TPE kicks woman and child off train

[465fan]

I'm just going to wade in because I can

I think people say it's "disgusting" because it suits them or their friends, or because they are taking part in selective gender discrimination and ageism (ie "oh it's a woman, how terrible").

What I want people to remember is that the rules are there to ensure that every person gets equal treatment - you must carry your railcard, or pay child / adult fare as appropriate; everyone should abide by it, and every guard, whether we call them jobsworth or not, should also remember to treat everybody fairly. She forgot her card, she needed to get off, and I am sure he was assisting this woman with her luggage.

I support the Rail Staff who did make this decision.

 

[Anon Mouse]

I suspect all TOCS (my TOC certainly does) will have the same duty of care wordings about 'vulnerable people' not being ejected at unstaffed stations, the problem is...how do you determine a vulnerable person? Without opening the can of worms regarding that scroate in Scotland, but it came out in his defence that he was diabetic, this illness is not obvious so, how was the Guard to know this before he got the 'big man' to (rightfully so IMO) boot him off?

At the end of the day, everybody who purchases a Railcard agrees to the T&C's which are well publicised. If you do not have a valid railcard upon inspection you are required to buy a new one at the full fare as if no ticket was held. Being charged an XS is not a god given right, and failing that a UFN is not a god given right, and impossible to give if the address is false, which coupled to the fact that BTP can't be on hand at every station to deal with the 3 fails then sometimes ejection is the only option (and indeed the action BTP often belive is correct).

*Please note, as nobody knows the full facts about this Ladies case I am not accusing her of refusing to give details or false ones, I am just commenting in general.

 

[Tracky]

I once had a girl and child on a fare dodge. I did a UFN though I suspected the address was worthless...

The following week further down the line I found the girl pulling the same trick (but without the child). I took the address again, was different and BTP met the train. It was a good result but 100% luck and nothing else.

 

[142094]

I also think that many posters are forgetting the main point - that the woman was taken off the train - as far as I can see there is no argument over the fact that she had forgotten her railcard or not had a ticket - I'd expect her to be treated exactly the same as anyone else for this. However, the real issue is was she stranded and was this the best thing to do?

 

[Batman]

Well I don't think the Equalities Act would be an issue at all.

However I'd hope that all TOCs would have something like "In the case of a ticketing irregularity, you must not leave a lone woman and child at an unstaffed station. Instead they should be asked to leave the train at the next staffed station." - with perhaps it saying "vulnerable people (such as those with disabilities or women with children who are travelling alone)" in their staff instructions.

But then we'd be in a situation where TOC's believe it's ok for people to travel without tickets, and I thought the TOC's duty of care towards them would have ended as soon as the staff member found out they were breaching the conditions of carriage. Although I fully understand why people think that it may be unethical to leave a lone woman with a small child at an unstaffed station, but I don't believe the woman should have to take responsability for her decision to knowingly board a train without a valid ticket. And then there's the totaly seperate question as to whether a woman with a child should be treated seperatly from any other passenger in the same circumstances. My answer to that would be no, for the reasons I've given above.

Some might call it tough justice, some might call it social responsability, but it's a question we should all give some thought to.

 

[Anon Mouse]

I also think that many posters are forgetting the main point - that the woman was taken off the train - as far as I can see there is no argument over the fact that she had forgotten her railcard or not had a ticket - I'd expect her to be treated exactly the same as anyone else for this. However, the real issue is was she stranded and was this the best thing to do?

I fail to see how she was 'stranded' regardless of the ticket being to York or Yarm, those stations have an hourly frequency during most of the day. I don't think 'stranded' is the most appropiate word and CCTV and help points are located at all stations on both lines. 'stranded' seems a very melodramatic word in this case

 

[142094]

how do you determine a vulnerable person?

Again this shows the complexities and vagueness of some of the procedure documents.

 

[Batman]

But then we'd be in a situation where TOC's believe it's ok for people to travel without tickets, and I thought the TOC's duty of care towards them would have ended as soon as the staff member found out they were breaching the conditions of carriage. Although I fully understand why people think that it may be unethical to leave a lone woman with a small child at an unstaffed station, but I don't believe the woman should have to take responsability for her decision to knowingly board a train without a valid ticket. And then there's the totaly seperate question as to whether a woman with a child should be treated seperatly from any other passenger in the same circumstances. My answer to that would be no, for the reasons I've given above.

Some might call it tough justice, some might call it social responsability, but it's a question we should all give some thought to.

That should be 'But I do believe the woman should have to take responsability for her decision'.

Sorry, typing error.

 

[Anon Mouse]

oh and I also have witnessed BTP take a guy off a train with a toddler in his care and arrest him for a football related offence, I wonder if the Police's actions would be thought of as disgusting or unethical?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Again this shows the complexities and vagueness of some of the procedure documents.

and that can be a problem when staff have to explain their actions. In addition a disabled/elderly/parent with child can cause trouble, can attack staff, can faredodge and be generally anti-social. A persons percived vunerablity does not make them immune to rules, bylaws or civil law.

 

[CarterUSM]

So is it policy across all TOCs not to kick passengers off trains at un-staffed stations at night? Or is it at the discretion of the conducter?

Well it is in my old ticket examiners handbook. Though just the unmanned part, nothing about night.

 

[185]

I regularly deal with fare dodgers with kids in tow, often getting complaints of "Oh leave her alone, she's a mother....etc" in my view behaving like that and hoping to use the poor child as an excuse amounts to abuse.

 

[Anon Mouse]

I regularly deal with fare dodgers with kids in tow, often getting complaints of "Oh leave her alone, she's a mother....etc" in my view behaving like that and hoping to use the poor child as an excuse amounts to abuse.

I'm guessing your employers have to deal with the same problems as the Metro in Tyneside. Often the ones who get caught by the Inspectors are mothers with hundreds of kids!

 

[142094]

and that can be a problem when staff have to explain their actions. In addition a disabled/elderly/parent with child can cause trouble, can attack staff, can faredodge and be generally anti-social. A persons percived vunerablity does not make them immune to rules, bylaws or civil law.

Quite right - it is a difficult thing to handle - catch 22 really.

 

[Anon Mouse]

Quite right - it is a difficult thing to handle - catch 22 really.

Indeed I was verbally assulted by an old man with a walking stick yesterday because he got to platform as train was pulling away and a Collegue of mine has been attacked twice with a walking stick clobbered across his head

 

[Batman]

Quite right - it is a difficult thing to handle - catch 22 really.

It really is catch 22.

I think the best thing for conductors to do is to follow company procedure to the letter. That way they can defend themselves against possible legal action and if there is any public outcry and what's happened, the company takes the blame for it.

 

[transmanche]

However I'd hope that all TOCs would have something like "In the case of a ticketing irregularity, you must not leave a lone woman and child at an unstaffed station. Instead they should be asked to leave the train at the next staffed station." - with perhaps it saying "vulnerable people (such as those with disabilities or women with children who are travelling alone)" in their staff instructions.

But then we'd be in a situation where TOC's believe it's ok for people to travel without tickets,

I'm not sure how you infer that. It's a big jump from "make sure you only kick off a lone woman with a child at a staffed station" to "it's ok to travel without tickets"...

 

[EM2]

... her decision to knowingly board a train without a valid ticket...

This is another point that we can't be sure of. It seems that she couldn't find the railcard at the time of inspection. That doesn't mean she didn't have it when she boarded, simply that she couldn't find it.

 

[swj99]

It's one thing to be procedurally correct, and within the letter of the law, but the way things are viewed afterwards, and the public relations nightmare that often follows, are a different thing entirely.

I can't help thinking that sometimes it is actually better to let the customer be right, even if they might actually be wrong, and avoid the bad press and trial by facebook / media circus etc that seems to happen all to often nowadays. Bad news always travels faster, and is remembered for much longer than any other kind of news. It still amazes me that large successful companies sometimes still fail to realize this in situations that have the potential to cost them time, money and future business.

edited by bb21;

Please let me know via PM if you edit my posts. Thanks.

 

[4SRKT]

Yet another identikit thread with the same tired old posters on both sides posting the same tired old opinions that they have spouted time and time again every time a dispute over whether a TOC acted fairly or not crops up. It seems some here would defend a TOC even if a guard shot someone for not having a railcard ("no railcard = no travel ever again, I can't see what's so hard to understand about this"), while others would always assume the TOC to be heavy handed.

Do you people never tire of talking about the same thing over and over and over again? Do you have a stack of lines on a Word document that you just copy and paste, simply changing TOC names, stations, individuals etc? It'd be different if occasionally these threads ever changed anyone's mind, but they never do.

 

[142094]

Also probably shows that the increasing use of social media may be having a negative effect on image of TOCs - certainly nearly every Facebook page or Twitter account I see will have a lot more complaints than usual - no doubt due to the fact it is easier to complain this way rather than sending an e-mail/letter to Customer Services.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Yet another identikit thread with the same tired old posters on both sides posting the same tired old opinions that they have spouted time and time again every time a dispute over whether a TOC acted fairly or not crops up. It seems some here would defend a TOC even if a guard shot someone for not having a railcard ("no railcard = no travel ever again, I can't see what's so hard to understand about this"), while others would always assume the TOC to be heavy handed.

Do you people never tire of talking about the same thing over and over and over again? Do you have a stack of lines on a Word document that you just cut and paste, simply changing TOC names, stations, individuals etc?

and why should peoples opinions change? I have my view that hasn't changed for a good while, its not identikit its people not changing their opinions (on both sides) whats the problem? its a forum people discuss similar subjects time and time again so of course you will get the "same old arguments!" it does not make it any less relevant

 

[4SRKT]

Also probably shows that the increasing use of social media may be having a negative effect on image of TOCs - certainly nearly every Facebook page or Twitter account I see will have a lot more complaints than usual - no doubt due to the fact it is easier to complain this way rather than sending an e-mail/letter to Customer Services.

The public rarely in my experience publicise good service when they get it (I suppose they expect to get it if they've paid for it), so it's natural that social media will be full of negative stories.

 

[Batman]

The public rarely in my experience publicise good service when they get it (I suppose they expect to get it if they've paid for it), so it's natural that social media will be full of negative stories.

Exactly. You only need to go on the Facebook pages of any of the main supermarkets to see proof of that.

 

[142094]

The public rarely in my experience publicise good service when they get it (I suppose they expect to get it if they've paid for it), so it's natural that social media will be full of negative stories.

True - although in the past the matter would have been between Mr X and Customer Services, but now Mr X can tell the world at the same time through Facebook/Twitter etc.

 

[junglejames]

I'm just going to wade in because I can

I think people say it's "disgusting" because it suits them or their friends, or because they are taking part in selective gender discrimination and ageism (ie "oh it's a woman, how terrible").

What I want people to remember is that the rules are there to ensure that every person gets equal treatment - you must carry your railcard, or pay child / adult fare as appropriate; everyone should abide by it, and every guard, whether we call them jobsworth or not, should also remember to treat everybody fairly. She forgot her card, she needed to get off, and I am sure he was assisting this woman with her luggage.

I support the Rail Staff who did make this decision.

1- Everybody can get equal treatment without chucking people off trains. You dont need to get off just because you forgot a railcard.
2- You can support someone without knowing the full facts? Not bad. Staff can be just as wrong as passengers at times.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Can you read the destination clearly? It looks like it could be York, but it could also be Yarm. If it's Yarm then possibly the first conductor missed the railcard requirement for the ticket by the time he/she checked the reservation coupon.

Its York.

 

[Anon Mouse]

The point is people only have one side of the story. For all we know the passenger refused to pay, refused details (The passenger already had the first fail - no valid ticket). Normally the '3 fails' results in BTP but they can't always get to the train or station where incident has happened and often the BTP action in '3 fails' can be to eject the passenger from the train.

We don't know, how the lady conducted herself. For all we know she might have been getting abusive, threatning etc. Yes the Conductor may of acted incorrectly but I doubt this is the case as there is no mention of any action taken against the Conductor and belive me, TOC's are quick to come down like a ton of bricks on staff who have not done anything wrong after a complaint let alone somebody who has acted incorrectly.

I do have a suspicion that she has 1) complained to the TOC, 2) Took it up with passenger focus and has not been satisfied with the response. Consequently it seems she is bombarding the Facebook page of the TOC in question (possibly jepordising any further investigation) with her dis-satifaction and atracting other posters in whipping up a storm.

I have no evidence on my suspicion, its just a thought and everyone else replying on this thread has no evidence to back either side up.

However, the facts remain that as she had 'forgotten' her Railcard she was not entitled to the discount and therefore her ticket was invalid.

 

[bluenoxid]

Also probably shows that the increasing use of social media may be having a negative effect on image of TOCs - certainly nearly every Facebook page or Twitter account I see will have a lot more complaints than usual - no doubt due to the fact it is easier to complain this way rather than sending an e-mail/letter to Customer Services.

The great thing about social media is not only do you get the complaint in public, your response can be in public too. So you can explain why you cannot do that or why their responses are unreasonable.

Tell me. Who looks better?

Arriva

http://www.fixmytransport.com/campaigns/install-a-passenger-ramp-at-whitchur

First

http://www.fixmytransport.com/campaigns/have-evening-services-run-same-route

Arriva

http://www.fixmytransport.com/campaigns/replace-the-shelters-at-abergele-and

Transport for London

http://www.fixmytransport.com/campaigns/improvements-to-157-bus-route

Arriva won't engage
First and TfL engage

First rule of Social Media is to go where your customers are and provide them with open, honest communications. You have got to take the bashing too but the ability to quickly sort out issues and for people to see results is so much more beneficial.

 

[SS4]

The great thing about social media is not only do you get the complaint in public, your response can be in public too. So you can explain why you cannot do that or why their responses are unreasonable.

Tell me. Who looks better?

Arriva

http://www.fixmytransport.com/campaigns/install-a-passenger-ramp-at-whitchur

First

http://www.fixmytransport.com/campaigns/have-evening-services-run-same-route

Arriva

http://www.fixmytransport.com/campaigns/replace-the-shelters-at-abergele-and

Transport for London

http://www.fixmytransport.com/campaigns/improvements-to-157-bus-route

Arriva won't engage
First and TfL engage

First rule of Social Media is to go where your customers are and provide them with open, honest communications. You have got to take the bashing too but the ability to quickly sort out issues and for people to see results is so much more beneficial.

The problem is that social media is neither fair nor unbiased and favours the individual. This woman rants on facebook (undoubtedly omitting key details that imply she is as fault) and this one-sided rant cannot be dealt with by the TOC because of data protection so it looks even more one sided and this is before you get the ignorant comments.

Customer expectations are too far divorced from reality these days. They want an immaculate service for free.

 

[benk1342]

There's nothing in NRCoC saying a passenger can be removed from a train mid-journey for not having a ticket, unless you think the clause relating to nuisance dogs or passengers with unacceptable behaviour being removed from train applies. Therefore, the police could put the passenger back on the train because the operator had no right to remove them in the first place.

Isn't the train private property, so if you are travelling without a ticket you are trespassing and can be ejected? Or do trains have some kind of special status because of their public function?

 

[bluenoxid]

You will get screwed on social media anyway, so either engage or get shafted.