Pendolino could take part in clearance trials on ECML

[Blindtraveler]

glad the point has again been made Re 91 reliabilitty. Its not done the Eurika relaunch any favours having the constant failures wev seen lately and if the decision was taken to go for pendies then with a production line already running we could see this in a very short time.

Doubt youd get more windows but a certain amount of re-specking could bring plugs at all seats, toilets that dont smell and a few other bits streight off.

 

[tbtc]

a Pendolino-type train on a similar contract to the Alstom one with Virgin would come it at about £20,000 per vehicle per month cheaper

Are we talking £20,000 a month cheaper per coach or £20,000 a month cheaper per train?

(out of interest)

 

[HSTEd]

Hopefully East Coast would banish the HSTs before doing anything to the Cl91 fleet. they may not be awesomely reliable but they still have lots of life left in them, especially with the ongoing rebuild (how is that going anyway?)

EDIT:

If they do dump the Cl91+Mk4s..... can we get the Mark 4s converted to EMUs using the DVTs we have lying around and possibly new construction?

 

[Pumbaa]

Are we talking £20,000 a month cheaper per coach or £20,000 a month cheaper per train?

(out of interest)

Per coach. So £220,000 a month per train.

 

[Blindtraveler]

certainly a v attractive prospect for any new opperater. assuming this happened, would MK4s be transfered and loco hauled to off the wires runs and if so what wil haul them? Or will this be the death of off the wires EC Runs?

 

[northwichcat]

Per coach. So £220,000 a month per train.

Wait a minute now. IEP is proposed in 4 different formations: 5 car, 7 car, 8 car and 10 car. If we're suggesting 11 car Pendolinos instead of 10 car IEP then the saving certainly won't be a £220,000 saving per month per set. However, if we're suggesting 10 car Pendolinos instead of 10 car IEP then it'll be a £200,000 per month saving per set.

 

[Pumbaa]

Yes sorry my error. I made my calculation on 11 cars of each. That £20,000 figure is the electric version only. The bi-mode is higher.

 

[DesiroDom]

I think Pendolinos would be a good the 225's are falling in reliability and the HST's are now beyond there design life being 30+years old and the 225's hitting 23 years old.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I don't particularly like the Pendolino in the UK - mainly because the airconditioing is a bit fierce. Its a bit claustrophobic which would be an unecessary penalty if it was used on non-tilting routes. imho ECML is too straight to make tilting worth the bother so we might get a bigger bodyshell ?.

But I would rather have a pendolino or something that is a natural improvement on it than all this IEP non-sense. Sad thing is that Hitachi's offering means more UK jobs than Alsthom's Pendolino but at least we would be keeping jobs in Europe where there is more chance that they will buy something off us in return (?). Realistically would Bombardier in Derby (i.e. not where the 220s, 221s & 222s come from) have anything to offer intercity-wise ?.

I just hope IEP gets "passed by" by reality.

 

[tbtc]

Per coach. So £220,000 a month per train.

Yes sorry my error. I made my calculation on 11 cars of each. That £20,000 figure is the electric version only. The bi-mode is higher.

Quite an eye opener regarding what returns a ROSCO can expect to get on their "assets"...

 

[route:oxford]

How would an electrc 11 car "Pioneer" compare to a "Pendolino" on the East Coast?

 

[Blindtraveler]

a thought I guess, maybe some electric only 11 cars and bi-mode 9 cars?

 

[Pumbaa]

I don't think IEP was ever intended to be 11 cars, I used that in error. 10 electric, 5 electric or 5 bi-mode is the intended format of the IEP.

However, with rolling stock control going back to TOCs, they're keen not to use IEP at all and hence other options being explored such as Alstoms Pendolino family.

 

[Blindtraveler]

well unless your anything to do with XC then a 5 car bi-mode, 2 hevy and too short for purpose is mad! The XC refference due to there obvious love of anything not fit for purpose. Admittedly a dig but feeling a bit bitter after 2 trips with them today which although short, were nasty!

 

[Pumbaa]

Try telling that to DafT. It's just one civil servant pushing this idea. Probably getting bankrolled by Hitachi to do so(cynic in me).

But if DafT can't get the TOCs to use it, or the ROSCOs to fund it, maybe there is hope after all?

 

[route:oxford]

a thought I guess, maybe some electric only 11 cars and bi-mode 9 cars?

Only a handful of bi-mode Pioneers. Plus, they'd only need the power to reach 90mph North of the wires.

 

[Blindtraveler]

well if EC Are looking at pendies and the roomers of the voyager extention/bimoding come to anything then bombardia wil have a 22x production line up and running anyway and may even do the voyager job cheeper if a mass 22 or equivilant order were to go in for GW and off wires EC?

Alternatively, could a 67 cope with an 11 Car pendo on Scottis runs, particularly the INV?

 

[route:oxford]

But if DafT can't get the TOCs to use it, or the ROSCOs to fund it, maybe there is hope after all?

I did hear a rumour that fund managers for the various university funds have had a presentation concerning the potential for an investment in rolling stock for the GWML electrification.

With a 40-50 year lifespan for a good original investment (that is essentially backed by the government) - it might tick the boxes...

 

[Blindtraveler]

Only a handful of bi-mode Pioneers. Plus, they'd only need the power to reach 90mph North of the wires.

there are some 100 sections although not many and Scotrail turbostars are making use of these so 100 would be needed or pathing gets hard. Admittedly no need for anything more though

 

[route:oxford]

there are some 100 sections although not many and Scotrail turbostars are making use of these so 100 would be needed or pathing gets hard. Admittedly no need for anything more though

I was kind-of assuming that by the time it matters, the wires will reach Dunblane/Perth. So that would slice out more of the 100mph sections.

Thinking on a 50 year basis, with Mw of "white" power available - would it really be that ridiculous to run "swiss quality" knitting up the HML to Inverness?

 

[Blindtraveler]

no it wouldnt and seeing as our gutless 170s make a meal out of it if theres a good loading then an EMU on that rum would be a godsend and given the weather conditions up there in winter, make sure said EMU can be dragged and given hotel power by a deezol loco if the power goes but the line remains passable.

 

[junglejames]

Try telling that to DafT. It's just one civil servant pushing this idea. Probably getting bankrolled by Hitachi to do so(cynic in me).

But if DafT can't get the TOCs to use it, or the ROSCOs to fund it, maybe there is hope after all?

Probably making myself sound daft (no pun intended) here, but I havent been keeping on top of the political goings on over this. But who is this civil servant come hitachi employee?!!!

 

[Blindtraveler]

he or she wil if they have any sense remain nameless.

 

[Pumbaa]

Stuart Baker - Deputy Director of National Projects. If you want to give him a ring, his personal number is on the DfT website. He's been religously pushing this idea for the last 5 years through all its various rehashes and configurations.

He has no sense. He's also very protective of his vanity project, and when it got out that he was the only one pushing it and the rest of his team think it's a crap idea, the journos went with it. Subsequently, he banned them from attending any DfT IEP function and Hitachi refused to grant them access to certain events/let them ask questions.

 

[junglejames]

well if EC Are looking at pendies and the roomers of the voyager extention/bimoding come to anything then bombardia wil have a 22x production line up and running anyway and may even do the voyager job cheeper if a mass 22 or equivilant order were to go in for GW and off wires EC?

Alternatively, could a 67 cope with an 11 Car pendo on Scottis runs, particularly the INV?

The problem with the 222s, is they would have a tilt profiled body, which isnt necessary. Plus you are carting all that fuel and the engines up the ECML for nothing, when you have a perfectly good (in fact probably better) solution in a diesel drag from Edinburgh onwards.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Stuart Baker - Deputy Director of National Projects. If you want to give him a ring, his personal number is on the DfT website. He's been religously pushing this idea for the last 5 years through all its various rehashes and configurations.

He has no sense. He's also very protective of his vanity project, and when it got out that he was the only one pushing it and the rest of his team think it's a crap idea, the journos went with it. Subsequently, he banned them from attending any DfT IEP function and Hitachi refused to grant them access to certain events/let them ask questions.

I see. Thanks for that. Id heard rumours that the DFT were slowly moving away from the IEP idea, but never realised it was a one man show now.
Surely it must be a dead duck now though. Its the ministers that make the final decision, and surely even they can see how daft it is now? Although admittedly they did at one stage say yes to it. Not that long ago either.

Stuart Baker. Isnt that the name of the guy who produces the rail atlases? I should know, I have one at home!!! Im assuming it isnt the same guy.

 

[sidmouth]

The problem with the 222s, is they would have a tilt profiled body, which isnt necessary.

A 180 profile?

 

[HSTEd]

I remember going on a 222 back in the days they were at Hull Trains, I always thought they were perfectly reasonable inside, and they arent the only stock I can think of that doesnt tilt while having a tilting body profile.

More, longer 222s would be great for replacing the BiMode requirement although they would not be capable of future speed increases (well I assume they wouldnt)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Stuart Baker. Isnt that the name of the guy who produces the rail atlases? I should know, I have one at home!!! Im assuming it isnt the same guy.

I think indeed it is the same one.
Although you might describe him as a DfT civil servant, he worked for the SRA on WCRM and was one of the key people to rescue the project after Railtrack bungled it.
He is your "informed client" and was instrumental, for instance, in defining the new layouts at Rugby and MK.

I doubt he is in financial charge of the IEP programme, which seems to be its Achilles heel at the moment.
The bean-counters at the DfT/Treasury always have the last say.

 

[dave59]

I'd prefer to see Bombardier fulfill any bi-mode needs with the existing Voyager family. Yes they have a tilt profile but the large windows make up for it in terms of ambience. Travel in a coach with an engine out and it's not bad at all.

Like most I want to see an end to the IEP in bi-mode form but unlike most I want the electric version to continue. With the amount of resources that have gone into the project and the UK jobs it promises I would like to see a rolling programme of the new train expand to replace all ex-BR IC stock. In addition the Birmingham/Manchester -Scotland and eventually Midland Main line 22x vehicles when fully electrified. A proper Inter-city standard train for the UK, manufactured in the UK. Keep the Roscos and TOC's out of it. They would end up with more claustrophobic Pendolinos and other non-standard products.

It was Stuart Baker's idea to put the 221 on the Birmingham-Glasgow route (when it should have been a Class 90/Mk3 operation) so perhaps if the DfT hurry up and get the trains into production they can roll them out onto this turn first.

 

[Chris125]

Like most I want to see an end to the IEP in bi-mode form but unlike most I want the electric version to continue. With the amount of resources that have gone into the project and the UK jobs it promises I would like to see a rolling programme of the new train expand to replace all ex-BR IC stock.

The problem with the all-electric version is that its still wasteful - who else is building LDHS EMU's with a diesel engine underneath for emergencies? Then there's the nonsense of 5-car sets, and 26m carriages restricting its use hardly seems wise either. The whole design is just too costly with too little flexibility and no eye on the future regarding electrification or cascading.

Chris