Avanti 805's under the wires on WCML (Euston - LIverpool)

Skie · 6 Jun 2026

LYuen said:
It is from Siemens [1] and is widely quoted by the press. Not that I blindly accept such figure, but whether it is an over-conservative estimation is a completely different discussion from this post.
[1] https://www.mobility.siemens.com/global/en/portfolio/references/metro-london.html

A 20% increase in efficiency doesn’t mean the train uses less power though. Ramming more punters in makes them more efficient, accelerating quicker makes them more efficient, dumping power back into the wires makes them more efficient.

Modern trains will use more power in general because their traction motors will draw more energy to provide more motive effort. And they will have more onboard draws, such as air con, more computers, more passenger info screens etc.

It’s why you see many new fleets requiring a lot of infrastructure improvements.

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GraphitProjekt · 6 Jun 2026

Yeah, I was surprised to learn that Merseyrail underwent a rather significant PSU to support the Stadler fleet. It was little talked about. I believe similar work in the early 2000s happened in Kent and Sussex for Electrostar fleets

Nicholas Lewis · 6 Jun 2026

GraphitProjekt said:
Yeah, I was surprised to learn that Merseyrail underwent a rather significant PSU to support the Stadler fleet. It was little talked about. I believe similar work in the early 2000s happened in Kent and Sussex for Electrostar fleets

Liverpool Combined Authority new all about it as it was a cost reimbursable executed by NR at considerably more cost than was forecast but a necessity given the new units are twice as powerful and have the associated air con loads as well.

jamesst · 6 Jun 2026

Nicholas Lewis said:
Liverpool Combined Authority new all about it as it was a cost reimbursable executed by NR at considerably more cost than was forecast but a necessity given the new units are twice as powerful and have the associated air con loads as well.

And despite all the upgrades there's still power issues at various locations across the network.

Nicholas Lewis · 6 Jun 2026

jamesst said:
And despite all the upgrades there's still power issues at various locations across the network.

I dont believe Merseyrail suffers any restrictions its the 25kV network thats tight on capacity on the NW.

jamesst · 7 Jun 2026

Nicholas Lewis said:
I dont believe Merseyrail suffers any restrictions its the 25kV network thats tight on capacity on the NW.

Not as severe as not being able to use all electric trains but the 777s (esp 8 cars) do need to be used in half power at some locations and can struggle to draw power at others.

QueensCurve · 7 Jun 2026

frodshamfella said:
for Hartford, yes. Its only once a day at the moment. Think in BR days it was a bit more regular, certainly Hartford is a busier station these days.

When I lived in the area and later visits (1970s to 1980s) there was just the hourly Crewe to Liverpool plus an early Liverpool to Euston with a Restaurant car service and balancing service in the evening. The Liverpool to Euston loco-hauled set would certainly have been 11 cars. As I recall there was no shortage of platform to accommodate it.

jfollows · 7 Jun 2026

There were, however, services at that time which didn’t fit in platforms; Lichfield TV down comes to mind, perhaps Congleton, so being too long wasn’t the same problem as today.
11 car Pendolinos could serve Hartford with SDO such as used at Wilmslow on the up Styal line platform.

The Planner · 8 Jun 2026

QueensCurve said:
When I lived in the area and later visits (1970s to 1980s) there was just the hourly Crewe to Liverpool plus an early Liverpool to Euston with a Restaurant car service and balancing service in the evening. The Liverpool to Euston loco-hauled set would certainly have been 11 cars. As I recall there was no shortage of platform to accommodate it.

Mark 2 carriages were 20m, Pendos are bigger.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jun 2026 ==

jfollows said:
There were, however, services at that time which didn’t fit in platforms; Lichfield TV down comes to mind, perhaps Congleton, so being too long wasn’t the same problem as today.
11 car Pendolinos could serve Hartford with SDO such as used at Wilmslow on the up Styal line platform.

They could if they want to put the balises in. Whether they want to is a different matter.

Dr Hoo · 8 Jun 2026

QueensCurve said:
When I lived in the area and later visits (1970s to 1980s) there was just the hourly Crewe to Liverpool plus an early Liverpool to Euston with a Restaurant car service and balancing service in the evening. The Liverpool to Euston loco-hauled set would certainly have been 11 cars. As I recall there was no shortage of platform to accommodate it.

As I recall it the main justification for Intercity calls at Hartford was premium business traffic, primarily as a ‘Northwich Parkway’ for the large concentration of chemical industries in the area. That was in the days when business was done face-to-to face.

Hartford may have a higher footfall these days but is that still with a significant number of business travellers?

Merle Haggard · 8 Jun 2026

Dr Hoo said:
As I recall it the main justification for Intercity calls at Hartford was premium business traffic, primarily as a ‘Northwich Parkway’ for the large concentration of chemical industries in the area. That was in the days when business was done face-to-to face.

Hartford may have a higher footfall these days but is that still with a significant number of business travellers?

It was, I think, similar to Hampton in Arden on the first electric West Midlands services - for passengers from the Solihull, etc. area that previously used the ex GW service. Presumably effectively replaced by International.
Curiously, while Hampton in Arden still has traces of the long platforms provided at the time (though barriered down to 8 car) the car park seems tiny for a park and ride destination.

jfollows · 8 Jun 2026

Merle Haggard said:
It was, I think, similar to Hampton in Arden on the first electric West Midlands services - for passengers from the Solihull, etc. area that previously used the ex GW service. Presumably effectively replaced by International.
Curiously, while Hampton in Arden still has traces of the long platforms provided at the time (though barriered down to 8 car) the car park seems tiny for a park and ride destination.

I used to go home on the 16:23 Manchester-Coventry in 1977, after Birmingham International had opened in January 1976, and “my” train still called at Hampton in Arden rather than International. (Off topic, I know, see https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...he-1970s-early-80s.228284/page-4#post-5545130)

QueensCurve · 8 Jun 2026

The Planner said:
Mark 2 carriages were 20m, Pendos are bigger.

I remember the 6:53 off hartford when it was formed mainly of Mk3 stock (23m).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jun 2026 ==

Dr Hoo said:
As I recall it the main justification for Intercity calls at Hartford was premium business traffic, primarily as a ‘Northwich Parkway’ for the large concentration of chemical industries in the area. That was in the days when business was done face-to-to face.

An interesting thought when you consider how limited the parking used to be.

The Planner · 8 Jun 2026

QueensCurve said:
I remember the 6:53 off hartford when it was formed mainly of Mk3 stock (23m).

Hartford has disused parts of the platforms though doesn't it? Looks like around 40m on Google Maps.

AndrewE · 8 Jun 2026

QueensCurve said:
I remember the 6:53 off Hartford when it was formed mainly of Mk3 stock (23m).

An interesting thought when you consider how limited the parking used to be.

I suspect that most of the "premium business" traffic was being picked up by cars to take them to the various ICI works and research facilities around Northwich and then delivered back for their return trains (or vv.)

Dr Hoo · 8 Jun 2026

QueensCurve said:
An interesting thought when you consider how limited the parking used to be.

Back in the day when the Hartford IC calls started there were far fewer multi-car households. It’s not exactly a long way to/ from Northwich and both family drop-off/ pick-up and taxis are pretty handy. To be quite clear, the LM vision was very much as ‘Chemical Parkway’ rather than ‘Cheshire and North Wales Parkway’. The LM had already seen how Runcorn calls functioned for other parts of the alkali industry.

GraphitProjekt · 9 Jun 2026

jamesst said:
Not as severe as not being able to use all electric trains but the 777s (esp 8 cars) do need to be used in half power at some locations and can struggle to draw power at others.

What locations out of interest, I've sometimes wondered if the distance between Capenhurst substation and Chester might be an issue.

pokemonsuper9 · 9 Jun 2026

GraphitProjekt said:
What locations out of interest, I've sometimes wondered if the distance between Capenhurst substation and Chester might be an issue.

There's quite a lot on the Ormskirk line, look for signs at the end of platforms saying "E8". That tells the driver only half power until the next station.

jamesst · 9 Jun 2026

GraphitProjekt said:
What locations out of interest, I've sometimes wondered if the distance between Capenhurst substation and Chester might be an issue.

Bache to Chester has had longstanding issues with the power that flare up every so often with some other ongoing issues round Hooton.
Ormskirk to Town green, Liverpool South Parkway to Hunts Cross and Hightown to Hall Road all have power restrictions for 8 cars.

In addition a large section of the West Kirby line has been restricted to half power only for the past few months as Bidston substation is out of action.

YamYamDave · 15 Jun 2026

Freight running on diesel vs electric will likely be a big part of the problem. Class 99 and 93 will help fix this as 1 of these can replace a pair of class 92s. Class 92s guzzle the electric juice in comparison to any other electric traction on the WCML.

sh24 · 15 Jun 2026

YamYamDave said:
Freight running on diesel vs electric will likely be a big part of the problem. Class 99 and 93 will help fix this as 1 of these can replace a pair of class 92s. Class 92s guzzle the electric juice in comparison to any other electric traction on the WCML.

What trains use pairs of 92's?

pokemonsuper9 · 15 Jun 2026

sh24 said:
What trains use pairs of 92's?

Presumably meant pairs of 90s which are very common on Freightliner container trains (I even saw one with 4 on Saturday but only 2 had their pantographs up).

Merle Haggard · 15 Jun 2026

An 805 weighs about 250 tonnes. Class 90s on liner trains have a trailing load of over 1,000 tonnes. Is it surprising that the latter use more electricity?

The Planner · 15 Jun 2026

sh24 said:
What trains use pairs of 92's?

What trains still use a single 92?

sh24 · 15 Jun 2026

The Planner said:
What trains still use a single 92?

Just the sleepers I think?

Railperf · 22 Jul 2026

Seems to be a Class 807 on the 9:05 to Liverpool today. How will that run in diesel mode?
Or are we to expect special arrangements made by signallers to let it pass through the section?
Edit: nothing on RTT, but Live rail record suggests the 807 being removed from the service at an unscheduled Crewe stop?
Either terminating there or being replaced by an 805 appearing from somewhere?

rmHawk765 · 22 Jul 2026

GraphitProjekt said:
I believe similar work in the early 2000s happened in Kent and Sussex for Electrostar fleets

This was to support the air conditioning on the new trains. The previous supplies simply could not handle the extra load.

AndrewE · 22 Jul 2026

Railperf said:
Seems to be a Class 807 on the 9:05 to Liverpool today. How will that run in diesel mode?
Or are we to expect special arrangements made by signallers to let it pass through the section?
Edit: nothing on RTT, but Live rail record suggests the 807 being removed from the service at an unscheduled Crewe stop?
Either terminating there or being replaced by an 805 appearing from somewhere?

if it is just terminated at Crewe then at least there is a Brum - Liverpool 10 mins behind it, even if it is only 4 cars. When Avanti tip people off late running trains which should have gone to Chester they have to transfer to the (often 2-car) TfW shuttle, which gets rammed....

hexagon789 · 22 Jul 2026

Railperf said:
Seems to be a Class 807 on the 9:05 to Liverpool today. How will that run in diesel mode?
Or are we to expect special arrangements made by signallers to let it pass through the section?
Edit: nothing on RTT, but Live rail record suggests the 807 being removed from the service at an unscheduled Crewe stop?
Either terminating there or being replaced by an 805 appearing from somewhere?

Avanti JourneyCheck states:

'09:05 London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street due 11:35 will be terminated at Crewe.
It will no longer call at Runcorn and Liverpool Lime Street.
This is due to more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time.
Will be formed of 7 coaches instead of 5. There are no reservations on this service.'

Railperf · 22 Jul 2026

hexagon789 said:
Avanti JourneyCheck states:

'09:05 London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street due 11:35 will be terminated at Crewe.
It will no longer call at Runcorn and Liverpool Lime Street.
This is due to more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time.
Will be formed of 7 coaches instead of 5. There are no reservations on this service.'

That's fantastic when Avanti are using other 805 sets under the wires between Euston and Brum rather than swapping one out for the Liverpool and replacing it with the 807

Avanti 805's under the wires on WCML (Euston - LIverpool)

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