As a youngster I travelled many times on the overnight sleeper from Stranraer to Euston in the early 80's and we had a 47 to Carlisle and then 86 or 87 to Euston. I would like to ask if anyone knows what sub class of 47's were used and where they were based. I also recall that the corridor coaches were steam heated, and I'm confused how this worked with both the 47's and the electric loco's presumably MK2 dual heated??
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Stranraer "Boat Train"
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The coaches were dual heated as well. Most Mk1 stock built after around 1960 were so fitted, as the WCML electrification was coming on line and the new AC electric locos were only ETH fitted. Meanwhile the bulk of Class 47 were steam heat only, so the heating changed over at Carlisle.
Scotland had very few Class 47 of its own, and the quite considerable number in use there were on extended diagrams from depots in England. In the 1970s I used to watch the 0810 from Glasgow Queen St to Aberdeen depart quite often while waiting there, the steam heat Class 47 officially was based all over - Tinsley, Crewe, Landore, all around. At that time the Glasgow to Stranraer trains would have been Class 47 locos as well.
Scotland had very few Class 47 of its own, and the quite considerable number in use there were on extended diagrams from depots in England. In the 1970s I used to watch the 0810 from Glasgow Queen St to Aberdeen depart quite often while waiting there, the steam heat Class 47 officially was based all over - Tinsley, Crewe, Landore, all around. At that time the Glasgow to Stranraer trains would have been Class 47 locos as well.
Further to what @Taunton said above. The subclass most likely to have been on the trains out to Stranraer would have been boiler fitted 47/0s.
Eastfield depot had a number of them and they were amongst the last working boiler fitted locos in the country.
Sultan1056
Member
IIRC by the early 80’s Class 47/4s were used between Carlisle and Stranraer. These could have been from any depot but more likely to be Crewe or Eastfield’s examples.
Leighton’s Lists has an article on Scottish 20 workings (linked below) including quite a few jobs working or piloting the Stranraer. Those records show the odd EH 47 on the Euston in the winter of 83/84 but quite a few more in the following year.
leightonlists.com
Class 20s in Scotland
Thanks to Mike Lewis, Ian Saunders, Richard Astley and Jim Burton for their help with researching these workings 20001 20002 (with 20044) 1220 Inverness – Glasgow (ex Perth) 310584 20003 2000…
leightonlists.com
Thanks for those brilliant replies, so in all probability those 47's would be out of Eastfield then I assume, I do recall seeing large logo and intercity liveries if memory serves me right, but definitely large logo on several occasions. So although Eastfield based were they properly allocated to somewhere like Crewe? I believe they were incredibly prolific on the network and most drivers trained on them (open to confirmation) Would they have been refuelled at Carlisle and would the drivers be Carlisle based? Once again thanks for any detail. One final point, I recall seeing sleeper stock in Willesden back then, again I assume that would be the Stranraer or Holyhead's berthed during the day.
Falcon1200
Established Member
If the loco working from Stranraer to Carlisle then returned to Carlisle it would (obviously) go nowhere near Eastfield! And would therefore, I would have thought, be more likely to be an LMR example, probably from Crewe. IIRC the first two morning trains from Carlisle to Glasgow Central via Dumfries were resourced by the LMR, not just the locos but the stock too.
Gloster
Veteran Member
I don’t think that it would have been Carlisle traincrew right through as Carlisle men only knew as far as Kilmarnock or, possibly, Ayr. Thereafter it would have been either Ayr or Stranraer men.
The loco working for Euston-Stranraer trains north of Carlisle was from the Carlisle end so the booked traction was LMR class 47/4s from Crewe. The Eastfield class 47/4s were mainly for the Highland Main Line north of Mossend.
One other traincrew aspect we can't be sure of is whether there was a second man to look after the boiler, which would be necessary for steam heat to be used. Was there a shunter at Stranraer or did the traincrew have to do that?
There were always 2 men in the loco, I do remember that. I also think through the fog of time that they changed at Kilmarnock but that could be totally incorrect. The train was sometimes held there for quite a while.
Buzby
Established Member
Anyone know if passenger numbers on the sleeper when the Port Road was shut? Clearly the number of rail miles traversed increased because of the Kilmarnock ‘diversion’, also was the increased journey times an issue?
It closed on 14 June 1965 as you probably already know, not because of the ferry traffic to Larne, but the local traffic was negligible so Beeching swung the axe. The rationale at that time was divert the ferry passengers and close the road. Passenger loading is unavailable as far as I can tell, I may be corrected on that however.
Increased journey times are rarely an issue on overnight trains (until you start getting above about 10 hours)- indeed, more often than not they are advantageous.
Merle Haggard
Established Member
I remember noticing in some internal BR weekly document about 1986 that the service was replaced by a coach replacement between Carlisle and Stranraer because of engineering work. As a result the coach arrived a considerable time before the train's booked arrival, having obviously travelled more directly.
The train was an overnight sleeper, so unlikely many noticed. The Port Road closed in 1965 and the southern end of the WCML was electrified by 1966, so journey time change was minimal.
It was longstanding, from before car ferry days, that the ship for Larne left Stranraer at 0700, passengers from Glasgow (the majority) as well would leave there around 2200, getting to Stranraer some time after midnight and going straight on board, to be joined by the London passengers shortly before sailing. The lines to Stranraer were open all night and handled freight as well. Eventually more intensive use of the ships prevailed.
It was longstanding, from before car ferry days, that the ship for Larne left Stranraer at 0700, passengers from Glasgow (the majority) as well would leave there around 2200, getting to Stranraer some time after midnight and going straight on board, to be joined by the London passengers shortly before sailing. The lines to Stranraer were open all night and handled freight as well. Eventually more intensive use of the ships prevailed.
I grew up in Larne hence the interest in Stranraer and the port road. Yes the Stranraer sailing was 0700 and as they were royal mail carriers they had massive pressure to sail on time hence the Princess Victoria disaster. In my time we had firstly the Caledonian Princess, then the Antrim Princess and the Ailsa Princess both now long gone. Following on we had new ships namely the 'Galloway Princess" she was the first new build of those ferries and she crossed the North Channel more times than any of us can count. It's a beautiful memory of that vessel that we now have a preserved class 47 of the same name even though the Galloway Princess went for scrap many years back.
LickeyIncliner
Member
Sleeper stock at Willesden during the day in the early 1980s could presumably have been off any of a wide range of services. There was a thread on this forum recently about when various sleeper services ceased - I can't immediately find it, but I recall quite a few operating into the 80s.
TheSel
Member
Solweytracker
Member
There was also a through Euston -Stranraer daytime service for some of the 1970s/80s, again changing traction at Carlisle. For example 1S74 10.15 Euston - Stranraer and 1M54 11.00 Stranraer - Euston in the 12 May 1980/10 May 1981 timetable. My memory is of them being well loaded at Carlisle.
Gloster
Veteran Member
The coaches in the second shot were from a pool of (approximately) three Brake Second Corridor and thirteen Corridor Second that were repainted from late 1982 for the Glasgow-Stranraer boat connection. They were used to form two sets, but were withdrawn (I think) around the end of 1986 as they mostly came from early batches of Mark 1.
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D6130
Established Member
The last time I travelled on the daytime Stranraer-Euston service (1M54) - in the Summer of 1985 - it was hauled by Inverness-allocated 47 467 as far as Carlisle, with a Stranraer driver from there to Ayr and an Ayr driver from there to Carlisle. On arrival at Carlisle, the 47 was exchanged for 86 103, which went forward with a Carlisle driver.
ISTR that in the late 1970s/early 1980s the 47 on the Stranraer sleeper was often piloted between Ayr and Stranraer and vice-versa in Autumn and Winter by a 25, 27 or even occasionally a 20....to assist with poor railhead conditions on the steep gradients
See the link in post #5.
Belfastmarty
Member
<sigh> Stranraer when it was interesting, and not the windswept wasteland of modern times. Thanks for posting, brings back many happy memories of family holidays starting with the Larne - Stranraer ferry.
cadder toad
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At Carlisle on passenger trains in 1980 and 1981, 47473 Landore, 427 Eastfield, 425 Finsbury Park, 413 Gateshead, 457?? 040?? 513 'Severn' Old Oak Common, 407 Gateshead. None of these on the sleeper service but they worked in so may have worked it later.
Given the wide range of sheds involved who made the decisions as to which particular 47 went on a trek to Scotland? Was it a case of grabbing anything that arrived at Crewe and "borrowing" it and sending it north? Or was there a central decision centre instructing sheds what to provide? And what happened about servicing? If an out-of-area loco needed servicing while in Scotland was it done there or was it worked home?
Springs Branch
Established Member
It looks like the overall passenger numbers were healthy enough at the end of the 1970s* to warrant running a Relief Euston - Stranraer train on Friday nights right through summer. Presumably the relief was seats only, without sleepers.
One quirk of this - the down relief was booked for a Class 25 forward from Carlisle.
See 1S84 in the attached extract from May 1979 - May 1980 Working Timetable (1S06 was the regular Stranraer sleeper).
It seems unusual that a Type 2 loco would be specified like this for a passenger service in the timetable. Presumably the train got a bit of extra help on its way to Stranraer - or another loco change somewhere like Ayr.
[EDIT] * I wonder how much the patronage of the Euston / Stranraer trains (in beds and seats) was boosted after BR cancelled the Sealink Heysham/Belfast route in 1975?
Certainly the Heysham - Belfast sailings had quite a number of connecting 'boat trains' through the early 1970s - from Euston (including reliefs at holiday times), Manchester Vic (The Belfast Boat Express), Leeds and Birmingham. The timing of the Heysham ferries and shorter rail distances never required sleepers, of course.
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Western Lord
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When the Port Road closed the sleeper was diverted via the Mauchline-Ayr line, not via Kilmarnock, which came later (mid 1970's?).
It is remarkable how operating practices have evolved. Never mind mere servicing. Back in the steam era, Stranraer had the capability to undertake major work (including changing boilers) to save having to send locos back to St Rollox for overhaul.