'Big man' vs Sam Main incident (final decision: no charges for either)

[YorkshireBear]

The justice system is far from perfect.

That far that is it is closer to wrong. But as above says.... what else do we have. There isnt an alternative.

 

[Bungle73]

The Decapod - you wont win many friends here with ridiculous comments like that, and I am saddened that anyone is on the side of the chav.

Clearly the chav turns round, fists clenched, to hit the big bloke, who stops him by holding his arms, given that the chav had demonstrated clear intent to assault at that point, the big bloke was entirely in his rights to ensure that the chav was ejected firmly from the train.

Sorry, but I don't think that's clear at all. I've just reviewed that part of the video several times and all I see is him attempting to re-board the train with his arms stretched out in front out him; presumably to get past the people standing there.

I'm not sure why it's ok for one passenger to assault (for that is what it was) another purely on the basis of a ticketing dispute. Or are we saying that it's open season for anyone to take the law into their own hands, in what ever way they see fit?

 

[Minilad]

That far that is it is closer to wrong. But as above says.... what else do we have. There isnt an alternative.

Oh yes we do

 

[cointreau_rove]

I have both contributed and followed this thread with growing sadness and apprehention.

The banging on about the rights and wrongs of what occurred on that train on its way into Edinburgh and the general disdain shown by many for the "student" or chav or whatever.

An almost rabid point at various rail regulations harking back to a more stable time. (1840.....)

There seems to be a manic show of hands that seems to be satisfied that someone has been tried and found guilty of wrong doing without recourse to law and in the process has been assaulted (sorry people it is an assault in my eyes and in my work I have seen far less than that go through the courts with convictions handed down.

The non payment or wrong ticket is no offence that would warrant what occurred on the train and I do feel sorry for all oinvolved but we do have rule of law irrespective of the frustrations felt by many. I mentioned in my first post the risks involved with using violence to sort out a problem and despite throwing around various rules and regulations the punishment for being stroppy or not aying your fare or having the wrong ticket is not assault and perhaps more.

If the alleged fare dodger is diabetic then as one who suffers the same then please understand that the condition can rapidly change the character depending on blood sugar levels etc. Ask a simple question - how mant train drivers are there who have diabetes?

I do understand the issue of frustration and anger felt by many, especially train staff who I owuld be the first one to stand beside if threatened by violence as I have seen happen over the years but lets get some sense in the call for the actions of the big man in what he did.... the mob does not and never will again (I hope) set the rules on a case by case basis.... to those who think public acclaim is the answer to his possible conviction well ask yourself this - we have 63 million people on this island - do we throw away the rule of law to satisfy the need for some kind of cathartic revenge on those we don't like?

Friedrich Gustav Martin Niemöller's words may have a little resonance (albeit he spoke of religious intolerance but hey intolerance is the same whatever the case and Mr Main obviously resinated with many on here.....

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Jew.
When they came for me, there was no one left to speak out.

I read that as - if we allow any element of our freedom to be who we are we lose it all - yes Mr Main was stroppy and unreasonable but throwing off the train, chucked off, tossed onto the platform - assaulted when no violence was offered ..... whatever way you determine it - it was just not right.....

C

 

[bnm]

Almost a good post, but you mentioned the Nazis.

OK, so you were quoting Niemöller, but that is no defence.

You stand accused, alongside Old Timer, of breaking Godwin's Law.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Not having any real point of view to add to the matter, but having read the many hundreds of postings on this thread, it certainly is a most emotive subject matter that has brought out both camps of opinion (and their respective "big guns") to air their views.

We have a visitor from Holland staying with us for a couple of days and she was interested to read how this forum debate was progressing. Her opinion from a Dutch perspective seems to wonder if there are two levels of justice in Britain, where more latitude is allowed for those unfortunate to have less regard for British law, than is applicable to a law-abiding citizen.

 

[PauloDavesi]

Surely if Mr Main had been issued with incorrect tickets he would have produced both tickets by now?

Also, I would have thought the issuing station will have an audit log of what tickets were issued. Or is that too logical for the railway industry?

 

[sonorguy]

Surely if Mr Main had been issued with incorrect tickets he would have produced both tickets by now?

Also, I would have thought the issuing station will have an audit log of what tickets were issued. Or is that too logical for the railway industry?

It's quoted earlier ibn this thread that there is evidence that this part of Main's story is true and that there is a record of him being sold two single tickets for the same direction.

 

[Schnellzug]

Not having any real point of view to add to the matter, but having read the many hundreds of postings on this thread, it certainly is a most emotive subject matter that has brought out both camps of opinion (and their respective "big guns") to air their views. .

It seems to be becoming the new Stagecoach NW thread.

 

[amcluesent]

I'm doing PBO-EDB-HLC this Saturday and have been consulting my phrase book in case a 'telting' is needed on the last leg -

See you, Jimmy!
Crivens, I kent his faither!
Awa' and boil yer heid!
Help 'ma boab!
Hauld yer wheesht, ya bampot!
Hoots! I could murder a munchie box!
Michty Me! No stotious eejits in first class, please!

 

[tempests1]

Back in the 90's I was a Guard on the SWT Suburban Lines. One Friday night we picked up a large group of Rugby Players at Worcester Park heading for a night out in Epsom, we got to Ewell West and these horrible kids were holding the doors on the class 455 waiting for their mates or just generally causing trouble as was a frequent thing on this line after dark I shouted at them but to no avail. Eventually I made a PA Announcement apologising to passengers for the delay and explaining that it was due to a number of people holding the doors. Next thing I knew members of the rugby team physically removed the hoodie kids from the train and obviously gave them a talking to as they walked off the station. The Rugby team then got back on board I shut the doors got interlock then gave a 2 bell to the driver and off we went. This was before the Internet had really taken off and the mobile's of the day did not have video camera's built in. I am sure that there are operational staff who could recall hundreds of stories. There was a legendry guard at our depot. One a particular line there was a station that did not have a sunday service. He came across a ticketless passenger with attitude one Sunday he buzzed up the driver and got him to stop at the next station removed said passenger who said **** you I will get the next train. As the train pulled out the guard said from his inward swinging door good luck my friend the next one is at 07.00 tomorrow morning! the colour drained from the ticketless passenger. The stock was a 4 vep Slam Door EMU which had no CCTV/OTMR. The station had no CCTV, was in the middle of a Track Circuit Section/Trust Berth Section. So there was no proof the train had ever stopped. Sadly you can't get away with this anymore! There were a couple of other passengers on board but they did not say anything. Another occassion when working at a large station there were a couple of guys without a ticket and no intention of paying the station security ended carrying them off the station past some BTP Officers the ticketless two were giving the big ones to cops 'we been assaulted blah blah blah' The BTP said we didn't see a thing, on your way and you'll be arrested if you return to the station without the means to pay for your ticket. Obviously this was a very long time ago wouldn't be like this now. The security staff probably would be arrested.

 

[sonorguy]

I'm doing PBO-EDB-HLC this Saturday and have been consulting my phrase book in case a 'telting' is needed on the last leg -

See you, Jimmy!
Crivens, I kent his faither!
Awa' and boil yer heid!
Help 'ma boab!
Pipe down, ya bampot!
Hoots! I could murder a munchie box!
Michty Me! No stotious eejits in first class!

I think you need 'Wee bawbag!" and then, by jingo, you've got it!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Nobody knows for sure - unless you were there - what happened between the ticket guy and the "offender" but what happened afterwards we can be sure about. Whether someone thinks he deserved it is irrelevant. He was manhandled by a member of the public who appeared to ask permission of the ticket guy to throw him off. I don't think the ticket guy can give that permission? Even so he was picked out of his seat and pushed off the train and prevented from getting back on by someone who wasn't part of the original fracas. IMO assault. Also what hasn't been highlighted is his bag had been thrown from the train. What if there had been an expensive camera in the bag or something similar that had been broken?

Even on the footage that is available everyone can see Mr Main being verbally abusive to the conductor (which can easily also be classed as Assault!) and not giving a s***e about any person on that train but himself, Mr Main was the instigator (from what we can see on the footage) and got what he deserved.

 

[Schnellzug]

. Also what hasn't been highlighted is his bag had been thrown from the train. What if there had been an expensive camera in the bag or something similar that had been broken?

Serve him right.

 

[Greeny]

Having just read this thread I have to say that I was appalled; if that ‘do-gooder’ (or whatever else people want to call him) had laid a hand on me I’d have shoved his bloody teeth down his throat. I wonder if our hero would have got involved if the fare dodger had been a 6ft 6” skinhead?.

The Rule Book used to tell staff that they could only use reasonable force to remove somebody from the premises if they refused to leave AND refused to give their name and address. Nowhere did the Rule Book say that a member of staff could allow (or request) assistance from the public in such situations. Were the member of staff being attacked or assaulted that is a different matter. People cannot just go around getting ‘stuck in’ and expect to get away with it. There is a great deal of difference in helping a member of staff who is being assaulted, and getting stuck in to throw a fare dodger off a train.

Last time I checked, this Country still had a judicial system. I am fully aware that the law and the Courts are a joke, but bypassing them is a dangerous move, and approving of such action is (to me anyway) just as dangerous - where is the line drawn?.

The man intervened without being asked to, from what I can see, the fare evader showed no signs of producing any kind of weapon, and the ‘do-gooder’ laid hands on the other character without being attacked by him. Personally, I’d call it an assault and I hope the CPS think so. Fare evasion does not justify the kind of behaviour exhibited by this individual.

Sorry if that offends anybody – it’s just my personal opinion.

G

 

[tempests1]

I imagine that after the legal proceedings have been concluded one way or the other, Big Man will sell his story to the papers, then will appear on some talk shows and perhaps may be become a reality TV star and make some money good luck to him I say.

[The man intervened without being asked to, from what I can see, the fare evader showed no signs of producing any kind of weapon, and the ‘do-gooder’ laid hands on the other character without being attacked by him. Personally, I’d call it an assault and I hope the CPS think so. Fare evasion does not justify the kind of behaviour exhibited by this individual.

Well to be fair lets look at Mr Main's conduct

1. If a genuine mistake with the ticket had occured he would wan't to sort it out in a polite way such as giving his name and address and trying to resolve it, he was too quick to swear and conduct himself in an aggressive manner, & argued the point with the Guard who I imagine understand tickets and ticketing to a much higher level.

2. Back to the swearing there were other people in the carriage, there were the children sat with the mother, who looked worried and when he was pulled along the carriage he went out of his way to pull into the mother would he have done that if one of the young children were sat there? I imagine he has commited a public order offence (I am no Legal expert so cannot which!)

3. He is a diabetic and was having a hyper, he obviously lives with this condition and manages it and should understand when these things are happening but did not explain this at the time he could have easily explained that he was diabetic and not feeling very well and maybe assistance could have been sought. The Guard is not a mind reader as you cannot look at a person and know they are diabetic! It seems he maybe said this to make his outragous behaviour acceptable.

4. No valid ticket so not a customer of Scotrail so in effect a tresspasser.

5. Will he be paying for the Trust Delay minutes somehow I think not!

6. Removed from the train then trying to push back on, he too could be charged with assault

7. If Big Man is taken to court and found Guilty it could well be a political hot potato as he will have many supporters and they will not rest until his name has been cleared, you never know one of the Red Top papers would probably take his case up.

 

[Minilad]

Nobody knows for sure - unless you were there - what happened between the ticket guy and the "offender" but what happened afterwards we can be sure about. Whether someone thinks he deserved it is irrelevant. He was manhandled by a member of the public who appeared to ask permission of the ticket guy to throw him off. I don't think the ticket guy can give that permission? Even so he was picked out of his seat and pushed off the train and prevented from getting back on by someone who wasn't part of the original fracas. IMO assault. Also what hasn't been highlighted is his bag had been thrown from the train. What if there had been an expensive camera in the bag or something similar that had been broken?

Don't give Main ideas. The next change of story will be he had just been on a photographic expedition and had £5000 worth of camera in the bag that is now smashed so needs replacing

 

[Oswyntail]

...
4. No valid ticket so not a customer of Scotrail so in effect a tresspasser.
.....

I am bemused by the "Trespass" element that seems to have emerged. If we give him the benefit of the doubt (unpopular i know, but there is evidence he was mis-sold his ticket), then he was not a "Fare-Dodger" but a passenger affected by a genuine mistake. Is this now to be considered as "Trespass"? I realise that "Trespass" is a technical term with loads of sub-meanings, but, taking this to extreme, this approach would surely mean that a company could do anyone who was on their premises before buying a ticket.

 

[tempests1]

Don't give Main ideas. The next change of story will be he had just been on a photographic expedition and had £5000 worth of camera in the bag that is now smashed so needs replacing

Oh and the fine Ming Vases, & a couple of Rolex Watches!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I am bemused by the "Trespass" element that seems to have emerged. If we give him the benefit of the doubt (unpopular i know, but there is evidence he was mis-sold his ticket), then he was not a "Fare-Dodger" but a passenger affected by a genuine mistake. Is this now to be considered as "Trespass"? I realise that "Trespass" is a technical term with loads of sub-meanings, but, taking this to extreme, this approach would surely mean that a company could do anyone who was on their premises before buying a ticket.

Well, lets look at this. I believe he could be considered a trespasser as he was not prepared to sort a new ticket out, possibly didn't have the means or was not prepared to pay. He could have asked for a UFN but didn't. He was not a vulnerable passengers under age etc. So the Guard is allowed to ask him to leave the service. As regards the last bit he wasn't on the premises he was on board and when asked failed to produce a ticket or the means to pay

 

[90019]

3. He is a diabetic and was having a hyper, he obviously lives with this condition and manages it and should understand when these things are happening but did not explain this at the time he could have easily explained that he was diabetic and not feeling very well and maybe assistance could have been sought. The Guard is not a mind reader as you cannot look at a person and know they are diabetic! It seems he maybe said this to make his outragous behaviour acceptable.

Interesting how this wasn't mentioned until his father(?) got involved.
If it were actually the case I would have thought he would have said so immediately, rather than waiting for someone else to tell him it was.

 

[tempests1]

Interesting how this wasn't mentioned until his father(?) got involved.
If it were actually the case I would have thought he would have said so immediately, rather than waiting for someone else to tell him it was.

Very True, sounds rather convienient doesn't it!! perhaps his father could see how it all looked and thought quick lets get some mitigating circumstances

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....3. He is a diabetic and was having a hyper, he obviously lives with this condition and manages it and should understand when these things are happening but did not explain this at the time he could have easily explained that he was diabetic and not feeling very well and maybe assistance could have been sought. The Guard is not a mind reader as you cannot look at a person and know they are diabetic! It seems he maybe said this to make his outragous behaviour acceptable....

To be honest, I don't think I have seen a report of the 'young man' having a hyper or hypo. I'm reasonably sure all he has said on the matter is that he is diabetic and had been drinking after his exam (having not eaten anything since breakfast, which doesn't sound very wise for a diabetic), and that his medication may or may not have been in his bag. I have only seen other people say that a hypo might not have helped.

 

[Schnellzug]

Why are people seeming to feel sorry for this twerp? If he did have a medical condition that was exacerbated by drink, he was even more of a twerp for drinking. Either way, he was a twerp. End of story.

 

[sonorguy]

Why are people seeming to feel sorry for this twerp? If he did have a medical condition that was exacerbated by drink, he was even more of a twerp for drinking. Either way, he was a twerp. End of story.

I'd agree with that but he didn't deserve to be asaulted. We've all been twerps at some point in our lives, particularly when we're 19.

I've also seen no evidence that he was having a hypo, all he's said is that he's diabetic and had been drinking.

 

[Wolfie]

I'm glad the big fat oaf has been charged with assault. It's up to the courts now to decide if he's guilty.

But the law wouldn't allow the guard to cause an injury to the passenger they're ejecting.

My bold and italics

Correct - with a jury of good Scots folk who are most likely fed up to the back teeth with foul mouthed little scumbags who make decent people's life miserable and heartily applaud one getting a taste of his own medicine! Guilty verdict - don't hold your breath.....

 

[sonorguy]

My bold and italics

Correct - with a jury of good Scots folk who are most likely fed up to the back teeth with foul mouthed little scumbags who make decent people's life miserable and heartily applaud one getting a taste of his own medicine! Guilty verdict - don't hold your breath.....

This won't be heard by a jury, it'll be a Magistrate's court hearing if it gets that far. He's only been charged with common assault.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I'd agree with that but he didn't deserve to be asaulted. We've all been twerps at some point in our lives, particularly when we're 19.

I've also seen no evidence that he was having a hypo, all he's said is that he's diabetic and had been drinking.

Twerp? last time I watched the Vid he Verbally assaulted the Conductor, was an arrogant little s***e and a member of the public had enough and ejected him from the Train, A Twerp??? I don't think so

 

[Tin Rocket]

I am bemused by the "Trespass" element that seems to have emerged. If we give him the benefit of the doubt (unpopular i know, but there is evidence he was mis-sold his ticket), then he was not a "Fare-Dodger" but a passenger affected by a genuine mistake. Is this now to be considered as "Trespass"? I realise that "Trespass" is a technical term with loads of sub-meanings, but, taking this to extreme, this approach would surely mean that a company could do anyone who was on their premises before buying a ticket.

I think the "trespass" charge for mr main is to do with what followed when the train departed with him being ejected,when he was shoved off the train his belongings were slung off as well, but some off them fell onto the track between train and platform,when the train moved off he may or may not have went onto the track to retrieve his belongings,i may be wrong.

 

[michael769]

This won't be heard by a jury, it'll be a Magistrate's court hearing if it gets that far. He's only been charged with common assault.

Scotland does not have Magistrate's courts. The matter will be heard by a Sheriff and if he pleads not guilty he has the right to request that it be heard in front of a jury.

Personally, I’d call it an assault and I hope the CPS think so.

As the CPS have no involvement in the Law of Scotland what they think of the matter (if anything) is entirely irrelevant.

Scot's law and especially our legal procedures are very different from anything you may have experienced or seen on TV South of the Border.

 

[sonorguy]

Scotland does not have Magistrate's courts. The matter will be heard by a Sheriff and if he pleads not guilty he has the right to request that it be heard in front of a jury.

Forgot it's in Scotland for a minute, Justice of the Peace court or District court then. Same basic function, different name and still doesn't have a jury. It's unlikely to get to a Sherriff's court as the offence isn't serious enough.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Twerp? last time I watched the Vid he Verbally assaulted the Conductor, was an arrogant little s***e and a member of the public had enough and ejected him from the Train, A Twerp??? I don't think so

Sighs... the word twerp was used by someone who shares your point of view in the post above mine, and I was quoting it in that context.