LM and Northern may benefit from 317s released.

[Tim R-T-C]

Don't tell AVRUG, they complained enough about the 322s coming down because they are so 'old'.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

How do you know that London Midland won't open a base at piccadilly and take on surplus northern guards?

Well TPE, apparently under instruction from the DfT and as part of the North West electrification and route enhancements, are opening train crew depots in Liverpool and Preston shortly. Consultation with the unions has begun, although apparently the overall result will be an increase in the staff compliment.

 

[Aictos]

Because they spent enough time trying to get rid of the things in favour of the more powerful 321s. Corridor connections aren't much use in a DOO zone. How about, why don't we get the 321s an someone else get's lumbered with our 317s?

Also don't forget the 321s have more seating available then the 317s as the 317s have 291 seats per unit and the 321s have 299 seats per unit compared to 263 seats per 365 unit.

 

[Nym]

And that level of seating makes sod all difference to the peak capacity to the units

 

[Class377/5]

Incidentally are the new LM 350s going to be 350/3s? I thought they were going to have the same spec as the 350/2s and the 350/3s would be a revised spec for the TPE services.

Didn't Siemens state that the order was too small to have two different versions of the fleet for the money on the table so they are same spec? I've used the term 350/3 as that's what respected rail press have used.

All operators would like more stock. Being required to run more services does not always result in more stock being allocated - just look at the TPE franchise

True but that shouldn't stop a franchise from looking at expanding and making a decent case for getting additional investment.

And that level of seating makes sod all difference to the peak capacity to the units

Agreed. Or in the extreme case more seats = less capacity as people hate the 3+2 so more stand in less available room.

 

[northwichcat]

Didn't Siemens state that the order was too small to have two different versions of the fleet for the money on the table so they are same spec? I've used the term 350/3 as that's what respected rail press have used.

Not as far as I recall. I recall Siemens telling them to hurry up if they wanted units in service in 2013 because a small order will mean a small production line will be set up which will take longer per unit to procure.

The LM press release only mentions the TPE units have the revised internal layout:

Negotiations with the preferred supplier in respect of the units destined for the Manchester to Scotland service are likely to include certain interior design changes which reflect the longer distance journey patterns on this route.

http://www.londonmidland.com/news/l...n-midland-and-for-first-transpennine-express/

 

[Class377/5]

Not as far as I recall. I recall Siemens telling them to hurry up if they wanted units in service in 2013 because a small order will mean a small production line will be set up which will take longer per unit to procure.

The LM press release only mentions the TPE units have the revised internal layout:

Negotiations with the preferred supplier in respect of the units destined for the Manchester to Scotland service are likely to include certain interior design changes which reflect the longer distance journey patterns on this route.

http://www.londonmidland.com/news/l...n-midland-and-for-first-transpennine-express/

Ah thanks. Must have read an opinion then.

 

[Skimble19]

The Current "FCC" 317's and 321's will be available by 2018 anyway when the Thameslink stock is all delivered and the non-Thameslink services outer suburban services on the ECML are solely run by 365's (leaving 313's on the Moorgate services).

Why would anyone swap stuff around for a couple of years

I must admit I've heard the 365's will also be replaced.. shame really, they're by far my favourite class of EMU - I'll no doubt prefer them to these delightful replacements from Siemens..

 

[SprinterMan]

What is the current status of the 317/7s?
Are they all off-lease now?
Are they all stored or is one still lingering covering for an unreliable 317511?
Where are they stored?

 

[12CSVT]

What is the current status of the 317/7s?
Are they all off-lease now?
Are they all stored or is one still lingering covering for an unreliable 317511?
Where are they stored?

I don't suppose the absence of 317511 is such an issue now that Greater Anglia have 30 class 379s.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The LM press release only mentions the TPE units have the revised internal layout:

Negotiations with the preferred supplier in respect of the units destined for the Manchester to Scotland service are likely to include certain interior design changes which reflect the longer distance journey patterns on this route.

http://www.londonmidland.com/news/l...n-midland-and-for-first-transpennine-express/

Thank you for submitting this sourced information which has clarified that particular matter.

 

[Nym]

Agreed. Or in the extreme case more seats = less capacity as people hate the 3+2 so more stand in less available room.

The main difference with capacity in the peaks is door location, standing room on a 156 for example is much lower than on a 185 that is the same length, and about the same as on a 150, but is more comfortable to stand on a 150.

And if the production line makes 350/3s then the interior layouts can still be different, but I dowbt we'll see a mini buffet / shop and 6 car units for the TPE services

 

[34D]

Just to clarify here that we're only talking about the TP services from Manchester to Carlisle and beyond, up the WCML? Which I don't think actually cross the pennines at all.....?

And we're not talking about the possible electrification of Guide Bridge to Copley Hill and Neville Hill to Colton Jun?

If we do mean the services that First/Keolis operate up the WCML, could we refer to this as something other than transpennine please? As the pennines separate the wilderness that is Manchester and Lancashire from the most vibrant and best county in the whole country, it is most confusing.

 

[Nym]

Go for lancs triangle for the scheme and manc scot for the stock...?

 

[northwichcat]

I must admit I've heard the 365's will also be replaced.. shame really, they're by far my favourite class of EMU - I'll no doubt prefer them to these delightful replacements from Siemens..

The Guardian suggested that the 365s would be refurbished and put on North TPE after electrification. I hope not, unless they were referring to the additional Leeds-Manchester semi-fasts, as the introduction of those services should mean the North TPE services will carry less commuter traffic meaning a higher proportion of passengers will be long distance travellers.

 

[34D]

The Guardian suggested that the 365s would be refurbished and put on North TPE after electrification. I hope not, unless they were referring to the additional Leeds-Manchester semi-fasts, as the introduction of those services should mean the North TPE services will carry less commuter traffic meaning a higher proportion of passengers will be long distance travellers.

I don't give much credence to 'The Guardian' however I would say that the class 365s are a good train, and I would be interested to see how they fare on the pennine hills.

Would Leeds-Manchester semi fast be just the current Leeds Dewsbury Huddersfield Stalybridge Piccadilly, or some others as well? Would it be Northern or FTPE (or successors to either)?

 

[jon0844]

They accelerate very quickly, but I am not sure how they would work on steep hills.

The 365s are fantastic trains - anyone who got them would be very lucky. I'm sure they'd prove more reliable (and comfortable) than any new build train to replace them. The only thing they lack is air conditioning.

 

[northwichcat]

Would Leeds-Manchester semi fast be just the current Leeds Dewsbury Huddersfield Stalybridge Piccadilly, or some others as well? Would it be Northern or FTPE (or successors to either)?

Those stations plus 2 out of 4 of Slaithwaite, Marsden, Greenfield and Mossley. Exactly how 2 out of 4 will work is still be consulted on.

There's a high chance the franchises in the North will be reorganised so which routes will be in which franchise is something that's up in the air at the moment.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I still dont understand what they are planning for the services between staylybridge and huddersfield, somehow it doesnt feel like a fair way of doing it. Looking at the station i think 4 tracking through some of the station would be a better idea.

 

[IanXC]

The Guardian suggested that the 365s would be refurbished and put on North TPE after electrification. I hope not, unless they were referring to the additional Leeds-Manchester semi-fasts, as the introduction of those services should mean the North TPE services will carry less commuter traffic meaning a higher proportion of passengers will be long distance travellers.

Then North TPE long distance could use IEP electric units.

 

[LE Greys]

They accelerate very quickly, but I am not sure how they would work on steep hills.

The 365s are fantastic trains - anyone who got them would be very lucky. I'm sure they'd prove more reliable (and comfortable) than any new build train to replace them. The only thing they lack is air conditioning.

Well, they blow pretty much anything away on the climb out of King's Cross (1 in 107 at steepest). Just about the only things that ever matched them were Eurostars. And actually I quite like having the ability to open the windows whenever I like (except near Shepreth). However, I'd much rather have a main line unit on TPX rather than them. The IEP suggestion might work, or possibly an a.c. version of the 444 (as predicted for London-Norwich recently).

 

[David Goddard]

They accelerate very quickly, but I am not sure how they would work on steep hills.

The 365s are fantastic trains - anyone who got them would be very lucky. I'm sure they'd prove more reliable (and comfortable) than any new build train to replace them. The only thing they lack is air conditioning.

Agreed.

They would be ideal for the GW routes to Oxford and Newbury, in preference to the 319s that have been mooted for the line. The fleet size of forty sets would be about ideal too.

 

[34D]

So if I've got this right.... Hayes & Harlington to Oxford/Swindon/Newbury and also the little gap between Manchester and Wigan are being wired now (well, I mean schemes fully approved, and commencing shortly?) and at present those routes are planned to receive class 319s displaced by the new Thameslink units?

Liverpool-Leeds (via both Pic and Vic, I think) and Leeds-York may be wired in due course as a later project? Unit plans not known yet?

 

[LE Greys]

Agreed.

They would be ideal for the GW routes to Oxford and Newbury, in preference to the 319s that have been mooted for the line. The fleet size of forty sets would be about ideal too.

That's agreed there. If the units are to be displaced by the Thameslink stock replacement, all they need to do is make the fleet size big enough. Ideally, also make it big enough to replace the old 313s. The Networkers will do nicely out of Paddington. I wonder if the locals will think that these are the Turbos with their engines removed...

 

[Eagle]

So if I've got this right.... Hayes & Harlington to Oxford/Swindon/Newbury and also the little gap between Manchester and Wigan are being wired now (well, I mean schemes fully approved, and commencing shortly?) and at present those routes are planned to receive class 319s displaced by the new Thameslink units?

The "Lancs triangle" electrification includes Manchester to Liverpool via Earlestown (not Manchester to Wigan via Atherton; TPE to Scotland will be routed via Patricroft and Golborne Junction), Manchester to Preston, Liverpool to Wigan and Preston to Blackpool.


The GWML electrification is planned to extend to Bristol and Cardiff, not just Swindon.

 

[tbtc]

That's agreed there. If the units are to be displaced by the Thameslink stock replacement, all they need to do is make the fleet size big enough. Ideally, also make it big enough to replace the old 313s

I think 313 replacement ought to be tied to 507/508 replacement (which ought to be in the next five years)

 

[LE Greys]

I think 313 replacement ought to be tied to 507/508 replacement (which ought to be in the next five years)

Add to that 314s, 315s and any other stock of that age, perhaps including the 455s and 318s/320s. Basically, what BR tried to do with the PEP-based stock in the first place.

 

[David Goddard]

Clearly Thameslink and Crossrail will cause displacement of many units from the London area. Some of this stock still has life in it, others do not.

The Morgate - Welwyn/Hertford services are not part of Thameslink, but will become an even poorer relation once the new TL stock starts running alongside. By that time, the 313s will be 40 years old. Given that the journey time for these services is in the region of forty minutes, would a batch of 378s not be suitable? Assuming there are no gauging issues in the Moorgate tunnel then they would offer a step change from the 313s, which could be retired.

378s could also then be a viable alternative for Merseyrail. This could keep Derby works open for a good few years!

With Crossrail taking over the GE inners, the 315s will be spare. The last thing I heard was that these 1980 vintage sets could find their way to the Welsh Valleys if they get electrified.

The 317s/455s/318s (and definitely the 320s- only built 1990) still have a good deal of life left in them and so we need not consider their replacement until the end of the decade.

 

[34D]

The Morgate - Welwyn/Hertford services are not part of Thameslink, but will become an even poorer relation once the new TL stock starts running alongside. By that time, the 313s will be 40 years old. Given that the journey time for these services is in the region of forty minutes, would a batch of 378s not be suitable? Assuming there are no gauging issues in the Moorgate tunnel then they would offer a step change from the 313s, which could be retired.

Good idea. And arguably their 'standee' layout would offer more capacity for those journeys in the peaks too (notwithstanding that there is an hourly Moorgate-Letchworth via Hertford which is around 70 mins).

Mark 1 and 2 coaches go down the drain (test train, with a class 73) a couple of times a year, so if a class 378 conforms to the C1 profile it should be fine.

At one point, FCC had suggested/assumed that class 319s would go to operate these services, though as platforms are 6 coaches long they would need to loose the toilet coach.

 

[David Goddard]

At one point, FCC had suggested/assumed that class 319s would go to operate these services, though as platforms are 6 coaches long they would need to loose the toilet coach.

That would have been my first choice too, given they are already Dual Voltage. As you say, they would need shortening, and the full four car sets could probably be better used alsewhere.

Of course, if you take the TSOs from half (43) of the fleet, to use the 3 cars on the Northern City, you can then put them into the other 43 to create some useful 5 car sets.