Loco hauled trains

[Nym]

Not clear on your maths, I'm afraid. EVERY 319 will release a diesel unit , often two - 319s are four car, as I recall, most DMUs are two or three car, often running in tandem. That alone is a fair number. I don't know how many 16Xs crossrail will release, but it's a fair number ... and, of course, by then GW will be almost electrified to Bristol, Oxford and Cardiff, beginning to shed many more.

But there's no convincing those as doesn't want to be convinced. :roll:

Never mind. You'll see for yourself, then I guess you'll (probably) have to believe it!


I don't think so. I seem to remember that certainly 222s, and possibly other 22Xs have huge redundancy in power, and with a reducing portion of their time off the wires, that won't be needed. And much cheaper to take an engine off than add a (redundant) 2nd pantocar. They don't come cheap.

All that will depend on how the trains are made up - 4,5,6,7,8,9.10 car, no way to know - and won't be until it's clearer where they'll be used. And clearer when the MML gets more wires.

1) No they won't, if I need to explain this more fully to you, then at least ask politely rather than just saying I'm wrong and not doing any numbers to back this up

2) That only releases HSTs in the main, that will not directly or indirectly replace pacers in any way, the're most likely on their way to Rotherham.

3) I know, some pepole just don't know how to count!

4) To move anywhere the 222s need about 500hp/car, adding one panto car takes this down to 600, and why would you want to get rid of redundancy that improves reliability?

Final Tip: Learn how to count!

Lancs Triangle Releases:
Victoria - Blackpool North: 3 Diagrams
Hazel Grove - Preston: 3 - 4 Diagrams
Victoria - Liverpool: 3 Diagrams
Airport - Liverpool: 3 Diagrams (With the CLC not gaining an extra semi-fast NT)
Victoria - Wigan all shacks: 2 diagrams (curtailing the service to Bolton)
Lime Street - Wigan: 3 - 4 Diagrams
Lime Street / South Parkway - Blackpool N: 3 diagrams

So, when one learns maths...

22 diagrams released around lancashire.

Turbos being freed up:

Worked out before, all but 12 (for the thames valley stuff)

Is enough to internaly cascade and release all pacers from ATW and FGW (22 of them)

Bristol - Cardiff and Bristol - Bath locals could free up some more diesels, but thats still only 4 or 5 diagrams...

So where may I ask, does 22 + 22 + 5 = 86?

It would be nice if every pacer was replaced by a 319, but there isn't the wiring to run them under!

 

[heenan73]

I'm sorry, I really, really, have no idea where you get your numbers.

You seem to have little idea about the extent of electrification, and clearly haven't kept up with what the journals have been saying for months.

You are simply making it up.

GW electrification will release many 16Xs - in the Thames Valley, pretty much all those not previously released by Crossrail. To claim it will only be HSTs is simply nonsense.

I really can't argue with someone who simply makes things up to suit an increasingly desperate point of view that goes against what all the major commentators are saying.

Take out a sub to Modern Railways, then we can talk again. I'm assuming your reading is a little better than your maths. Until then, you'll have to find someone else willing to respond to your 'theories'. Bye.

 

[Nym]

OK, Read what I actually wrote before you call say it's wrong... Like the way you've changed your mind that all 319s will replace pacers.

MYESELF:
Turbos being freed up:

Worked out before, all but 12 (for the thames valley stuff)

Is enough to internaly cascade and release all pacers from ATW and FGW (22 of them)

Bristol - Cardiff and Bristol - Bath locals could free up some more diesels, but thats still only 4 or 5 diagrams...

When you learn how to count and actually read what informed sources are writing then you can actually attempt a discussion. Until then at least try and stick by your arguments without forgetting the major parts of it you where using and are now convinently forgetting when you're proven wrong.

Come up with a comprehensive list of stock that is going to be replaced by 319s, seems you can quote words all you want but when it comes to actually coming up with numbers, I'm not seeing any.

 

[NXEA!]

I'm sorry, I really, really, have no idea where you get your numbers.

You seem to have little idea about the extent of electrification, and clearly haven't kept up with what the journals have been saying for months.

You are simply making it up.

GW electrification will release many 16Xs - in the Thames Valley, pretty much all those not previously released by Crossrail. To claim it will only be HSTs is simply nonsense.

I really can't argue with someone who simply makes things up to suit an increasingly desperate point of view that goes against what all the major commentators are saying.

Take out a sub to Modern Railways, then we can talk again. I'm assuming your reading is a little better than your maths. Until then, you'll have to find someone else willing to respond to your 'theories'. Bye.

Nym is right about the Thames Valley electrification, the GWML is being done, but as of present the Greenford, Henley, Bourne End/Marlow and Windsor branches are not, and neither is Reading to Basingstoke, nor the North Downs line which forms part of the route for the Reading to Gatwick service. There are plans for a bay at West Ealing to turn the Greenford service into a shuttle which will require one unit, Henley will require one unit (don't quote me on it), Bourne End and Marlow will require two units, Windsor a unit and Reading to Basingstoke will require two units, which is seven units. I'm not sure how many diagrams are needed on the North Downs, but if we assume its 3 or 4 diagrams, that's, 10 or 11 diagrams for a small diesel fleet, and that's not taking into account the opportunity for any frequency increases anywhere, so with maintenance spares you're looking at a fleet of 13-15 units. And then you still haven't taken into consideration the future of the Bedwyn service. I don't think there's been a firm proposal for whats happening in the future, but if you leave it in its current form you're looking at around 20 units I expect (although having a 3 car hourly diesel is a massive waste of a path, the best solution would be to have an all stations after Reading IEP to Westbury in my opinion which is by-the-by), so out of a fleet of 57 units, you're only going to release around 37 units, which is the same number as the amount of 165's (bar 165115 being scrapped). You mention electrification around the Bristol and Cardiff area, but as far as I'm aware this is only to facilitate the use of IEP on London services - lines such as the Severn Beach line, the route out to Portsmouth and the Valley lines around Cardiff aren't receiving electrification yet, so you're not releasing any if many DMU's from there as far as I'm aware apart from the few Bristol-Cardiff local's, but then you're looking at a small EMU fleet of about 5 units (if I'm definitely misinformed, someone feel free to correct me). I can't comment on the Lancashire electrification problems as I am not as well versed with the area's railways, but that attack on Nym was a little uncalled for.

 

[Moog_1984]

all a bit ridiculous when you compare the price of even just widening roads

From a few years ago, the m1 widening to cost £800 an inch!
In its previous guise as Transport 2000, they used to quote government figures and stating that you can build 25 miles of single track and 10 miles of double electrified track for the cost of ONE MILE of sixe laner plus hard shoulder.

The money is there for over head wires on many easy to do routes. People need to get into political parties and change the agenda.

Nym is right about the Thames Valley electrification, the GWML is being done, but as of present the Greenford, Henley, Bourne End/Marlow and Windsor branches are not, and neither is Reading to Basingstoke, nor the North Downs line which forms part of the route for the Reading to Gatwick service. There are plans for a bay at West Ealing to turn the Greenford service into a shuttle which will require one unit, Henley will require one unit (don't quote me on it), Bourne End and Marlow will require two units, Windsor a unit and Reading to Basingstoke will require two units, which is seven units. I'm not sure how many diagrams are needed on the North Downs, but if we assume its 3 or 4 diagrams, that's, 10 or 11 diagrams for a small diesel fleet, and that's not taking into account the opportunity for any frequency increases anywhere, so with maintenance spares you're looking at a fleet of 13-15 units. And then you still haven't taken into consideration the future of the Bedwyn service. I don't think there's been a firm proposal for whats happening in the future, but if you leave it in its current form you're looking at around 20 units I expect (although having a 3 car hourly diesel is a massive waste of a path, the best solution would be to have an all stations after Reading IEP to Westbury in my opinion which is by-the-by), so out of a fleet of 57 units, you're only going to release around 37 units, which is the same number as the amount of 165's (bar 165115 being scrapped). You mention electrification around the Bristol and Cardiff area, but as far as I'm aware this is only to facilitate the use of IEP on London services - lines such as the Severn Beach line, the route out to Portsmouth and the Valley lines around Cardiff aren't receiving electrification yet, so you're not releasing any if many DMU's from there as far as I'm aware apart from the few Bristol-Cardiff local's, but then you're looking at a small EMU fleet of about 5 units (if I'm definitely misinformed, someone feel free to correct me). I can't comment on the Lancashire electrification problems as I am not as well versed with the area's railways, but that attack on Nym was a little uncalled for.

 

[Rhydgaled]

you're only going to release around 37 units, which is the same number as the amount of 165's (bar 165115 being scrapped).

Yep, the 165 fleet is about all the stock I can think of being made available (other than IC125s) from the currently commited electrification schemes. However, if the claims that ROSCOs are not going to order any new DMUs then, if the DfT doesn't make all Pacers exempt from disability rules, then in my opinion ValleyLines electrification is a must.

ValleyLines electrification should free up all Wales' pacers, plus 8 150s to replace FGW's 8 143s and leave Northern as the sole operator of the remaining 103 Pacers. That leaves all those released 165s to free up some Pacers, and as I've said before I'd send at least some of them direct to the Newcastle area to avoid guage clearance issues, rather than displacing 150s from the south-west.

 

[Nym]

Personally (to save training, and time) I'd have the turbo fleet used to get rid of pacers on the GW route, move some stuff round, send some sprinters to ATW, use the turbos round Bristol etc.

Then the Northern Pacer fleet is going to need say,
the Valley Lines (all valley line stock sent to Northern, don't know how many that is)
TP North would also release a few NT units (and mean some NT routes could be handed over to TPE)
It would knock free all but 16 units from the TPE fleet, (Airport - Lakes, Airport - Cleethorpes). That would leave enough to cover some InterReigonal routes around the North...

35 units to play with...
Take your pick...
Liverpool - Norwich: 13 diagrams (so I've been told), 15 units. Cascade to NT to replace pacers.
Calder Valley Fasts: 7 diagrams, 10 units (but can be interworked with other diagrams, so proberbly closer to 8 units)
Blackpool North - Scarbrough: 10 diagrams, 12 units
Leeds - Carlisle?
Portion Working through the Hope Valley to make
Liverpool - CLC Semi Fast - Manchester - Stockport - Sheffeild -
-- Doncaster - Goole - Hull Paragon
-- Doncaster - Thorne - Cleethorpes

Basically, keep the 185s as a seperate fleet covering the 'expressey' jobs round the north, under a seperate brand name if it can be maintained, that covers 35 - 40 pacers

Then the direct replacement stock...

Leeds - Selby 2dia?
Leeds - Hudds 2dia?
Hudds - Vic 2dia?

If via Castleford is done too, knock that onto the list with another 3 or 4 diagrams

So lets say thats another 10 or so units, (pacers)

So, optimistically TPE N Electrification can cover 50 pacers

If the valley lines can cover another 31 (all their 150s)

Leaves about 20 or so to find...

Some more wires around Greater Manchester could cover that, or a load of smaller schemes...

Mid Cheshire Line Tram Train 4 units
East Manchester Lines ?10 units
Lostock - Wigan 4 units
Eaglescliffe - Darlo...
Donny - Goole - Hull

Then of course add in the HT Units freed up that could go, somwhere... (From TPE N Electrification)

Anyway, if the valley lines includes enough to get rid of 50 units (I think it proberbly might... don't know the valley lines)

TPE N Should manage 50 units directly and indirectly by other routes becoming 185 operated, or swapping 185s out with another TOC wholesale for 158s or 159s (I'm looking at YOU SWT!)

Thats Northern covered, all pacers potentially gone with two major schemes.

Then it's just the matter of the IEP Bi Mode to scrap with MML Electrification and we're all happy... and don't need any new diesel trains for a very long time, provided we keep up electrification with stock expiry rates...

 

[sprinterguy]

They plan to with IEP, against all advice, so why not? But with 22X fleets, it isn't so bad, because when they add the pantograph car, they'll almost certainly remove one or two engines as they do it.

Why on earth would that be done? Adding a pantograph car is adding additional deadweight to the trains, reducing the power to weight ratio. If an engine was to be removed in addition to adding the panto car then all that would achieve would be a considerable slowing down of Crosscountry schedules. Not something that is likely to happen.

Plus most will be running on all-electric lines within a few years, allowing the rest of the engines to go too.

Unless Crosscountrys' Voyagers are replaced by something else in the next 10-15 years and moved elsewhere, there is very little chance that they will ever run on fully electrified routes within their expected lifespans.

Interesting, though irrelevant, when they built the 16X fleets, it was claimed at the time that their engines could be replaced by electrics 'when the wires go up on Chiltern' - chances are, the wires won't go up until it's time to replace that fleet anyway!

That's nigh on impossible as the 165 and 168 units have hydraulic transmission. Converting them to electric power would involve a massive re-engineering programme to remove the transmission and drive train as well as the engines.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not clear on your maths, I'm afraid. EVERY 319 will release a diesel unit , often two - 319s are four car, as I recall, most DMUs are two or three car, often running in tandem.

All the units released by the North West electrification are likely to be used strengthening the remaining diesel operated services in the area that these trains already operate. The 10-15 185s that will be released are definitely already earmarked for use strengthening TPE services over the pennines.

The GWML electrification will release a large number of Network Turbos. I foresee these being utilised to replace FGWs' eight 143s and allowing some 150s to be moved around. As far as I know, GWML electrification will directly replace very few DMUs around Bristol.

I don't know how many 16Xs crossrail will release, but it's a fair number ... and, of course, by then GW will be almost electrified to Bristol, Oxford and Cardiff, beginning to shed many more.

Under the present scheme, the only DMUs that Crossrail will release is the handful of diagrams (two) on the Maidenhead branch.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Nym is right about the Thames Valley electrification, the GWML is being done, but as of present the Greenford, Henley, Bourne End/Marlow and Windsor branches are not, and neither is Reading to Basingstoke, nor the North Downs line which forms part of the route for the Reading to Gatwick service. There are plans for a bay at West Ealing to turn the Greenford service into a shuttle which will require one unit, Henley will require one unit (don't quote me on it), Bourne End and Marlow will require two units, Windsor a unit and Reading to Basingstoke will require two units, which is seven units. I'm not sure how many diagrams are needed on the North Downs, but if we assume its 3 or 4 diagrams, that's, 10 or 11 diagrams for a small diesel fleet, and that's not taking into account the opportunity for any frequency increases anywhere, so with maintenance spares you're looking at a fleet of 13-15 units. And then you still haven't taken into consideration the future of the Bedwyn service. I don't think there's been a firm proposal for whats happening in the future, but if you leave it in its current form you're looking at around 20 units I expect (although having a 3 car hourly diesel is a massive waste of a path, the best solution would be to have an all stations after Reading IEP to Westbury in my opinion which is by-the-by), so out of a fleet of 57 units, you're only going to release around 37 units, which is the same number as the amount of 165's (bar 165115 being scrapped).

I feel that it would work quite neatly if the twenty one 166s were retained for the Thames Valley branches (though it's incredibly daft that they're not being electrified with the rest of the GWML), with, as you say, the thirty six 165s moved towards Bristol and the West Country.