising maybe don actually need these when alternative trains available. Really it should be a serious evaluation of if can manage without them for few weeks, why not cut them as unneeded to current destinations, and where would we be better running these few trains to instead.
 

squingo44

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And I don’t understand what on earth your “simple heuristic” is that presumes that these operations add cost rather than value. Not least, it presumes that an OA running the same service costs money that a DfT TOC returns, which is simply absurd.
Because it complicates the timetabling and operating of the railway, and reduces capacity compared to a simpler timetable running a smaller set of services more frequently per hour.
 

The Planner

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At least with Lumo west coast places like Milton Keynes, Nuneaton have direct Scottish services. Lockerbie, Whifflet, Greenfaulds, Larbert all have direct London services without the need to go Glasgow or Edinburgh to change. Preston is a crew change point so needed to be served
MK yes, and Nuneaton I sort of buy, but the Scottish towns are pretty tenuous to me.
 

Dr Hoo

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Because it complicates the timetabling and operating of the railway, and reduces capacity compared to a simpler timetable running a smaller set of services more frequently per hour.
I don’t think that complicating timetabling is something that Open Access (which includes freight of course) have a particular responsibility for.
The publicly specified railway is perfectly capable of tying itself in its own knots. Castlefield, Thameslink and the years of wrangling over running yet more LNER and TransPennine services on the ECML whilst trimming back and endlessly deferring ‘essential’ upgrades are obvious examples.
 

Snow1964

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Because it complicates the timetabling and operating of the railway, and reduces capacity compared to a simpler timetable running a smaller set of services more frequently per hour.
A simpler timetable, running frequently is appropriate to metro style services. Should not be assumed to apply to mid distance, or long regional services.

The reason why low cost airlines run services from assortment of places, often with just token number per week is there is a demand that covers the cost. The UK Railway is obsessed with only wanting to serve major cities by direct services, and never running odd services. Almost does it on principle regardless of any potential revenue.

Go back and look at table 51 timetable from 1970s, and were lots of 1 or 2 trains direct to destinations that can now only be reached by changing, a proportion of people don't like uncertainty (or are too infirm) to deal with connections, so exclude them from trains, when choose not to run occasional through trains.

The logical thought ought to be if an open access Operator sees a market from A to B, then why does the national Operator choose not to serve it, but instead runs some almost empty trains
 

The exile

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The reason why low cost airlines run services from assortment of places, often with just token number per week is there is a demand that covers the cost. The UK Railway is obsessed with only wanting to serve major cities by direct services, and never running odd services. Almost does it on principle regardless of any potential revenue.
As rail journey times have reduced more journeys have moved out of the category which the low cost airlines feed on (sufficiently long that you basically write off a day / half a day to do it and aren't over-worried exactly when the service runs) and into the category where the journey is just part of the day and therefore is there isn't a service at a suitable time you'll choose an alternative means of transport. The most obvious examples of the former category of train are the sleepers, but London - Inverness still "ticks the box". The number of through passengers from (to use examples of services that have disappeared) Liverpool to Dover, Blackburn to Paignton, Newcastle to Largs or Bradford to Weymouth - even at the height of summer - doesn't justify the use of resources which are better used on major flows, or the disruption to the pattern of local services which fitting in the "one off" expresses causes. Yes, there are few people who would make those through journeys, but not trainloads as there once were.
 

Dr Hoo

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As rail journey times have reduced more journeys have moved out of the category which the low cost airlines feed on (sufficiently long that you basically write off a day / half a day to do it and aren't over-worried exactly when the service runs) and into the category where the journey is just part of the day and therefore is there isn't a service at a suitable time you'll choose an alternative means of transport. The most obvious examples of the former category of train are the sleepers, but London - Inverness still "ticks the box". The number of through passengers from (to use examples of services that have disappeared) Liverpool to Dover, Blackburn to Paignton, Newcastle to Largs or Bradford to Weymouth - even at the height of summer - doesn't justify the use of resources which are better used on major flows, or the disruption to the pattern of local services which fitting in the "one off" expresses causes. Yes, there are few people who would make those through journeys, but not trainloads as there once were.
I’m not sure that summer Saturdays decades ago, when many of the dated train paths used capacity (and traction and crews) of the preponderant freight traffic much of which only ran during the week, is particularly relevant.
In the other hand, the ‘one-off’ daily through trains were extremely useful for some demographics. My elderly and disabled parents in Birmingham were only able to come and visit me in Central Scotland by using The Clansman for example (over 30 years ago I admit).
 

alistairlees

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LNER introduced additional train services in December 2025. Are these "abstractive" from the rest of LNER? If the additional train services introduced in December 2025 had been introduced by an open access operator, would they then have been considered "abstractive"? Apart from branding / identity, what's the difference?
 

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