Bus driver jailed for mowing down road user he argued with

[swj99]

Using a vehicle as a weapon should only be done as an absolute last resort, and certainly never in anger. The driver is lucky he didn't kill someone.

 

[madannie77]

A big part of the problem is that many cyclists have no idea drivers of large vehicles can actually see - and some of them just assume that they can be seen wherever they are.
Whether that was the case here, obviously, we don't know.

I recall hearing about some event in Edinburgh a few years back where one of the things was that cyclists could go and sit in the driver's seat of a bus to see just what the driver can and can't see in the mirrors.

The reverse of that is also a problem. Many drivers of vehicles (large and small) seem to have no idea of what it is like to cycle in busy built up areas, and might benefit from some time spent seeing it from the cyclist's viewpoint.

I agree that many cyclists do nothing to help themselves by their arrogance and disregard of the rules of the road, but many drivers also have the same attitudes.

 

[radamfi]

This incident would be unlikely to have happened in the Netherlands where there are comprehensive cycle paths (usually segregated) so cycles and motor vehicles don't mix very much.

 

[Ivo]

This incident would be unlikely to have happened in the Netherlands where there are comprehensive cycle paths (usually segregated) so cycles and motor vehicles don't mix very much.

A good point. Bristol is supposed to be Britain's premier Cycling City (ahead of even London and its Boris Bikes), so it is somewhat unlikely that the cyclist even needed to be on the road.

Still, at least he was on the road and not the pavement!

 

[northwichcat]

A good point. Bristol is supposed to be Britain's premier Cycling City (ahead of even London and its Boris Bikes), so it is somewhat unlikely that the cyclist even needed to be on the road.

There was no cycle lane on that road as of when the Google Streetview car went past. It looks like the CCTV started when the bus was stopped at the entrance/exit to the bus station. Also the lay by shown looks to be a drop off point for the magistrates court.

 

[GB]

Using a vehicle as a weapon should only be done as an absolute last resort, and certainly never in anger. The driver is lucky he didn't kill someone.

Have you actually read what you have typed??

 

[Deerfold]

I remember reading about this at the beginning of Deecmber took the BBC long enough.

Well they're reporting on the trial which has only just happened.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A good point. Bristol is supposed to be Britain's premier Cycling City (ahead of even London and its Boris Bikes), so it is somewhat unlikely that the cyclist even needed to be on the road.

Isn't that a bit like Tennis? Britain's 3rd best, 987th in the world. Is Bristol really that good for cycle routes?

 

[swj99]

Have you actually read what you have typed??

Yes.




.

 

[radamfi]

Isn't that a bit like Tennis? Britain's 3rd best, 987th in the world. Is Bristol really that good for cycle routes?

The English speaking countries have no idea about cycling, that is why they languish at the bottom of the world cycling league table.

http://hembrow.blogspot.com/2011/01/petrol-price-vs-cycling-rate-for-range.html

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I agree that many cyclists do nothing to help themselves by their arrogance and disregard of the rules of the road, but many drivers also have the same attitudes.

This is the problem that unfortunately is very true in Britain today.

 

[DaveHarries]

Sympathy to the cyclist in this case because he wasn't at fault.

I was driving to a language class one night and it was dark. I drew up outside the BBC in Bristol and indicated I was going to turn left. The junction was unlit, other than the traffic lights, due to roadworks that involved new streetlights. The traffic lights went green in my favour and I moved forward prior to making the left turn. I checked my mirrors and, seeing nothing, proceeded to make the turn.

Just before I completed the turn something thumped the back of my car. I stopped and looked out of my window to see a man on a bike. The cyclist proceeded to ask me if I had checked my mirrors - which I had - before telling me I shouldn't be on the road and then being thoroughly rude and abusive. The fact that he had neither helmet, nor bright clothing, nor lights on his bike, didn't seem to make a difference to him: when I raised with him that I couldn't see him for the lack of lights on his bike, etc. he said he didn't give a t***.

Then there was the cyclist on a shared pavement. I was in the cycle bit because of some oncoming pedestrians and a cyclist came up behind me. Instead of a ring of the bell and a polite "excuse me please", I was told to move my a*** off the cycle bit of the pavement. What did she think I was going to do? Walk through the pedestrians?!

I believe that changes need to be made in regards to laws imposed on cyclists. This is especially the case where I will stop - as I am supposed to do - at a red light, only to see a cyclist go straight through on the off chance that nothing will happen to them. Sometimes they do get knocked off as a result but they don't care because they know that, even though they passed through a red light, they will never get in trouble for it and the motorist involved will take all the flack. That is very wrong: where a cyclist goes through a red and is knocked off then the cyclist should, after treatment, be arrested for ignoring the red light. The motorist should not take flack in those circumstances. Where the cyclist is badly injured or dies, I sympathise with those they leave behind but where the cyclist has, for example, gone through a red light immediately prior to the accident I have no sympathy for the cyclist because, as I see it, the cyclist has sealed their own fate.

I should, at this point, say that I have never knocked off a cyclist and I have never had any kind of accident while out on the road. I also have had my licence 10 years and it has never had points.

Another thing that has got on my wick in the past is where a cyclist has gone through a red light under the noses of policemen who do nothing about it. That is something I have seen happen on more than one occasion.

I believe that:

1. Cyclists should be made to have a licence, like car drivers, that can be endorsed.

2. In relation to point 1, above, points should be given for going through red traffic lights, riding on non-shared sections of pavement without just cause, and other things besides. Upon acquisition of points, cyclists should have to pay a fine and, upon acquiring the maximum number of points, should be banned from cycling just as motorists can be banned from driving.

3. Cyclists should be made to pay road tax, have insurance and registration plates, with records recorded on a database in case they are photographed doing through a red light. It seems to me that a lot of red-light cameras don't include the cycle lanes (I have seen occasions where cyclists go through the red light without getting flashed by the camera).

4. If a cyclist rides in a manor, such as by going through a red light or being too far from the pavement without reasonable cause, that results in an accident then the cyclist must take some flack. At the moment the motorist has to take all the blame, which is very wrong indeed. Yes I do accept there are some idiot motorists out there and I see them daily as I deliver and collect cars for a living.

Dave

 

[jon0844]

What's worrying is how many cyclists genuinely don't know they have to abide by any rules. Of course, many do and just ignore them - but some people really do think (as they've never been told otherwise or had any training) they can just ride however they like, and swap from road to pavement to cycle lane to train platform as they so wish. A pedestrian that one day decides to cycle for a multitude of reasons, who will tell them otherwise? Halfords? The bike shop run by the man who thinks cycling is making a political statement and you're out to stick it to the man (the motorist)? The work colleague that got no training either, and thinks it's amazing how you can jump lights and weave around people?

I stop short of requiring a bike to pay VED, or be registered, but I do think some compulsory training would be a good idea.

Given we live in a society where we need to spend a fortune to protect against people ignoring red lights and stepping on to a railway line, how come we let anyone on a bike and onto fast moving roads? We do have a weird sense of priorities at times.

Cyclists should also have insurance and be open to legal action if they cause accidents or injury, and continue to get fined heavily by police for jumping lights, cycling the wrong way down one way streets (a sure favourite of cab drivers on London, I'm sure - who are probably now used to the risk of oncoming collisions with bikes) and racing on the pavement (don't walk along Embankment without being on guard the whole time!).

 

[90019]

Sympathy to the cyclist in this case because he wasn't at fault.

Considering what we've heard about what happened prior to this, I don't think the cyclist exactly helped himself.

The majority of your post was quite good, but it went downhill - these two points in particular.

3. Cyclists should be made to pay road tax

I take it you're aware that the tax band a bicycle would be in is the £0 one, right?

or being too far from the pavement without reasonable cause

Presumably you don't cycle?

The things you suggest are a nice idea, but are rather impractical in practice. What's really needed is more enforcement of the current laws and the blatant flaunting of them by some cylists. I would be in favour of some sort of mandatory training for cyclists though, because of the sheer number who go out on the roads with seemingly no idea of anything going on around them. One thing I'm not looking forward to about driving buses is the cyclists who cut up the inside, where you can't see them.
I think the main thing that needs to be drilled into all cyclists is that you never cut up the inside of anything in traffic, especially HGVs and buses, because the driver most likely can't see you.
I recall seeing a map with all of the data for cyclists injured and killed round London, and nearly all of the deaths and a lot of the injuries were from people cycling up the inside of large vehicles turning left and subsequently getting run over.

 

[radamfi]

If we were in the Netherlands, the whole issue of whether cyclists should be well behaved would not arise. They have deliberately engineered out conflict between motorists and cyclists.

See the latest blog on http://hembrow.blogspot.com for a view of this incident from a British ex-pat now living in Assen, where over 40% of trips are by bike. Cyclists have their own cycle signals so there is no reason to go through red lights. In Assen, cyclists have their own 4m wide segregated paths.

Unfortunately, Britain seems to be even more ignorant about how to do cycling properly (even though the method of how to do things properly is very close, just across the North Sea) than they are about integrated public transport.

The fact we are even talking about the behaviour of cyclists means we are doing something wrong.

 

[jon0844]

Even if we had specific traffic lights for cyclists here, they'd likely be ignored. Don't forget, I am sure that the same attitude railway staff (and shop workers, and the police etc) experience every day from the 'what are you going to do about it?' brigade, and those who have no respect for others, is what we see on the streets.

There's grant money to facilitate the construction of cycle paths here, but there's no joined up thinking. There are plenty of cycle routes that don't properly join up and have huge gaps at precisely the locations where they're needed most. That's because that would require major work, rather than just slapping paint on a pavement and a few tactile paving slabs. A total waste of time in most cases.

What's more, where it's easiest to create cycle lanes, these are the places that probably have far fewer cyclists anyway.

 

[radamfi]

Even if we had specific traffic lights for cyclists here, they'd likely be ignored. Don't forget, I am sure that the same attitude railway staff (and shop workers, and the police etc) experience every day from the 'what are you going to do about it?' brigade, and those who have no respect for others, is what we see on the streets.

There's grant money to facilitate the construction of cycle paths here, but there's no joined up thinking. There are plenty of cycle routes that don't properly join up and have huge gaps at precisely the locations where they're needed most. That's because that would require major work, rather than just slapping paint on a pavement and a few tactile paving slabs. A total waste of time in most cases.

What's more, where it's easiest to create cycle lanes, these are the places that probably have far fewer cyclists anyway.

If you look at Dutch cycle lights, you can see that there is no reason to disobey them as you normally don't wait long. Cycle traffic lights often even turn green when you approach. Right turning cyclists don't normally have to wait at all. Roundabouts are even better as there is usually a segregated path the whole way around and cyclists don't have to stop as they get priority over all the entry roads.

Have a look at the videos on http://hembrow.blogspot.com to see what I mean. I thought I knew everything I needed to know about proper cycle provision but after each video I saw so many subtle intricacies that I was sometimes left jaw dropped.

I wouldn't confuse what passes for cycle paths/lanes in the UK as proper cycle paths, certainly by Dutch definitions.

The only acceptable way to process is to copy the Dutch standards exactly, no compromises. The good news is that you don't have to think, the Dutch have done the thinking for us.

That 'grant money' is way too low to build Dutch style infrastructure. They spend €30 per person per year on cycling in the Netherlands. That isn't actually that much and is a tiny proportion of the DfT's budget.

 

[jon0844]

I really do think we have a different mentality here, but I'd love to be proved wrong.

I spend loads of time in Sweden and since I was a kid, I can see how cyclists have begun to break more rules and get more aggressive there in recent years. It's not a case of simply designing things so people won't have any need to break the law, as people should respect the law no matter what.

There are loads of reasons to want to cycle, but doing it to prove a point shouldn't be one of them. I think we have far too many people here that think that way, while in mainland Europe it's just a cheap and practical method of transport.

 

[radamfi]

The main difference is that there is a 'them and us' thing regarding cycling i.e. cyclists are considered to be a distinct group of people in the UK, whereas in the Netherlands almost everyone is a cyclist, and almost all motorists are also cyclists.

By the way, cycling is not uniformly good across mainland Europe. France is almost as bad as the UK, despite its fame for cycle racing. Italy and Spain are not that great either. Belgium is surprisingly poor given the cultural similarity to the Netherlands. Germany is quite good, much improved over the last 20 or so years, and Denmark is very good. But none of these countries come close to Dutch standards.

 

[chris89]

Apparntly the Cyclist banged on the Window and pulled the wiper blades on the bus. And also moving off to the middle of the road as the bus was overtaking him.

But what the Driver did is no way excusable going for and ramming a cyclist which could have seriously have injured him.

For cyclists what is sadly and disapointly becoming the norm, don't believe traffic lights etc do apply to them and will willingly run reds, go up the inside of Lorries and buses (Which to me is asking for a death wish)

3. Cyclists should be made to pay road tax, have insurance and registration plates, with records recorded on a database in case they are photographed doing through a red light. It seems to me that a lot of red-light cameras don't include the cycle lanes (I have seen occasions where cyclists go through the red light without getting flashed by the camera).

A Majority of Cyclists are car owners or motorcyclists though. Also how would you suggest that was policed though? As riding on pavements where there isn't a cycle path is a big enough problem and nothing is done about that though.

For myself when i have cycled about (Fully law abiding) the most what can be called uncaring other road users are Bus drivers in my experience, when i lived in Somerset, a single lane bridge, i was all ready on it in the middle of the road as to be seen, a bus didn't stop and just kept driving at me, to make me go into the verge of the road.

The other road users that are the most aware of Cyclists (And Motorcyclists) Seem to be Lorry and Tractor drivers, as long as you are not stupid and go up the inside of them.

Chris

 

[radamfi]

Britain used to have a big cycling culture until the 1950s when cycling went into steep decline due to the danger from motor vehicles. The Netherlands also had a big decline in cycling at this time as cyclists had to share the roads with cars. The Netherlands were following similar car-orientated policies as the UK until the 1970s. They had few cycle paths. Cycle deaths were very high, like the UK today. They only decided to change their ways after the oil shocks of the early 1970s.

See the video on this page for the brief historical background of the Dutch success in developing cycling, including the dark days before the 1970s:

http://www.dutchcycling.nl/

Since then, they have built a comprehensive nationwide network of QUALITY cycle paths. So cycle deaths are now lower than they were in the 1950s when there were hardly any cars around.

 

[transmanche]

Another thing that has got on my wick in the past is where a cyclist has gone through a red light under the noses of policemen who do nothing about it.

Many cyclists will argue that jumping red lights can actually be safer. A cyclist has a much better view of the road than a motorist. And there have been studies examining whether the fact that the number of female cyclists being killed on the road is down to the fact that men are more likely to jump red lights than women.

Yes, there are some daft cyclists out there. I am annoyed when I see cyclists without lights at night. But it cuts both ways. It's just as shocking to see the number of motorists who don't know the rules of the road. For example those who believe that it's wrong for cyclists to be riding;

too far from the pavement without reasonable cause

... because they don't know that a cyclists is just as entitled to a traffic lane as a car - and cycling in the middle of a lane is actually the 'primary riding position'.

Or those who ignore advance stop lines (allowing cyclists to get in front and be seen, rather than being stuck in a blind spot) or believe that cycle lanes are their own personal parking spaces.

Or those who pull out from/turn into junctions without appreciating the speed of an approaching cyclist.

I started cycle commuting at the age of 37, after being a motorist for 20 years. Before hitting the road, I bought and read Cyclecraft. It opened my eyes. Not only should all prospective cyclists read it, but motorists should do too. Reading it and cycling has made me a better driver, as I'm far more conscious of cyclists and the need to give them sufficient room. Even just simple things like making eye contact when at junctions, so the cyclist knows that I have seen them.

For the record, when cycling I wear a hi-vis jacket and have bright lights front & rear, I don't jump red lights [*] and I do adopt the primary riding position where appropriate in order to ensure that other vehicles do not come too close. And I won't necessarily wait in the gutter at traffic lights, I'll hold that primary riding position at traffic lights, where I feel safer by doing so.


[*] With one exception. If a pedestrian crossing has no pedestrians near it and I'm cycling uphill, then I may cycle through a red light if it is safe to do so - purely so as not to lose momentum. But I do this only because as a cyclist, I have a much better view (both sight and sound) of the crossing.

 

[90019]

Many cyclists will argue that jumping red lights can actually be safer. A cyclist has a much better view of the road than a motorist. And there have been studies examining whether the fact that the number of female cyclists being killed on the road is down to the fact that men are more likely to jump red lights than women.

Of all the junctions around me that I use (pretty much the whole of the North side of Edinburgh and plenty of the South side too), there is only a single junction where it is safer to jump the red light, and yet I regularly see cyclists jumping reds at many junctions, and on quite a few occasions have seen near misses with pedestrians.

It would be a bit of a pain to set up, but I think a period of mandatory training before being allowed to cycle on the roads should be mandatory for everyone once they reach a certain age, ideally it could be done in schools like the cycling proficiency was - if you don't have it you walk the bike to the next off road cycle path.

 

[jon0844]

I am sure cyclists have just convinced themselves and others that breaking the rules is safer, to justify to themselves that they're doing nothing wrong.

There may be some merit to going early against red, but no reason on a pedestrian crossing (or a junction with pedestrians crossing) and I wonder if these people also believe the argument that it's often safer not to wear a seatbelt?

Someone creeping through lights is also a lot less dangerous than the cyclists that do so at speed, sometimes clipping pedestrians or their property when doing so. If they wish to take on a car/bus/lorry on a junction then that's their lookout as they'll probably lose. On a crossing, they'll probably do me more harm.

 

[Greenback]

I am sure cyclists have just convinced themselves and others that breaking the rules is safer, to justify to themselves that they're doing nothing wrong.

There may be some merit to going early against red, but no reason on a pedestrian crossing (or a junction with pedestrians crossing) and I wonder if these people also believe the argument that it's often safer not to wear a seatbelt?

Someone creeping through lights is also a lot less dangerous than the cyclists that do so at speed, sometimes clipping pedestrians or their property when doing so. If they wish to take on a car/bus/lorry on a junction then that's their lookout as they'll probably lose. On a crossing, they'll probably do me more harm.

I was quite annoyed this morning, when, on stepping on to a pedestrian crossing just after the green man lit up, a cyclist came hurtling around the corner and almost mowed me and a couple of other people down.

I used to be very pro cyclist but there are now too many inconsiderate ones that whizz past you on the pavement, as well as ignoring red lights and pedestrian crossings.

 

[radamfi]

A major part of the reason why British cyclists seem to be lawless is that the demographic of cyclists in the UK is overwhelmingly male, young and fit. This proportion of the population is obviously more likely to participate in risk taking activities. Other sections of society are scared of cycling due to the perceived danger. The stereotypical style of car driving by the cycling demographic (young males) is also noteworthy.

That is totally different to the Netherlands where cycling is carried out by almost everyone. Young children from aged 8 go to school by bike by themselves. Teenagers go everywhere by bike and don't need to be ferried around by 'Dad's Taxi' in the evening, giving them a freedom denied to 21st century British youth. People cycle well into old age, often getting his and hers electric bikes at retirement. Finally, unlike the UK, Dutch cycling is well participated by both genders. Indeed, there is a slight majority of trips made by women.

 

[185]

FirstGroup's insurers paid me £3200 when one of their vehicles driven by a driver with very little English pushed me up onto a kerb in Manchester City Centre. Not only was it all caught on CCTV, there were 2 staff from the PTE and a police officer stood on the kerb watching! Any other bus company, I may have let it go

 

[jon0844]

A major part of the reason why British cyclists seem to be lawless is that the demographic of cyclists in the UK is overwhelmingly male, young and fit. This proportion of the population is obviously more likely to participate in risk taking activities. Other sections of society are scared of cycling due to the perceived danger. The stereotypical style of car driving by the cycling demographic (young males) is also noteworthy.

That is totally different to the Netherlands where cycling is carried out by almost everyone. Young children from aged 8 go to school by bike by themselves. Teenagers go everywhere by bike and don't need to be ferried around by 'Dad's Taxi' in the evening, giving them a freedom denied to 21st century British youth. People cycle well into old age, often getting his and hers electric bikes at retirement. Finally, unlike the UK, Dutch cycling is well participated by both genders. Indeed, there is a slight majority of trips made by women.

You're doing a fantastic job of promoting Dutch cycling, and I do wish we could do the same here. Just as when driving on the autobahns in Germany, I wish we could have them here (no limits and a better awareness and respect for speed, as well as slower motorists).

The problem is that we've got a certain mindset that means loads of things that work just fine abroad will never work here unless society changes in a big way.

 

[transmanche]

I am sure cyclists have just convinced themselves and others that breaking the rules is safer, to justify to themselves that they're doing nothing wrong.

Even when the evidence suggests otherwise?

In an analysis for TfL, the Transport Research Laboratory studied 92 of the 108 cyclist fatalities in London between 2001 & 2006. Of those 92, 69 fatalities happened at a junction. Of those 69, 5 were as the result of the cyclist jumping a red light - 8 as a result of the cyclist being struck from the rear and 22 were as a result of an HGV/bus/coach turning left and striking the cyclist.

To put in crudely, as a cyclist you're at least 6 times more likely to die by stopping at a red traffic light compared to jumping the lights. (Yes, I know that's not a correct interpretation of the results, but hopefully you get what I mean.)

The TRL report's recommendations were:

1. Install/improve side guards on HGVs
2. Improve mirror configuration of HGVs
3. Raise awareness of cyclists by drivers
4. Improve driver training (to deal safely with cyclists)
5. Improve cycle training
6. Improve cyclists' conspicuity
7. Use of cycle helmets
8. Introduction of 20mph speed limit on residential roads and increased enforcement of existing speed limits

Most telling I think is their comments regarding recommendation no. 3

Raise awareness of cyclists by drivers.
There is a clear need for interventions to close the gap of opinion that road users hold of themselves and each other as being competent to be walking, riding and driving. These could take the form of education on the need for all road users to be more considerate of the needs of others and the skills required by each class of road user to complete their journey. More campaigns aimed at drivers in London to raise their awareness of pedal cyclists are needed. A review of the effectiveness of previous campaigns and literature, for example Transport for London (2008a); RoSPA/CEMEX (2006); London Cycling Campaign (2008) would inform on the focus and style of future campaigns. In particular, awareness initiatives for both drivers and cyclists need to continue to draw attention to the problem of collisions involving cyclists at junctions, especially those involving heavy goods vehicles turning left.​

 

[90019]

This really irritates me;

1. Install/improve side guards on HGVs
2. Improve mirror configuration of HGVs
3. Raise awareness of cyclists by drivers
4. Improve driver training (to deal safely with cyclists)

How about training the cyclists for once?
Rather than laying the blame on the drivers of large vehicles, who are trained, rather than the cyclists who have no compulsory training whatsoever.
Also, HGVs already have a load of mirrors on the n/s (newer ones have 3 or 4), but there will always be blindspots, as with any vehicle.

It seems that whenever there's a collision involving a bicycle and a large vehicle, the driver is automatically blamed, unless they can prove they weren't at fault.
Any half decent cyclist knows that you NEVER cycle up the inside of a large vehicle in traffic. To do so with one indicating left is just suicidal.

 

[radamfi]

The problem is that we've got a certain mindset that means loads of things that work just fine abroad will never work here unless society changes in a big way.

So do you think if Dutch standard cycle facilities were built in the UK, there wouldn't be much effect on cycle usage? British/American people who have moved to NL cycle.