London Bus operators and bus makes. Why do certain operators buy certain buses.

Silent · 7 Jun 2026

Growing up in the early 00’s I noticed metroline brought alx400’s in the late 90’s/ early 00’s but then stopped until around 05. Most double deckers were Plaxton President but with different gearbox systems, some b7tl’s and some Dennis chassis I think. They never brought Gemini 1 bus builds. I don’t live in east London but every new stagecoach London double decker I saw was an Alx400. Single deckers were always plaxton pointers for metroline. I have seen photos of stagecoach maybe using alx200.

In the 10’s and late 00’s it seems that metroline brought more variety of bus body types, lots of e400/200’s, wright b5lhs, mcv’s. Stagecoach as well.

I noticed that it seems that now metroline are buying lots of bd11’s but I think Stagecoach London haven’t as I haven’t seen a stagecoach bd11. But metroline have stopped buying many AD enviro buses since the late 10’s.

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MotCO · 7 Jun 2026

There are probably two factors at play here, and each operator has to assess which is more important. Firstly, rom an engineering viewpoint, it makes sense to have a standard fleet. Fewer spare parts are possible for an homogenous fleet, and experience built up maintaining the same engines is very useful. The counter argument is that you may not get such a good price for new orders, if the manufacturer realises that you will continue to buy the same product whatever the price, within reason.

Strangely, there were probably more double deckers on the market than single deckers, and since the Dart was a generally sound product, it found favour in most fleets. For double deckers, you had AD400, Scania Omnicity, Wrights Streetdeck, and Volvos with a variety of bodies. None was head and shoulders above the rest, so it was probably down to price or application - the Scanias had a reputation for being better on longer routes, rather than the start- stop type routes but it didn't stop Stagecoach buying loads for its urban routes.

Silent · 7 Jun 2026

Perhaps the electrification of buses and more integral body chassis builds means some operators have been buying from lots of different manufacturers this decade? Although I notice metroline doesn’t seem to buy AD buses again I’ve noticed they brought lots of bd11’s which is questionable as the predecessor was e400 byd cities which they did but but not so many it seems. But for single decks I know they have brought Volvo, wright, I think some of the single deck variants of byd. Go ahead seem to buy lots of bd11’s but, I don’t live in south, but from videos know they kind of seemed to standardised their ev bus fleet with ad byd buses. Maybe, thinking about it, metroline, might be slow to upgrade their ev bus fleet, b5lh and b9tls seem common still, as they are seeing what are the best ev bus builds too buy still.

Dwarfer1979 · 7 Jun 2026

The reasons why an operator chooses the vehicles they do will be from a combination of factors:
1. Price. Both the upfront list price and the ongoing running costs (fuel & parts)
2. Reliability. Based on either direct experience of the type or manufacturer or from recommendations from contacts & other operators.
3. Specification. How does the standard or optional fittings meet with the operators requirements and how do the mechanical specifications meet with the requirements.
4. Support. How good is the support from the manufacturer/dealer, again either by direct experience or recommendations from others.
5. Parts. Standardisation on parts & driver experience can make operation easier.
There are possibly other aspects I've forgotten.

Each operator will value each aspect differently so some will value the relationship/standardisation aspects and so will remain with one supplier unless something goes wrong whilst others will value price/cost and so will be more likely to switch between different suppliers as prices vary.

AB93 · 7 Jun 2026

Dwarfer1979 said:
There are possibly other aspects I've forgotten.

I’d add 6 - delivery timelines. Particularly relevant in London.

Edvid · 7 Jun 2026

Silent said:
Maybe, thinking about it, metroline, might be slow to upgrade their ev bus fleet, b5lh and b9tls seem common still, as they are seeing what are the best ev bus builds too buy still.

It's less to do with BEV supplier choices and more to do with distribution grid capacity constraints, which for garages connected to SSE grids (e.g. Uxbridge) are particularly acute.

Dwarfer1979 · 8 Jun 2026

AB93 said:
I’d add 6 - delivery timelines. Particularly relevant in London.

I knew there was one I had forgotten and that was one of my first thoughts when I read the original post and just got forgotten as I typed. My employers have switched their supplier for big single-deckers largely (though not entirely) from ADL to Volvo precisely due to Volvo being able to deliver EvoRas in half the time than ADL could deliver E200MMCs at a particular point where we were looking to restart our investment after COVID (nowadays delivery timescales are fairly similar between the two I believe). It is probably the main reason why Yutong is doing so well with Flixbus contractors, most European coach manufacturers are talking about 12-18 month delivery timescales for new coaches built to order currently whilst Yutong I think quote less than 6 months.

RUK · 8 Jun 2026

Dwarfer1979 said:
5. Parts. Standardisation on parts & driver experience can make operation easier.

If there are height restrictions on some routes, might they deliberately pick different manufacturers for single deckers and double deckers, or shorter vs. taller double deckers, in order to help distinguish between them as a reminder, and make it less likely that the wrong vehicles go on the wrong routes and lead to accidents such as bridge strikes?

nick291 · 8 Jun 2026

Dwarfer1979 said:
The reasons why an operator chooses the vehicles they do will be from a combination of factors:
1. Price. Both the upfront list price and the ongoing running costs (fuel & parts)
2. Reliability. Based on either direct experience of the type or manufacturer or from recommendations from contacts & other operators.
3. Specification. How does the standard or optional fittings meet with the operators requirements and how do the mechanical specifications meet with the requirements.
4. Support. How good is the support from the manufacturer/dealer, again either by direct experience or recommendations from others.
5. Parts. Standardisation on parts & driver experience can make operation easier.
There are possibly other aspects I've forgotten.

Each operator will value each aspect differently so some will value the relationship/standardisation aspects and so will remain with one supplier unless something goes wrong whilst others will value price/cost and so will be more likely to switch between different suppliers as prices vary.

Adding a 6th and that's contract obligations with TFL, they might decide what buses should be used on what routes when tendering out route contracts

Snow1964 · 8 Jun 2026

nick291 said:
Adding a 6th and that's contract obligations with TFL, they might decide what buses should be used on what routes when tendering out route contracts

For many years, certainly from about year 2000 (if not earlier) to around 2018, when TfL changed everything to electric bus spec was based on capacity, not manufacturer

Size was specified as 87 capacity for double deck (although their own overweight LT ended up with lower capacity to stay within weight limits) There were various single deck capacity. From memory they were 35 for small often narrow buses for small number of restricted routes, 45 capacity generally 8.7-9m long, 55 capacity for 10-10.4m, 60 capacity for 10.5-11m, and 70 capacity for 11.3-12m which was only used on a few high capacity routes with low bridges

They never really defined the type but had to pass route test. But TfL did tweak their specs, until around 1999 could order centre staircase, then became forward staircase (rear facing), other changes (forgotten dates) included no tip up seats, extended wheelchair to also accommodate buggy etc. Were also some later safety standard changes including handrail changes, no centre seat on back row etc.

Some changes effectively killed types, eg Quality Line ordered some Citaro-K and then TfL specified start-stop which wasn't an option.

Some operators seem to specify buses differently, Stagecoach ALX400 had centre door further forward than some other operators (although this was on later changed because of wheelchair opposite centre door rule which came in around 2002).

MotCO · 8 Jun 2026

nick291 said:
Adding a 6th and that's contract obligations with TFL, they might decide what buses should be used on what routes when tendering out route contracts

Also I believe that the Yutong double decker is not TfL compliant (maybe frontal collision area?), hence it not being used in London.

Snow1964 said:
They never really defined the type but had to pass route test.

Some early ADL 400EVs were too long for some junctions (wheelbase too long), and the only compliant bus was the Optare Metrodecker, hence its appearance on some routes. Its general unpopularity or something meant that there were few repeat orders for the Metrodecker.

Mikey C · 8 Jun 2026

AB93 said:
I’d add 6 - delivery timelines. Particularly relevant in London.

I think that because of this, operators are more prepared to try different suppliers.

Especially with the radically different, and fast developing technology of electric buses. You don't want to standardise on one type, only to find it's way worse than its rivals in service. As with the Switch Metrodecker for example...

Dwarfer1979 · 9 Jun 2026

nick291 said:
Adding a 6th and that's contract obligations with TFL, they might decide what buses should be used on what routes when tendering out route contracts

They don't tend to specify vehicle types, unless they supply the buses themselves like the Borismaster, only what features/capacity need to be included. This may affect who you can buy from but that really comes under Point 3 of Vehicle Specification if an otherwise preferred supplier can't meet some requirement a different supplier may need to be used.

joieman · 9 Jun 2026

MotCO said:
Also I believe that the Yutong double decker is not TfL compliant (maybe frontal collision area?), hence it not being used in London.

Basically all Yutongs apart from the facelifted U11DD. The absence of Yutongs in London compared to provincial bus operations seems bizarre!

Bluecardholder · 9 Jun 2026

Not sure percentage wise how many buses in London are leased and I assume that leasing costs are a factor over the contract term, and that also determines vehicle make/model. I can see that at the moment Stagecoach seem happy with Electroliner, and interestingly haven't yet ordered any ADL EV400 for London whereas for the provincial fleet they have both the EV400 and Yutong deckers.

MotCO · 9 Jun 2026

Bluecardholder said:
Not sure percentage wise how many buses in London are leased and I assume that leasing costs are a factor over the contract term, and that also determines vehicle make/model. I can see that at the moment Stagecoach seem happy with Electroliner, and interestingly haven't yet ordered any ADL EV400 for London whereas for the provincial fleet they have both the EV400 and Yutong deckers.

Bromley (Stagecoach) operate new model AD400EVs on route 61.

Stagecoach 80418 SK25BBZ On Route 61 in Orpington

Route 61 Stagecoach ADL Enviro 400 EV SK25BBZ Based At Bromley [TB]

www.flickr.com

(Not my photo) Picture depicts Stagecoach 80418, a new model AD400EV on route 61 in Orpington)

Snow1964 · 9 Jun 2026

Bluecardholder said:
Not sure percentage wise how many buses in London are leased and I assume that leasing costs are a factor over the contract term, and that also determines vehicle make/model. I can see that at the moment Stagecoach seem happy with Electroliner, and interestingly haven't yet ordered any ADL EV400 for London whereas for the provincial fleet they have both the EV400 and Yutong deckers.

I believe it varies by operator, but have heard about 30-40% leased in the past. Thats why some buses seem to leave London 7-9 years after a contract, and others survive 12-15 years because paid for and written down in the books.

TfL have their own bus safety standard, which seems to mean some buses of types acceptable in dozens of cities Worldwide, do not meet the exact requirements of TfL without parts needing redesigning. I assume this reduces choice and adds to cost.

Bluecardholder · 9 Jun 2026

MotCO said:
Bromley (Stagecoach) operate new model AD400EVs on route 61.

Stagecoach 80418 SK25BBZ On Route 61 in Orpington

Route 61 Stagecoach ADL Enviro 400 EV SK25BBZ Based At Bromley [TB]

www.flickr.com

(Not my photo) Picture depicts Stagecoach 80418, a new model AD400EV on route 61 in Orpington)

yes, my mistake.

MotCO · 9 Jun 2026

Bluecardholder said:
yes, my mistake.

No probs! Who can keep up with all the developments? (answer - London Omnibus Traction Society! LOTS.org .uk)

Mark L · 10 Jun 2026

Bluecardholder said:
Not sure percentage wise how many buses in London are leased and I assume that leasing costs are a factor over the contract term, and that also determines vehicle make/model. I can see that at the moment Stagecoach seem happy with Electroliner, and interestingly haven't yet ordered any ADL EV400 for London whereas for the provincial fleet they have both the EV400 and Yutong deckers.

When Stagecoach re-entered the London market it said that it would lease vehicles. The lease arrangements for buses are usually arranged to mirror the contract duration for the routes on which they operate.

Bluecardholder · 10 Jun 2026

Mark L said:
When Stagecoach re-entered the London market it said that it would lease vehicles. The lease arrangements for buses are usually arranged to mirror the contract duration for the routes on which they operate.

According to LOTS they have returned the BYD/ADL deckers from East London to the leasing company, but retain the ones at SELKENT.

computerSaysNo · 10 Jun 2026

Mark L said:
When Stagecoach re-entered the London market it said that it would lease vehicles. The lease arrangements for buses are usually arranged to mirror the contract duration for the routes on which they operate.

So do the buses which are leased normally get re-leased by the new operator when a route changes operator? Or does the new operator bring in their own vehicles?

Mark L · 10 Jun 2026

computerSaysNo said:
So do the buses which are leased normally get re-leased by the new operator when a route changes operator? Or does the new operator bring in their own vehicles?

Invariably the latter. If a route is retained by the incumbent with existing vehicles then a new lease agreement will be entered into.

Mikey C · 10 Jun 2026

Mark L said:
When Stagecoach re-entered the London market it said that it would lease vehicles. The lease arrangements for buses are usually arranged to mirror the contract duration for the routes on which they operate.

Surely lease costs will be expensive though if the contract duration is 5 to 7 years, to take account the risk for the leasing contract of being stuck with unwanted, relatively new buses?

The other London operators, other than small top ups, won't take over mid life buses, and there is a limited market outside London for them, as 7 year old buses would still be quite expensive, especially hybrids or electric double deckers.

Mark L · 10 Jun 2026

Mikey C said:
Surely lease costs will be expensive though if the contract duration is 5 to 7 years, to take account the risk for the leasing contract of being stuck with unwanted, relatively new buses?

The other London operators, other than small top ups, won't take over mid life buses, and there is a limited market outside London for them, as 7 year old buses would still be quite expensive, especially hybrids or electric double deckers.

The lease costs will no doubt take account of the likelihood of a follow on agreement if a new contract using existing vehicles is secured. Some vehicles have gone back to the lessor fairly early in their lives such as the BYD/ADL Enviro 400EVs used by Stagecoach on routes 173 and 174.

Mikey C · 10 Jun 2026

Mark L said:
The lease costs will no doubt take account of the likelihood of a follow on agreement if a new contract using existing vehicles is secured. Some vehicles have gone back to the lessor fairly early in their lives such as the BYD/ADL Enviro 400EVs used by Stagecoach on routes 173 and 174.

Which seems a rather expensive way of doing things, when you have (I dunno) 50 London routes, and can move buses around when you lose and win tenders.

What's happened incidentally to those ex Stagecoach E400EVs?

Mark L · 10 Jun 2026

Mikey C said:
Which seems a rather expensive way of doing things, when you have (I dunno) 50 London routes, and can move buses around when you lose and win tenders.

What's happened incidentally to those ex Stagecoach E400EVs?

It seems to work and as a rule buses in London tend only to move routes when contracts are renewed. As for the Stagecoach E400EVs, a few are now with UNO but the bulk seem to have disappeared off the face of the earth! I guess they are parked up in a field somewhere.

700007 · 10 Jun 2026

Dwarfer1979 said:
The reasons why an operator chooses the vehicles they do will be from a combination of factors:
1. Price. Both the upfront list price and the ongoing running costs (fuel & parts)
2. Reliability. Based on either direct experience of the type or manufacturer or from recommendations from contacts & other operators.
3. Specification. How does the standard or optional fittings meet with the operators requirements and how do the mechanical specifications meet with the requirements.
4. Support. How good is the support from the manufacturer/dealer, again either by direct experience or recommendations from others.
5. Parts. Standardisation on parts & driver experience can make operation easier.
There are possibly other aspects I've forgotten.

Each operator will value each aspect differently so some will value the relationship/standardisation aspects and so will remain with one supplier unless something goes wrong whilst others will value price/cost and so will be more likely to switch between different suppliers as prices vary.

AB93 said:
I’d add 6 - delivery timelines. Particularly relevant in London.

I would add a 7th point which is partially related to no. 4 but worthy of it's own point anyways that different operators have different relationships with the manufacturers. Some, for example, like Wright and Transport UK are generally very good (it helps that the ex MD of TUK London Bus is now at Wright) or Uno and BYD. Sometimes the relationship can take a nosedive as operators may feel ignored or poorly supported after purchasing a fleet from a manufacturer - Go-Ahead London have made no secret that they are generally unhappy with the new Wright Electroliners they have received due to 'poor quality control' related complaints and seem to favour other manufacturers for the most part.

Snow1964 · 10 Jun 2026

Latest TfL Board Finance Committee papers are out

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/s26441/fc-20260618-item05b-finance-report-part1-appx1.pdf

Page 12 has buses for period 1 (4 weeks in April)

Bus Income £133m (£3m under budget), but described as promising growth
Operating costs £215m
Operating deficit £82m

At one time Buses used to be subsidised by the tube, but page 13 shows that had similar operating deficit of £84m (which is 29% under budget). Operating deficit is before new capital expenditure

MotCO · 10 Jun 2026

Snow1964 said:
Latest TfL Board Finance Committee papers are out

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/s26441/fc-20260618-item05b-finance-report-part1-appx1.pdf

Page 12 has buses for period 1 (4 weeks in April)

Bus Income £133m (£3m under budget), but described as promising growth
Operating costs £215m
Operating deficit £82m

At one time Buses used to be subsidised by the tube, but page 13 shows that had similar operating deficit of £84m (which is 29% under budget). Operating deficit is before new capital expenditure

The commentary accompanying the slide states:
"Bus demand has shown promising growth this period, although this may be impacted by seasonal drivers. In the period, journeys are 3 million higher than Budget; on a like-for-like basis, journeys are 3.3% higher than last year. Passenger income is £3m lower than Budget. Operating costs are in line with Budget."

I didn't know TfL employed seasonal drivers

London Bus operators and bus makes. Why do certain operators buy certain buses.

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