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Cancellations on Blackpool South line on Sundays

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chrisp37

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I am aware that Northern has staffing issues on Sundays which I understand affect the North West in particular (although I don't know any of the details). But why does it seem that the Blackpool South line is disproportionately affected by this issue (if indeed it is, it just seems that way)? The Blackpool South line now has a 2 hourly service instead of an hourly service on Sundays, which I understand is in response to the staffing issues, but even with the halving of services Northern don't appear to be able to run the full timetable most Sundays. Trains are frequently replaced by buses at relatively short notice, which is obviously better than leaving passengers stranded, but the bus is a lot slower so will mean anyone wanting to meet a particular train at Preston is likely to miss it.

Are these trains more likely to be cancelled because of the availability of the bus replacement hence where staff numbers are limited Northern decide it's preferable to run services where no bus service is readily available?

On the other hand, and again this is just my impression, Sunday cancellations from Blackpool North don't seem to be so bad at the moment (at least compared to a couple of years ago). Also, cancellations Monday to Saturday on the Blackpool South line seem to be less common now. So not all bad news.
 
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Bletchleyite

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I would think they are more likely to bustitute minor lines where you only need one bus and where the bus can keep rail timings or close to them, yes. It makes a lot of sense. See also the Marston Vale or Conwy Valley.
 

scrapy

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Northern not having a traincrew depot at Preston or anywhere on that route, probably means Blackpool South is more likely to be cancelled.

.
 

GordonT

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Are these trains more likely to be cancelled because of the availability of the bus replacement hence where staff numbers are limited Northern decide it's preferable to run services where no bus service is readily available?
Probably more to do with the Blackpool South service being more self-contained and therefore much easier to cancel its crew diagrams than the variety of services which cover Blackpool North.
 

david l

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I am aware that Northern has staffing issues on Sundays which I understand affect the North West in particular (although I don't know any of the details). But why does it seem that the Blackpool South line is disproportionately affected by this issue (if indeed it is, it just seems that way)? The Blackpool South line now has a 2 hourly service instead of an hourly service on Sundays, which I understand is in response to the staffing issues, but even with the halving of services Northern don't appear to be able to run the full timetable most Sundays. Trains are frequently replaced by buses at relatively short notice, which is obviously better than leaving passengers stranded, but the bus is a lot slower so will mean anyone wanting to meet a particular train at Preston is likely to miss it.

Are these trains more likely to be cancelled because of the availability of the bus replacement hence where staff numbers are limited Northern decide it's preferable to run services where no bus service is readily available?

On the other hand, and again this is just my impression, Sunday cancellations from Blackpool North don't seem to be so bad at the moment (at least compared to a couple of years ago). Also, cancellations Monday to Saturday on the Blackpool South line seem to be less common now. So not all bad news.
It's all over the west side. The staffing issue is conductors not drivers.
For example on a Sunday Liverpool-Blackpool N is 2 hourly whilst Southport-Manchester is (allegedly) 2 hourly, but all it takes is for the one or two conductors (on overtime) not to appear and the gaps easily get to 4 hours or longer. Usually gets better around the approach to Christmas when more money is needed............
There are some lines that don't have a Sunday service, indeed despite electrifying and spending over £100m on the Wigan Station Junc-Lostock Junc line, there hasn't been an electric or indeed any service on that line for about 18 months - bus replacements between Wigan and Bolton.
And no-one in authority (whether that be Northern, TfGM or even Andy Burnham) seems capable of doing anything about it.
 

Geeves

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Blackpool N also has a lot of staff on TPE contacts from the days when the station was served by said TOC who have different conditions for Sunday work. Ex Tpe staff don't sign Blackpool S.
 

davehsug

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Stoke to Manchester hasn't had a Northern Sunday service for over a year, leaving every intermediate station except Macclesfield, with no service at all.
 

Hugo3000

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Northern not having a traincrew depot at Preston or anywhere on that route, probably means Blackpool South is more likely to be cancelled.

.
That's irrelevant tbh as there's traincrew depots at Blackpool North and Blackburn who sign the route. However there is no appetite/funds to pay the guards to give up their days off to work these trains.
 

GordonT

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........ there is no appetite/funds to pay the guards to give up their days off to work these trains.
Like "the poor" and taxes it seems that TOCs whose (poor) performance is contingent upon voluntary overtime will always be with us.
 

Mcr Warrior

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Stoke to Manchester hasn't had a Northern Sunday service for over a year, leaving every intermediate station except Macclesfield, with no service at all.
Surely Longport, Kidsgrove, Cheadle Hulme, Stockport, Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme are also all still rail-served on Sundays. Albeit not particularly frequently.
 

NorthernSpirit

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Surely Longport, Kidsgrove, Cheadle Hulme, Stockport, Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme are also all still rail-served on Sundays. Albeit not particularly frequently.
There are the Buxtons, but that's every two hours as well.
 

davehsug

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Surely Longport, Kidsgrove, Cheadle Hulme, Stockport, Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme are also all still rail-served on Sundays. Albeit not particularly frequently.
Apologies, I was thinking more about the Cheshire stations Between Kidsgrove & Cheadle Hume. It's still a very poor show.
 

Killingworth

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The reduced Sunday services currently running in the North West can be found from this page on Northern's website; https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/travel/amended-sunday-timetables

There are some big reductions, well over 30% in total? For a heavily subsidised TOC that will be bringing greater cost savings than likely lost revenue. If and when a deal can be nade to run all the missing trains the cost will be large.

At the same time Northern's largely diesel fleet will already be costing more for fuel than they will have expected only 6 months ago. TPE are warning of the extra costs they will have to bear with no increased subsidy to pay for it. Cut backs are being sought with a freeze on recruiting.

In the immediate future Northern will/would find it very difficult to operate a fully restored Sunday timetable due to these factors. Which is a disappointing thought for one using a line experiencing 33% cuts.
 

TUC

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It really is time for this, not just for the Blackpool South line but also for similar others, to become a high profile matter of public pressure. It is the only way the situation will change.
 

GordonT

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It really is time for this, not just for the Blackpool South line but also for similar others, to become a high profile matter of public pressure. It is the only way the situation will change.
And if no agency is able/prepared to commit to the additional funding to enable the full timetable to be reliably restored then perhaps it is better for "honest" timetables to be in place as a fixture rather than reliance on "ad hoc" arrangements?
 

TUC

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And if no agency is able/prepared to commit to the additional funding to enable the full timetable to be reliably restored then perhaps it is better for "honest" timetables to be in place as a fixture rather than reliance on "ad hoc" arrangements?
That would be the response of a failing business as opposed to a customer-responsive one. I presume the latter is a key aim of nationalisation.
 

scrapy

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That's irrelevant tbh as there's traincrew depots at Blackpool North and Blackburn who sign the route. However there is no appetite/funds to pay the guards to give up their days off to work these trains.
Yes but they have to get to Preston to work these trains. Sometimes they can be timed so they work services but a lot of the time they are travelling passenger which makes this route less efficient than others. Same reason Lancaster - Morecambe often gets the chop when short of traincrew.
 

Hugo3000

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Yes but they have to get to Preston to work these trains. Sometimes they can be timed so they work services but a lot of the time they are travelling passenger which makes this route less efficient than others. Same reason Lancaster - Morecambe often gets the chop when short of traincrew.
It is the lack of Sunday premium that is causing the cancellations at the moment - pass rides have little to do with it and taxis are used if required. If there was an adequate payment offered to conductors the jobs would be covered and the trains would run to a full Sunday timetable.
 

NorthernSpirit

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I still think a half way solution in regards to staffing would be for the eastern side crews to route learn the Blackpool South line so that the York to Blackpool North services can alternate with Blackpool South, thus providing each line with a two hourly service but still hourly to Blackpool. Likewise with the Buxton services, fill in the gaps by extending the Leeds to Huddersfield via Bradford service to Stalybridge, Stockport and Buxton - it'd give Buxton an hourly service rather than the two hourly one its got at the moment.

The only other option would be to busitute the section between Kirkham & Wesham and Blackpool South.
 

Flying Claret

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I still think a half way solution in regards to staffing would be for the eastern side crews to route learn the Blackpool South line so that the York to Blackpool North services can alternate with Blackpool South, thus providing each line with a two hourly service but still hourly to Blackpool. Likewise with the Buxton services, fill in the gaps by extending the Leeds to Huddersfield via Bradford service to Stalybridge, Stockport and Buxton - it'd give Buxton an hourly service rather than the two hourly one its got at the moment.

The only other option would be to busitute the section between Kirkham & Wesham and Blackpool South.
What happens to the blackpool north passengers in the hour that it no longer runs there, and goes to South instead?
 

Killingworth

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I still think a half way solution in regards to staffing would be for the eastern side crews to route learn the Blackpool South line so that the York to Blackpool North services can alternate with Blackpool South, thus providing each line with a two hourly service but still hourly to Blackpool. Likewise with the Buxton services, fill in the gaps by extending the Leeds to Huddersfield via Bradford service to Stalybridge, Stockport and Buxton - it'd give Buxton an hourly service rather than the two hourly one its got at the moment.

The only other option would be to busitute the section between Kirkham & Wesham and Blackpool South.
So if all lines that could be operated from the east side where would it help? I suspect the very idea would create logistical problems with rolling stock before east and west depots raised objections to losing and gaining all or part of each others duties. Bus substitution anywhere is a poor solution.

However continuing the 'temporary' removal of 40% of Northern's NW Sunday trains from their operated timetables (and even then some get cancelled) is no way to achieve Northern's 30 million extra journeys by 2030 aim. Put another way that's about 30% increase on now. It is achievable, with reliable and frequent trains.

The nettle has to be grasped. The 2024 attempt failed. The 2025 attempt failed. Northern was nationalised 6 years ago. Former Managing Director Nick Donovan used to say he was managing a volunteer railway. He didn't fix it. Can it be fixed?
 

Bletchleyite

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Can it be fixed?

Yes, I'm sure it can. But it will require the opening of wallets to pay a decent bung for bringing Sunday into the working week (either committed Sundays or, preferably, Sunday just as a normal rostered working day), something which is unpopular on already-heavily-subsidised Northern.

Some staff may not go for it even with sufficient extra money, but there's no reason you couldn't just get as many as you can onto such a contract, and every man has his price, as the saying goes.
 

Horizon22

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That would be the response of a failing business as opposed to a customer-responsive one. I presume the latter is a key aim of nationalisation.

Arguably it is more customer-responsive to have a pre-agreed timetable that works (even if reduced) and people can plan for rather than an ad-hoc timetable which might lead to multiple consecutive cancellations with short notice.

Obviously it's better to actually run a reliable Sunday service from a customer service perspective and bring Sundays into the working week, but as a short-term interim measure it is preferable seeing as there is no way without union commitment and suitable funding sourced to resolve the issue. And this is reliant on Treasury / DFT and isn't forthcoming.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Former Managing Director Nick Donovan used to say he was managing a volunteer railway. He didn't fix it. Can it be fixed?

It could be, but you have to "buy out" the sundays which is normally something like a 15-20% (1/7 additional days and then calculating premiums) on top, for 100% of staff where Sunday isn't in the working week through a contractual change. Whereas rather they would pay that for say 75-80% (as the overtime) and live with the cancellations.

This is - and always is every time it comes up on these forums - a simple economic argument and the governnment / DfT / Treasury have to put their money where there mouth is.
 

david l

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Very easy to answer that from London where it appears that funds can and are thrown at services there.
 

Ianigsy

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Disgraceful really that it’s still the situation -I’ve mentioned elsewhere that the Liverpool-Wigan service is barely usable on Sunday.

There’s a long standing feeling that St Helens and Knowsley are the poor relations where Merseytravel are concerned, and what amounts to about three trains every four hours between St Helens and Liverpool on a Sunday just really confirms it. In the meantime there’s a bus every ten minutes, which drops you in Liverpool One and costs £2 each way. It really does feel like heading back to a 1980s level of service.
 

Horizon22

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Very easy to answer that from London where it appears that funds can and are thrown at services there.

Hardly; some GWR drivers based at London Paddington have Sunday outside the working week and regularly have issues with staffing in Summer.

It’s a contractual issue which has constantly been kicked into the long grass.

But it is otherwise more cost effective and easier to provide public transport within or between large cities than across wider regions, that’s just geography.
 

pr1

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Disgraceful really that it’s still the situation -I’ve mentioned elsewhere that the Liverpool-Wigan service is barely usable on Sunday.

There’s a long standing feeling that St Helens and Knowsley are the poor relations where Merseytravel are concerned, and what amounts to about three trains every four hours between St Helens and Liverpool on a Sunday just really confirms it. In the meantime there’s a bus every ten minutes, which drops you in Liverpool One and costs £2 each way. It really does feel like heading back to a 1980s level of service.
Very similar to Blackpool South. As long as Stagecoach and Blackpool Transport offer reduced fares along the entire route, the vanishing railway service will not reclaim its customers easily.
 
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