Wyrleybart
Established Member
That is interesting. I somehow never considered S160s to be rated as class 8 . Presumably this will be used on the Whitby runs when it is commissioned.
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TOPS Classifications of heritage stock on the mainline
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The RCTS guide has S160 6046 down as 98246 - https://features.rcts.org.uk/locomotives/tops-class-98/
Above text from https://www.churnetvalleyrailway.co.uk/steam-locos
Wyrleybart
Established Member
Thanks for that "Jonathan".
Presume the S160s never entered British Railways ownership so were never classified. And maybe the TOPS classification default is class 2.
I would have thought that as the USA version of a "dubdee" they would be class 8F but they seemed much lighter in construction.
Brilliant, thank you!
many thanks - that’s brilliant!
I wonder if this received a TOPS number for the main line filming work done in early 2023, alongside three other Bluebell coaches (1464, 1482, 1818).
North West trains, 2023 - andrewstransport
44932 T&T 47804, 5Z62, Carnforth, Mon 13 February 2023 1 - 0759. The consist was Southern 1464, 1482, 1818 & 2526, and WCRC 3058, 4854, 99327 & 99312. The train was going to Hull for filming. It returned to Carnforth on the 16th.
andrewstransport.smugmug.com
SECR 65
Member
I wonder if any of these coaches had TOPS numbers in BR days? Especially 1818, being a MK1 (the other three are Bulleids). Although 1818 was withdrawn by the 80s because it doesn't have ETH. I'm sure they all got TOPS numbers for the mainline move.I wonder if this received a TOPS number for the main line filming work done in early 2023, alongside three other Bluebell coaches (1464, 1482, 1818).
North West trains, 2023 - andrewstransport
44932 T&T 47804, 5Z62, Carnforth, Mon 13 February 2023 1 - 0759. The consist was Southern 1464, 1482, 1818 & 2526, and WCRC 3058, 4854, 99327 & 99312. The train was going to Hull for filming. It returned to Carnforth on the 16th.
Some of the vintage caoches from the Bluebell (4 wheelers, even) went to Kings Cross a while back for filming, so they must have TOPS numbers as well I imagine.
Trainz6013
Member
I've just changed the name of the thread to better suit the discussion around the coaches, rather than the title being about the steam Class 98 
While never in BR ownership, S160s were used on British railways during the war, in 1943-44, including by the LMSR, who I assume allocated a power classification, in their system that came to be used by BR, as part of their 'what to do with these' instructions.
norbitonflyer
Established Member
To allow recording on TOPS, many of the BR coaching stock fleet, including multiple unit cars, were renumbered in the early 80s to avoid duplication with locomotives and surviving Bulleid design EPB cars, the latter numbered in the ex-Southern Railway range (with an S suffix) despite having been built in the 1950s. 1818 would not have been renumbered - the class 01 diesels were long gone and there were only ever five of them anyway (three of which never got TOPS numbers) so 1818 was perfectly valid as a TOPs number.
SECR 65
Member
So are you saying that 1818 would have operated on the mainline a few years ago under its origninal number, 1818, whereas the earlier coaches would have recieved a different TOPS, as seen by 2526?
As you say, for example, 25728, another Bluebell coach, was renumbered to 18728 so it did not overlap with TOPS class 25 diesels.
Adrian Barr
Member
1818 is currently registered on TOPS under its original number as 1818. The Bulleid coaches (such as 1464, withdrawn in 1968) did not survive in use long enough to be given TOPS numbers so it makes more sense to use the 99xxx series in TOPS originally used for "privately owned coaches."
The 99xxx series was used to distinguish privately owned coaches from BR stock - this quote is from the preamble to the list of 99xxx coach numbers in the Platform 5 combined volume Locomotives and Coaching Stock 1986
After privatisation, a separate number series for privately owned coaches was no longer relevant, and preserved coaches registered to operate on the main line could use their original TOPS numbers (like 1818). This made sense, especially if the coach itself retained its old TOPS number painted on the side. The 99xxx number series wasn't completely abandoned, and it's interesting to see some recent additions to it.
I remember seeing the yellow plates (with the 99xxx TOPS number) fitted to privately owned coaches used on railtours, such as the SRPS set. I think it was fairly common for the painted number on the side of the coach and the 99xxx number on the yellow plate to be different - for example the coach might display its old BR TOPS number despite being renumbered as 99xxx, similar to a preserved loco displaying its original number despite being renumbered to 89xxx in TOPS.
I don't think these yellow plates are now required - for example the Royal Scotsman stock has the TOPS number under the data panel at the end of the coach, and the VSOE is similar.
The Royal Scotsman is mainly formed of 99xxx series coaches, but coaches 315 and 316 (which were put into service in recent years) use their 3-digit Pullman numbers in TOPS.
Some examples from the Royal Scotsman and VSOE where the TOPS number is visible:
99968 "State Car No.5" previously 10541
https://www.flickr.com/photos/tractorclag/27229356310/ (Photo: Roy Bradley)
https://cs.rhrp.org.uk/CarriageSurvey/displaycarriage.php?Ref=ZKRUL2P0AWBE95YOMI6Q
99967 "Dining Car No.1" previously 317
https://www.flickr.com/photos/rob37430/11355085423/ (Photo: Robert Dumelow)
https://cs.rhrp.org.uk/CarriageSurvey/displaycarriage.php?Ref=8SLDWH1VKIZ932JYB5EP
316 "State Car No.1" previously in departmental use as DB 975608
https://www.flickr.com/photos/67444577@N02/54861693672/ (Photo: Andy Cole)
https://cs.rhrp.org.uk/CarriageSurvey/displaycarriage.php?Ref=N9730USQFTKLOC8MJP1R
99543 "Vera" previously 284
https://www.flickr.com/photos/nigelmenzies/12018037295/ (Photo: Nigel Menzies)
https://cs.rhrp.org.uk/CarriageSurvey/displaycarriage.php?Ref=GN053SMWQ7LKDZF68OAP
The VSOE is interesting as the named Pullman coaches use 99xxx numbers in TOPS, but the 1996 Platform 5 combined volume suggests they may have reverted to their 3-digit Pullman numbers in TOPS for a few years after privatisation (they are listed under their 99xxx numbers again by the 2000 edition).
An oddity in the 1986 combined volume is that there are a handful of surviving CCTs (S1439, S2010, S2239, S2516) and PMVs (S1712 and S1865) in the Southern Region number series, which appear to have retained their original numbers in TOPS.
I mention this because there are two Southern vehicles numbered 1464 - the Bulleid coach mentioned already (withdrawn before TOPS was implemented) and also a PMV -
https://cs.rhrp.org.uk/CarriageSurvey/displaycarriage.php?Ref=MPBCKW1NORF9J3G50IYD
This is perhaps one reason why the Bulleid coach 1464 was likely given an (unknown) 99xxx series number - to avoid using a number series in TOPS that had previously been used for PMVs.
Which is a good excuse to link a couple of excellent photos of PMVs in use during the TOPS era:
PMV on the back of a Salisbury - Exeter train in 1978:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/pics-by-john/21023245814/ (Photo: John Woolley)
A couple of PMVs in the consist of a parcels train passing Beeston in 1979:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/pics-by-john/8412452547/ (Photo: John Woolley)
SECR 65
Member
Many thanks for this information.
When 2526 went mainline last year, it carried its TOPS number with a removable transfer on the underframe of the coach.