Intercity Express Programme going ahead

[Nym]

It it was a truly free and enterprising rail industry then ABB would have kept York building Mk4s to replace Mk2s etc. and we'd be onto Mk5 or 6 by now, with a nice standardised haulage method. But it isn't, so we don't... So now someone needs to step in and say...

NO! This is the new standard, now build to it!

 

[swt_passenger]

...it seems to be a classic example of, what's the phrase, something about spoiling the ship for tuppence or something. I'm sure someone knows what it is...

"A hap'orth of tar"

(halfpenny worth)

 

[Schnellzug]

Indeed so. Up to a standard, not down to a price, is never something that's been a Government slogan, is it. So should we put up with everything having to be built down to a price because we should be grateful to the Government for providing it at all, or should the Government go away and let the manufacturers and the customers decide what is best suited for them, like in the airline or indeed any other industry? Is it just that costs of everything associated with the Railways are so astronomical that Governments always have to subsidise it? If that is so, does it have to be so? Are these costs so high because Government is involved? These are all, I think, perfectly good questions.

 

[HSTEd]

Good luck building LCHS that can get SP differentials on Liverpool-Norwich.
You run into the same problems I came up against running Voyagers down there.

LCHS with locomotive power units also can't use many MU differentials, being limited instead to "HST" differentials.

Additionally surely an EMU would only have "eight ellectrical cabinets" or wahtever if it had eight motor carriages.
Does any current British EMU have an 8 carriage formation of motor carriages? Even a 9 carriage Pendolino only has six.
Then there's the timetabling issue to consider, distributed traction is superior in acceleration and thus shortens journey times, it also permits tighter headways without resorting to the use of friction braking.

 

[Nym]

Well, I'm sure it would reduce costs if there was one standard type of LHCS for use in the UK, currently a carriage of an MU is costing between £1mil and £1.4mil, if we're building 2000-3000 of these, the cost will come down.

And as these will be type approved, there will be no need for an extensive testing programme every time a new order is made, or extended. The Boeing 737 something that is very sucsessful in the aviation industry because it's simple and un-complicated.

If something could be provided for use on UK rails, with a standardised electrical and coupling system where DBSOs and DVTs are available for either end driving, and the controls standard is either written, or compatable with say, different systems. but all stock compatable with all the systems that are specified.
The new 'UK Control Standard' providing reversing and power controls to/from locomotives, and other communications that are standardised such as PIS, Doors, Enviromental Controls etc. As well as some kind of communication system that can be used for 'non-standard comms'.
Maybe:
Traditional TDM (although this is pointless now as it's only 90s, 47s and 57s that use it, but it's a good use for the 90s, plenty of life left in them!)
AAR? It's rather common, but new diesel locomotives would be running the new UKCS system.

If the controls and control passthroughs can be standardised, using possibly a 3.3kV or 400V 3phase hotel power transmission along the units, keep it within the realm of as much standardised equipment as possible. Can internally balance phases without too much issue, just use as much 3ph stuff as possible for Air Con etc, and any 1 phase systems get balanced between R Y and B Phases.

Although 400V might not be high enough IMO, you'd be drawing a good 30A or so per carriage, so might be better off at 3.3kV (Also a standard voltage) and working down to 400V with a transformer in each coach.

Anyway, very off topic here, my point being, if you use standardised industrial and commercial equipment rather than having everything 'railway specialised' that isn't needed in a lot of cases, you can probably get the cost right down to about £600,000 per carriage, especially with a long guaranteed production run.

I don't think getting 3.3kV through an autocoupler is that bigger ask either (4 wire 3phase), use industry standard 3300:400 3phase transformers.

 

[HSTEd]

If the controls and control passthroughs can be standardised, using possibly a 3.3kV or 400V 3phase hotel power transmission along the units, keep it within the realm of as much standardised equipment as possible. Can internally balance phases without too much issue, just use as much 3ph stuff as possible for Air Con etc, and any 1 phase systems get balanced between R Y and B Phases.

Although 400V might not be high enough IMO, you'd be drawing a good 30A or so per carriage, so might be better off at 3.3kV (Also a standard voltage) and working down to 400V with a transformer in each coach.
----------
I don't think getting 3.3kV through an autocoupler is that bigger ask either (4 wire 3phase), use industry standard 3300:400 3phase transformers.

Also three phase electrics causes issues for electric locomotives, single phase is probably superior, the only reason three phase is still around in the UK is because the HSTs use it.

 

[Nym]

But is the inconvenience of an electro-galvonic or electro-mechanical-galvonic isolation for 3.3kV 3phase for the locomotives worse than the disadvantages of using a DC transmission line down the units?

Really should have considered we see 25kVAC 1ph at the locomotives... duhhhhhh...

Perhaps it could be better to use a part stabilised 1000V DC link down the length of the carriages and have power electronics generate any AC required, one wonders what couldn't live with modified sine wave AC (quazi-squarewave) rather then true sine wave...

We could use LED lighting, that doesn't care, might get some ****y harmonics but can live with that, 3ph Motor controllers for HVAC can run from DC Rails quite happily (At 4.2kV IIRC), domestic sockets for pax can run on modified sinewave, just stipulate as is done now, chargers only. Most motors can run off a PWM controlled from a DC rail nowadays, (or a 3leg invertor).

Problem with DC is the need for sometimes insanely thick wires, and it causes corrosion issues.
Problem with 3ph AC is a hefty lump of power electronics in each AC and DC Locomotive.

The question then I suppose, is where do you want the power electronics to live? Carriages or Locomotives?

If it's in carriages it's another unit to service (and I would have it as a separate unit that could be removed and replaced for servicing), if it's in locomotives it's more weight, but leccy locos don't weigh that much anyway.

 

[ChrisCooper]

But is the inconvenience of an electro-galvonic or electro-mechanical-galvonic isolation for 3.3kV 3phase for the locomotives worse than the disadvantages of using a DC transmission line down the units?

Really should have considered we see 25kVAC 1ph at the locomotives... duhhhhhh...

Perhaps it could be better to use a part stabilised 1000V DC link down the length of the carriages and have power electronics generate any AC required, one wonders what couldn't live with modified sine wave AC (quazi-squarewave) rather then true sine wave...

We could use LED lighting, that doesn't care, might get some ****y harmonics but can live with that, 3ph Motor controllers for HVAC can run from DC Rails quite happily (At 4.2kV IIRC), domestic sockets for pax can run on modified sinewave, just stipulate as is done now, chargers only. Most motors can run off a PWM controlled from a DC rail nowadays, (or a 3leg invertor).

Problem with DC is the need for sometimes insanely thick wires, and it causes corrosion issues.
Problem with 3ph AC is a hefty lump of power electronics in each AC and DC Locomotive.

The question then I suppose, is where do you want the power electronics to live? Carriages or Locomotives?

If it's in carriages it's another unit to service (and I would have it as a separate unit that could be removed and replaced for servicing), if it's in locomotives it's more weight, but leccy locos don't weigh that much anyway.

The Mk2s, 3s and 4s already run off a 1000v supply and then convert as required. Aircon Mk2s and 3s have motor alternators, Mk4s have static converters. The aircon equipment is identical between the HST Mk3s and the hauled Mk3s (and some of the aircon Mk2s), the difference is that the HSTs recieve 415v three phase direct from the powercars, the hauled stock gets it from the MA sets.

 

[Nym]

Could you unload something in the region of the required 7 - 15kVA per carriage through an auto coupler through without it melting? Jack it up past 3000V and you might have a chance.

And if I where to use DC transmission between carriages, it would be one lump of power electronics per carriage (in old terms, one MA per carriage).

 

[HSTEd]

While your at working out hotel supplies, USB standard sockets at the tables are probably a good idea, supplied with 5V DC for use in the new standardised charges that are taking over.

That allows the reduction in the inefficiencies associated with cheap "wall-warts" as the conversion equipment on the train would be the kind designed for near continuous use for 20 years, and you could probably get away with one per eight sockets or more.

Making the train more green-y, reducing air con load, and also providing additional sockets for gadget hungry younger travellers that are the future (a table of four could easily have eight devices plugged in, four laptops and four phones)

 

[Zoe]

And we may have even extended to Exeter from both Waterloo and Paddington.

There's little benefit in electirifying the route from Paddington/Bristol to Exeter unless you are going to start teminating a significant number of intercity services there. If most continue to run through to Plymouth then it would be quite an arbitary place to end the electrification.

 

[Nym]

Whatever happens, I'd still want to have the BS Plugs on the walls, under tables, where ever, unless a new LV standard socket comes out soon, you'll never be able to plug a laptop into a 5V DC supply, (considering most take in a supply of 19.6VDC at about 4A) don't need to supply much current to these wall sockets, say 6A each maximum and no more than say, 16, 32 or perhaps 48A for the whole carriage (if we're running a 3phase converted supply, balance it as 16A L-N on three circuits) then you're still needing to supply up to 11kVA just for that! Heating or HVAC would come in at about 15kVA for a unit, lighting is negligible, either way, I can't see providing 5V USB Based sockets as a solution, they just don't provide enough power (300mA@5V for USB2, 1A@5V for USB3)

To put things in perspective, 11kVA would need one of them 1.5inch Red plugs for 3 phase (16A), or the 2.5 inch ones for 1phase (32A Blue). 10 carriage rake is going to be a pretty big plug to take 160A per line at 400V, or at 1000VDC you'd be drawing around 11 - 20A per carriage total, these couplers get big pretty quick, ramp it up to 3000VDC or 3.3kV 3p AC then you get back into the tens for a whole rake, would need more insulation, but insulation at that voltage is cheaper than big cables at lower voltages.

 

[junglejames]

I keep banging my head against a wall about this - but then I get classed a dinosaur!

Is it beyond the whit of man to actually improve on the existing designs we have? Can we not make a fast, comfortable, quiet eco friendly train? Or will we get a sub voyager knock off piece of cr*p?

The silly thing is, diesel locos are always more eco friendly. But you have a handful that try and claim voyagers etc use less fuel. Even a 47 and 7/8 coaches uses less fuel than an 8 car voyager. But its to be expected. Physics tells you that 1 loco is going to be more economical than 7 or 8 powered coaches.
Its only when you get to the electrics that there is very little difference. You still get those claiming EMUs are better, but thats only when they compare a fantasy EMU (ive seen someone try and explain that a pendy could be ultra amazing if you improved it for heavens sake) to an 80s electric loco. Compare like for like, and there will be next to no difference. Unpowered coaches will still be quieter though.

But very few people see it. Instead they all make up scenarios how you need twice as many locos because they are ultra unreliable, or how they are too difficult etc etc.

 

[HSTEd]

Whatever happens, I'd still want to have the BS Plugs on the walls, under tables, where ever, unless a new LV standard socket comes out soon, you'll never be able to plug a laptop into a 5V DC supply, (considering most take in a supply of 19.6VDC at about 4A) don't need to supply much current to these wall sockets, say 6A each maximum and no more than say, 16, 32 or perhaps 48A for the whole carriage (if we're running a 3phase converted supply, balance it as 16A L-N on three circuits) then you're still needing to supply up to 11kVA just for that! Heating or HVAC would come in at about 15kVA for a unit, lighting is negligible, either way, I can't see providing 5V USB Based sockets as a solution, they just don't provide enough power (300mA@5V for USB2, 1A@5V for USB3)

Dedicated USB charging sockets are rated for 1.5A@5V.

A signfiicant number of the devices I see plugged in these days are smart phones or whatever, which are now required by the EU to come with the Common External Power Supply which is basically a USB port rigged for charging.

Considering the low cost of 5V power supply equipment these days its a pretty good deal methinks.
And I did mean as well as 230V outlets, just that the number of devices people have now would easily swamp the number of sockets we could reasonably have when we get to higher train loadings, and this is a low cost way of increasing the supply of them.
And it doesn't clutter up the table space like those sockets do.

 

[Zoe]

Its only when you get to the electrics that there is very little difference. You still get those claiming EMUs are better, but thats only when they compare a fantasy EMU (ive seen someone try and explain that a pendy could be ultra amazing if you improved it for heavens sake) to an 80s electric loco. Compare like for like, and there will be next to no difference. Unpowered coaches will still be quieter though.

With a bi-mode MU though all you have to do is remove the engines once electrification of the route is complete. You wouldn't need to build a new electric loco.

 

[Nym]

Dedicated USB charging sockets are rated for 1.5A@5V.

A signfiicant number of the devices I see plugged in these days are smart phones or whatever, which are now required by the EU to come with the Common External Power Supply which is basically a USB port rigged for charging.

Considering the low cost of 5V power supply equipment these days its a pretty good deal methinks.
And I did mean as well as 230V outlets, just that the number of devices people have now would easily swamp the number of sockets we could reasonably have when we get to higher train loadings, and this is a low cost way of increasing the supply of them.
And it doesn't clutter up the table space like those sockets do.

Ahhh fair enough then, yeah, no problems with a couple of USB 1.5A sockets next to each BS1363 socket... The charger I carry for my mobile feeds from one of these anyway, and a lot of phones I am seeing now use the MicroUSB as a charging interface. What would you call a fair number per seat? Say 2 USB's per seat and 0.5 BS1363 per seat in standard, and 1 per seat in 1st?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

With a bi-mode MU though all you have to do is remove the engines once electrification of the route is complete. You wouldn't need to build a new electric loco.

So you end up with sky high development costs to incorporate this new engine and then a pile of useless engines in 10 - 15 years, good play...

 

[Zoe]

So you end up with sky high development costs to incorporate this new engine and then a pile of useless engines in 10 - 15 years, good play...

Maybe longer than 10-15 years but due to climate change diesel engines are not likely to be an option in the long term so best to plan for the possibility of running without them.

 

[HSTEd]

Ahhh fair enough then, yeah, no problems with a couple of USB 1.5A sockets next to each BS1363 socket... The charger I carry for my mobile feeds from one of these anyway, and a lot of phones I am seeing now use the MicroUSB as a charging interface. What would you call a fair number per seat? Say 2 USB's per seat and 0.5 BS1363 per seat in standard, and 1 per seat in 1st?

Something of that order should be sufficient, and with LED lighting you could cut power requirements substantially, especially the all important air conditioning load.

Well presumably we will not be able to remove all diesel traction everywhere within 15 years, so a large part of the diesel fleet would end up being redeployed onto freight or whatever, replacing the then legacy Cl66/67 fleet or whatever.

 

[junglejames]

You'll notice I'm only entrusting Derby to build the carriages, the locomotives will be going to our friends in Germany that develop their kit over here... Or Volkoshh, they seem to have perfected multi-generator locomotives, lets have one with 4000hp and 100mph and we're set for LDPE LHCS Diesel Locomotives

Now we dont agree with each other! If we have this unlimited money, id be putting money into Loughborough to get their facilities back up to building locos. Game on. You may as well help the economy at the same time.

 

[Zoe]

Something of that order should be sufficient, and with LED lighting you could cut power requirements substantially, especially the all important air conditioning load.

Anyone know if there are still plans to run one diesel engine when the bi-mode trains are under the wires?

 

[junglejames]

The bullet trains? You mean the Shinkansen? I wouldn't have thought there'd be much to criticse there. The only high speed (i.e. over 200 km/h) stock that Bombardier make by themselves is the Talgos for Spain, and they're a rather specialised design. They co-produced the ICE3 for DB and derivatives for China, but they haven't been without their faults.

Yep, Im on about the Shinkansens. All of the modern ones ive seen have had horrible short windows and horrible interiors, and the 395s are similar. Add into that the awful ride quality. Give me a 375 on steroids anyday.

 

[Nym]

So a 375, with end doors, 125/140 capable, no engine noises, and comfy as hell, and you'd be happy?

Oh and loco wise, I'd put it out to tender...

And the major advantage of LED lighting vice Florecent, is that Florescent lights require true sine wave to work properly, if you are running a DC bus, getting that is expensive, so if you run a modified sine wave AC for 'chargers etc' and use DC rail controllers for HVAC and pumps, you don't need any true sine power electronics, also keeps costs down.

Expensive because it has much more complex controllers and many more MOSFETs or IGBTs (Or it has to use MOSFETs, rather than small IGBTs) a quasi-squarewave can be generated at the controller for each motor, and a 'modified sine wave 1 phase ~230V' can be used for sockets. DC-DC convertors used for the USB chargers and lighting, all lighting can also have a long life independant battery fallback in case of power failiure. (Yes, it's a big deal!) In addition to heavy batteries that provide a backup supply for door motors, fans, and basic systems.

 

[HSTEd]

Oh and smart glass for the windows instead of blinds, lower maintenance and less likely to break.

 

[Nym]

Cost...? Fit curtains...

If you mean what I think you do by smart glass, (polorising stuff) it's very expensive.

 

[Zoe]

Oh and smart glass for the windows instead of blinds, lower maintenance and less likely to break.

So if you want to look out of the window at night then you are out of luck?

 

[HSTEd]

Cost...? Fit curtains...

If you mean what I think you do by smart glass, (polorising stuff) it's very expensive.

Its not that expensive, currently $50-$100/sqft and thats before you factor in the effect of a series of large new fabrication plants which are apparently going to drop the price precipitously.

At $50/sq.ft I make an 8 coach rake having less than £150,000 of glass.

But I concede the point.


You could have dimmer switches at each seating bay Zoe.

 

[junglejames]

So a 375, with end doors, 125/140 capable, no engine noises, and comfy as hell, and you'd be happy?

No I wouldnt be happy. Id rather a new updated IC225. Well personally id rather we keep the Mk3s exactly as they are and not replace them, or magically make the slammers come back down South.
But thinking sensibly, yes, an IC225 type train. DVT at the end with no passengers in it. Gives space for luggage and bikes etc which we wouldnt find space for if it was full of passengers.
When I mentioned a 375 on steroids, I was only comparing it to Hitachi rubbish. A 375 over any Hitachi stuff anyday. Hell, a slammer over any Hitachi stuff anyday. Proper windows, space, and ultra comfy seats. Plus often improved ride quality, amazingly enough!

Oh and loco wise, I'd put it out to tender...

I wouldnt. If it was down to me, Brush would already have won the contract.
Everything you could need all on the one site at Loughborough. Well apart from the engines. You just pop next door for all your electrical needs.

 

[Zoe]

You could have dimmer switches at each seating bay Zoe.

That's all very well but there is usually more than one seat to each window so it only takes one selfish person to decide that they want to window blacked out.

 

[HSTEd]

That's all very well but there is usually more than one seat to each window so it only takes one selfish person to decide that they want to window blacked out.

Same with a curtain

You could also control each individual square inch of the screen independently if you want, so in theory you could have the name of the station appear on the window.
In ten years the fun begins methinks

 

[swt_passenger]

Anyone know if there are still plans to run one diesel engine when the bi-mode trains are under the wires?

That only applied to the 10 car bimode when it had a diesel power car at one end, and a single big transformer at the other.

Lots of water under the bridge since then, it was kicked into touch a while back when they changed spec to underfloor engines and a number of smaller transformers also distributed through the train; but the only detailed explanation I ever saw was in one of Roger Ford's Modern Railway articles.