What would be the feasibility of reopening the Farringdon to Moorgate spur, as a means to alleviate platform capacity at St Pancras High Level and terminate EMR connect services at Moorgate? I understand that the spur has been severed to allow for a platform extension at Farringdon, but would reconstruction of a junction be possible, albeit at a tighter alignment to rejoin the disused railway?
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Reopening Farringdon - Moorgate for EMR connect
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swt_passenger
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Not possible. There’s no room at all if you want to keep a 12 car platform, the platform almost reaches as far as the Snow Hill tunnel portal. It cannot be moved north because of the steep gradient where the Thameslink lines cross under the metropolitan.
A - it wouldn't be possible physically, the alignment would require total rebuilding. B - you would have a capacity problem at St Pancras Thameslink as EMR trains aren't fitted with ATO and would have a longer dwell.
What is the thought here? There are only six possible EMR paths and that aligns reasonably well with four platforms at St Pancras High Level.
EMR Connect basically fits into one platform, and the other three platforms will shortly have standard rolling stock so turnarounds can be optimised as necessary.
It would also be necessary to remove the stairs and lifts up to the Thameslink entrance/exit on the south side of Cowcross Street. The lift also goes down to the Elizabeth Line.
swt_passenger
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Yes of course. I thought ‘platform’ included all that, but it’s as well to point it out.
Leaving aside the technical (non) feasibilty which has been well answered, and the fact that the land is owned by TfL, there isn’t an issue with platform capacity at St Pancras High Level.
westcoaster
Established Member
I was thinking just the other day, in a moment of if i run the railway what would i do.
When southeastern order a replacement fleet I'd move the 707's to EMR connect and put the pans back on them. I'd run the Connect service through the core ( but where could you turn them back, Herne Hill is to short for 10 car running, as is Beckenham junction), what about using the very rare curve from Metropolitan junction around to terminate in Cannon street. Or go via elephant & castle turn right at Loughborough junction and Brixton into Victoria.
When southeastern order a replacement fleet I'd move the 707's to EMR connect and put the pans back on them. I'd run the Connect service through the core ( but where could you turn them back, Herne Hill is to short for 10 car running, as is Beckenham junction), what about using the very rare curve from Metropolitan junction around to terminate in Cannon street. Or go via elephant & castle turn right at Loughborough junction and Brixton into Victoria.
I think previous postings have suggested that 707s are underpowered for running alongside 700s. Refitting them to provide more rolling stock for Thameslink services did seem like a good idea at one point.
I don't think they are due to be displaced from Southeastern though.
This one has been discussed many times on this forum. EMR Connect should never be put into the Thameslink core because of resilience issues both for Thameslink and the Northamptonshire stations.
Thameslink is already too complicated and flaky, it needs less of that not more. If you want to see what a Thameslink service would be like for the Northamptonshire stations, then read the frequent tales of woe here about the Thameslink service at the stations between Hitchin and Peterborough.
zwk500
Veteran Member
Leaving aside the capacity issues with both of these, what journeys are these options trying to serve?
Bletchleyite
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Not possible because it was closed to allow the platforms at Farringdon to be extended to 12 car - the only way to do this was to build across the junction.
zwk500
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Snow Hill tunnel (London) - Wikipedia
Category:Farringdon station - Wikimedia Commons
Have a look at these pictures to answer the question about an alternative alignment.
In pure speculation land - terminate the Sutton loop at Blackfriars and use the 707s on those? Then use the freed up 700s for the EMR connect through the core.
I can maybe see some sense in treating the Corby service as part of Thameslink rather than EMR, and running Corby to Brighton or wherever, but as has been said Thameslink is too sprawling already, it needs bits chopped off, not added.
Haywain
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How do you then provide the service to stations from Kentish Town to St Albans?
This keeps on coming up. What do we have against the people of Northamptonshire that they need their train service slowed down?
Dr Hoo
Established Member
As the saying on these Forums goes; where is the Like button?
I'm saying the opposite. I can see why it would be suggested, because Corby is the only remaining outer suburban service from St Pancras on the MML. But I'm not suggesting that it should actually happen.
Now that I'm aware of the the impossibility of reopening the branch, the logic behind such a proposal is less introducing more paths - but more about freeing up platform capacity to allow for more longer intercity services, when demand dictates. The running as Thameslink proposal is interesting however!
Palmerston
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Is there anything useful that could be done with the Moorgate and Barbican platforms?
swt_passenger
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Overnight stock stabling for LU. It’s all been designed, and they started installing the points at Farringdon. I think there’s a thread about it somewhere in the LU sub-forum, here you go:
Widened Lines
any idea if the Widened Lines between Farringdon and Moorgate will be used for anything?
www.railforums.co.uk
There are other theoretical options, they could even terminate and reverse more Circle or Met trains there, but I think a role for LU is the only potential use.
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That is 7 x 8 car 700s. How would you deploy those from Corby, and to where?
You could run every service at full length now, if the rolling stock was available. Platform capacity at St Pancras is simply not an issue.
Mcr Warrior
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Be right in saying that the former Thameslink platforms at Barbican (3 + 4) and at Moorgate (5 + 6), prior to closure in 2009, had fairly limited lengths, particularly so at Barbican station?
Dr Hoo
Established Member
Definitely so, Barbican was less than 8 x20m. (I worked on the original 1970s Midland Suburban Electrification project.)
swt_passenger
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Wasn’t Barbican’s down platform too narrow for normal use as well?
Dr Hoo
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Yes, definitely ‘Do not alight here’ territory.
Helvellyn
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On the plus side the good burghers of Wellingborough and Corby would get First Class back.
JohnElliott
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To dive further into fantasy, if the original curve from Barbican in the direction of Blackfriars could be reinstated (which I think would require the demolition of the Grade II listed Smithfield poultry market) that would allow trains from the south to be terminated in the event of disruption or engineering works.
I thought that curve was too tight to take anything longer than a 4-wheeled van?