Your Advice - First Capital Connect FCC Issues on penalty/being taken to court

[noclue2]

Hi, a month back I got off a flight from Luton into London and without thinking pressed St. Albans instead of St. Pancras (I have a zone 1-2 travelcard which takes me the rest of the way through london).

During ticket inspection using First Capital Connect the controller saw this and wrote me up without giving me any options. I sent a letter explaining the mistake to FCC and they replied saying they got my letter and were going to take me to court. I called and they called back saying I could write the head of prosecution trying to settle out of court, otherwise the court date would be some time in February. They said the fair was £12.50, their legal cost is £110, and the court can ask for an additional penalty of £175.

Has anyone gone through this type of experience, the feeling is surreal as its the first honest mistake in 5 years of using FCC. I work in London, have never been given a penalty fair and always buy the right ticket. I'm a little beside myself as the letter they sent was fairly harsh (penalties can be up to £1k fines, 6 months jail time, etc.) and every step I've asked FCC what they need me to do to settle this. I've just written the prosecution manager saying it was a mistake and begging for some way to settle this and have even offered £132.50 (the £12.50 + £110) but since the first letter I sent said pretty much the same thing, I don't know if he'll accept. The concern is otherwise I need to get a solicitor involved which would go way beyond £132.50. Am feeling a bit rough right now, could really use some advice.

Thanks.

 

[bb21]

Hi, a month back I got off a flight from Luton into London and without thinking pressed St. Albans instead of St. Pancras (I have a zone 1-2 travelcard which takes me the rest of the way through london).

This is a little confusing. Do you mean that you pressed the wrong button at the Ticket Vending Machine and ended up with a Luton - St Albans ticket rather than a Luton - London Thameslink ticket?

 

[island]

It's not unknown for a case like this to be reported for prosecution, as on the face of it you were engaging in "doughnutting", where you have separate tickets for the start and end of your journey but not the hole in the middle. This is rarely done by mistake (not that I am accusing you of anything), which is probably why you were not just charged a penalty fare.

It's a bit difficult to recommend settlements in this instance as you are claiming a genuine mistake.

 

[LexyBoy]

This is a little confusing. Do you mean that you pressed the wrong button at the Ticket Vending Machine and ended up with a Luton - St Albans ticket rather than a Luton - London Thameslink ticket?

St Albans would be right next to St Pancras on a TVM, the latter of which the OP intended to purchase (although they actually only needed a ticket to West Hampstead Thameslink or Boundary Zone 2), so a very easy mistake to make on the face of it (and, surprise surprise, one which wouldn't happen at a ticket office).

 

[noclue2]

Actually St Albans was on the quick push common destinations first screen, the connection bus was leaving to get to the train station, I had just gotten off a flight so was a little jetlagged and my brain wasn't working.

As a clarification, I started at Luton Airport and bought a ticket to St. Albans (thinking I'd bought one for St. Pancras). I then changed at St. Albans and took a train to St. Pancras.

Prosecution can say I should have noted the £5 ticket to St. Albans should have seemed out of place, I just totally missed it. The funny thing is it's a difference of £9, less since I have an annual gold card. Ironically I feel I might have just gotten a regular penalty had I just not bought a ticket and said I hopped on the train not to miss it, or that's what the lady from prosecutions led me to believe when she talked about the common penalty situations.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

St Albans would be right next to St Pancras on a TVM).

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought that St Pancras actually comes under L for London St Pancras and is therefore not next to St. Albans. I would check that out before claiming it as a defence as it may actually make matters worse.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Another thing that might come up - to the OP - why were you looking to buy a ticket to St Pancras anyway? Since you have a Zones 1-2 Travelcard, you only needed to buy to West Hampstead Thameslink, which is £1 cheaper (or 65p with Gold Card discount).

 

[First class]

I'd say sending them a cheque for £150 and a letter offering to settle will divert it from court. Outline in the letter this is your final offer to cover their admin charges for your honest mistake.

They've got you bang to rights on Byelaw 18, a good prosecutor could convince a magistrate on the more serious 5(3b).

If £150 is not accepted, I wouldn't even get a lawyer if they prosecute for Byelaw 18. Waste of time/money as it is certain a conviction would be made. Byelaw 18 on conviction for a first time offender would be about £200 fine, £100 costs, the fare owed and £15 Victim Surcharge Fee (probably max £350). It wouldn't usually show as a criminal record, perhaps only on enhanced CRB checks.

5(3b) is where a lawyer would possibly be able to pick holes, but probably going to be expensive for one that knows railway law. The penalty is a lot greater and severe. Usually fine around £500, costs about £100 and proper criminal record for a fraud offence. (banned from various countries/accounting).

Anyhow FCC are likely to go for Byelaw 18 as it is easier and cheaper (for them) to convict on:

Byelaw 18:

18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas
(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter
any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a
valid ticket entitling him to travel

Byelaw 18 - Defences (ONLY THESE DEFENCES ARE ACCEPTABLE)

(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or
validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where,
he began his journey; or
(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey
permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a
valid ticket.

Byelaw 18 - Penalties

Offence and level of fines
Any person who breaches any of these Byelaws commits an offence,
may be liable for each such offence to a
penalty not exceeding level 3 (currently £1000) on the standard scale.

Regulation of Railways Act - Section 5(3b)

(3)If any person—
(b)Having paid his fare for a certain distance, knowingly and wilfully proceeds by train beyond that distance without previously paying the additional fare for the additional distance, and with intent to avoid payment thereof

he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale, or, in the case of a second or subsequent offence, either to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale, or in the discretion of the court to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months.

Regulation of Railways Act - Section 5(4)

(4)The liability of an offender to punishment under this section shall not prejudice the recovery of any fare payable by him.

 

[yorkie]

Ironically I feel I might have just gotten a regular penalty had I just not bought a ticket and said I hopped on the train not to miss it, or that's what the lady from prosecutions led me to believe when she talked about the common penalty situations.

To clarify, a penalty fare is charged for an honest mistake (within the PF rules).

Prosecution is likely to occur when they believe you did not make an honest mistake.

They are very different matters.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

As a clarification, I started at Luton Airport and bought a ticket to St. Albans (thinking I'd bought one for St. Pancras). I then changed at St. Albans and took a train to St. Pancras.

.

I am a little baffled as to why you would change at St A. I am not the greatest of fans of FCC (and would say you are pretty unlucky to have encountered any staff) but from what you say you -

(a. Bought a ticket to St.Albans when you intended to go further

(b. Actually alighted at St.Albans giving you an opportunity to then buy a ticket to continue your journey but didn't do so

(c. Then continued your journey knowing you didn't have a valid ticket.

I think the advice given on here would be your best option to follow.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

There is certainly hope that an offer may be accepted. Every case will be considered on its own merits and settlements with TOCs over ticketing irregularities have been agreed by phone.
One of the factors which will be evaluated is whether you have had any prior 'incidents' with FCC (which you and they will know already).

People sending cheques as First Class suggests have had them returned, only for a settlement to be reached later.

A general practice High Street Solicitor may charge you between £500 - £1k to prepare for a defence in Court, and will not be aware of the relevant legislation and vital Case Law which will direct the Court should it reach that far. Specialist Solicitors in Railway Law are few and far between, charging £4 - £5 for their exclusive company. You're probably in as good hands on here as with any of them, and we can give specialist advice.

Havng joined this matter at such a late stage, and having no indication of which Offence is being prosecuted, no Evidence nor any Witness statements to analyse and criticise (looking for lines of Cross-Examination which may undermine any prosecution), and crucially, having no record of your ticketing history with that Company, then I can only give you general direction.
I advise you to keep the correspondence alive by making a prompt apology and expressing your remorse at your error, and by repeating the proposal that a settlement in appreciation of the actual costs the Company will obviously have incurred is your preferred course of resolution. Thay've provided the figures and so you know what a settlement will cost you.
Its usually worth following up such a letter with a phone call to the Prosecutions Manager to ask if they are in a position yet to consider a settlement. Have your Debit Card to hand in case you're fortunate!

If their response at that stage is a firm refusal (and we must hope that they accept) then we have some work ahead of us and any help from here will only be reliable if we have all the evidence - you may wish to come back at that stage for advice off the public forum. I can also advise an experienced Law Firm in the SE who may be able to assist if you prefer, but I think their tarriff (and that is how they work) begins at around £4k for a ticketing matter that has already moved towards prosecution.

 

[island]

Because you changed at St Albans when there are through trains available, your story is getting worse and worse.

 

[LexyBoy]

OP has not said whether or when they noticed the ticket was to St Albans rather than St Pancras, they wrote:

... bought a ticket to St. Albans (thinking I'd bought one for St. Pancras).

 

[island]

True, but not entirely relevant. If the OP's plan was to travel to St. Pancras, why did he/she not take a through train?

 

[SAPhil]

True, but not entirely relevant. If the OP's plan was to travel to St. Pancras, why did he/she not take a through train?

Maybe realised they were on a slow train and changed at St Albans to get the fast one that's usually just behind? That's what I'd do anyway

 

[noclue2]

First off, thankyou to everyone who is looking at this. I really appreciate your time and effort in helping me understand what is going on, it's a really confusing time for me as it seems surreal.

Going to St. Albans and then changing gets to St. Pancras faster if the next train is to St. Albans, otherwise you're stuck waiting for a direct train and there are far more trains going from St. A to St. P than Luton to St. P.

I'm not sure it really matters whether I got on a direct train from Luton or switched at St. Albans, I was between St. Albans and St. Pancras when the controller asked for my ticket. I could have gotten off a non direct and gotten on a direct as all trains from Luton to St P stop at St A.

In terms of history, I haven't been exactly saving up my ticket stubs but I have a software program which tracks all my purchases that I download from my bank. I can print out my last flights out of Luton as I do it once every 3-4 months, and can print out either when I've a bus ticket back, or my purchases for the train from the airport on FCC. Unfortunately it's not a bank statement, it would be a print out from my software program but it has transaction id's and I'd need to be an idiot to present false evidence in a court so maybe a judge would let that weigh on intent.

All in all I'm not in the business of trying to save five or six pounds dodging rail fares, I even buy an z1-2 annual tube travel card so I don't need to worry about topping up. Am also surprised at how serious this is as I don't think I would have gotten away with it. I would have been stopped at the gates and my oyster would have meant I tapped out without tapping in. This has opened up a whole new world to me, I never realized how damaging making a mistake on the ticket bought was.

One last question, my main concern is about having a record, I don't want this to appear on my background and credit checks. If the judge determines that I didn't do this on purpose and wants me to pay whatever is determined appropriate, I'm still guilty and it goes on a record doesn't it?

 

[bb21]

One last question, my main concern is about having a record, I don't want this to appear on my background and credit checks. If the judge determines that I didn't do this on purpose and wants me to pay whatever is determined appropriate, I'm still guilty and it goes on a record doesn't it?

If you end up going to court and then was convicted, you will have a record, with differing severity in terms of future impact on many things. How serious this is partly depends on what you are being prosecuted for. So far you have not mentioned whether they intend to prosecute under the Regulation of Railways Act or the Byelaws. It is a little bit difficult to say what impact it might have without knowing these things.

I appreciate that some people are reluctant to give out such details on a public forum. If so, then make up 5 posts and then you can PM some of the members who are willing to help.

 

[island]

If you had made it to St Pancras you would have been able to touch out your Oyster card with no charge (as it's within your zones) and successfully evaded the payment of the fare.

If you regularly travel on this route, how did you not notice the fare difference of £7.50 (or £4.30 if you claimed the discounts)?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Going to St. Albans and then changing gets to St. Pancras faster if the next train is to St. Albans, otherwise you're stuck waiting for a direct train and there are far more trains going from St. A to St. P than Luton to St. P.

I'm not sure it really matters whether I got on a direct train from Luton or switched at St. Albans, I was between St. Albans and St. Pancras when the controller asked for my ticket. I could have gotten off a non direct and gotten on a direct as all trains from Luton to St P stop at St A.

I'm afraid I still can't see the logic (and probably neither would FCC)....

Going from Luton Airport Parkway and changing means you are either on a fast train to London to start with or you are on an all stations train (which only run half hourly from Luton during the day). The only additional trains to London you would be able to catch from St.Albans to London are half hourly all station reversers. In other words you would be getting off an all stations train in order to catch another all stations train or to catch a fast train that you could have caught from Luton Airport Parkway in the first place.
A question I am sure FCC would ask if things were to go any further.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

One last question, my main concern is about having a record, I don't want this to appear on my background and credit checks. If the judge determines that I didn't do this on purpose and wants me to pay whatever is determined appropriate, I'm still guilty and it goes on a record doesn't it?

A Criminal Record can only arise from a Criminal Conviction. i.e. The matter would have to be a Criminal Offence (under the Regulation of Railways Act (RRA), not a Penalty Fare or a Byelaw Offence) and the Guilt would have to be established by a Court or an admission by you by post in response to a Summons. After a plea of Guilty, the Offender will then be 'Convicted' of the Offence and given a Fine or other Sentence and will be charged the Claim which the Prosecution call their 'costs' plus a Victim Surcharge (VS).

After a plea of Not Guilty, then the Court must listen to the evidence so that the Magistrates can decide whether the person is Guilty or Not - and then, if 'Guilty', they are 'Convicted' and given the Fine or other Sentence plus Costs and VS, whereas if Not Guilty, then they walk away from it all. Only if it was the Criminal RRA Offence will a Criminal Record be recorded.

People sometimes ask if their Conviction for a Railway Offence will appear on the Police National Computer (PNC) as well as resulting in a Criminal Record. This too will depend on exactly which Offence they choose to accuse you of which is another reason for wanting to know this vital fact before giving further advice. If it is the RRA S.5 offence then it can lead to a Criminal Record if it reaches a 'Conviction' and may (though there is some inconsistency here) then appear on the PNC. A Byelaw Offence, even if successfully prosecuted, should not.

If an out-of-court settlement is agreed beforehand then there is no Criminal Record and No entry in the PNC.

 

[noclue2]

Thanks guys.

Regarding the question on going from Luton, I'm not exactly sure what the times are. All trains from Luton going towards London stop at St. Albans but not necessarily St. Pancras. All trains from St. Albans stop at St. Pancras. So when I saw the next train wasn't going direct, I just took it intending to get there faster (it was only 1 or 2 stops before St. Albans and it didn't seem to take long). I got the idea because once when I asked for the fastest way to get to Luton when I was in a rush to catch a plane and I couldn't see when the next train was coming, the ticket counter suggested I take a train to St. Albans and switch out for Luton. What I don't understand is what exactly someone looking to dodge the fair would gain from doing what I did. Is it that there's less of a chance getting caught from St A to St P than Luton to St P? Couldn't someone trying to dodge a fair just ride all the way to St. A comfortably and then make a judgement call on whether they should continue to St. P or get off? I'm guessing someone looking to dodge would try to get their ticket controlled early on the journey, that way they're left alone. Unless I'm missing something, I just don't understand what advantage what I did would have given someone not wanting to be inspected. To clarify, there wouldn't be a doubt I had come from Luton. I had bought my ticket at Luton airport which I have the receipt for and is linked to my card.

Regarding what I'm being accused of, I'm still waiting. All I've been told is that "Having considered the points you have raised i am writing to inform you this department will be going forward with the case." and it's from the prosecutions department.

You're right about St. Pancras being in zone 1 and me being able to touch out, I argued with the guy at the gates because he insisted I use my oyster card to tap out when I wanted to give him the slip of paper I was given in the citation and told to use to exit the station. I had always understood if you don't touch in, you'll be charged the full amount possible on your oyster which I thought made sense.

I appreciate the clarification on the laws "Guilt would have to be established by a Court or an admission by you by post in response to a Summons.". I am not arguing that I didn't have the right ticket, just that it was a mistake, would that mean I should plead guilty?

Again, thanks for all the help!

 

[yorkie]

Regarding the question on going from Luton, I'm not exactly sure what the times are. All trains from Luton going towards London stop at St. Albans but not necessarily St. Pancras.

All trains heading south from Luton go to St Pancras, normally.

All trains from St. Albans stop at St. Pancras. So when I saw the next train wasn't going direct, I just took it intending to get there faster (it was only 1 or 2 stops before St. Albans and it didn't seem to take long)

If this was the case I can only guess at a train fault or engineering works.

I got the idea because once when I asked for the fastest way to get to Luton when I was in a rush to catch a plane and I couldn't see when the next train was coming, the ticket counter suggested I take a train to St. Albans and switch out for Luton.

From where?

What I don't understand is what exactly someone looking to dodge the fair would gain from doing what I did.

Probably true - but FCC appear to have decided that the story is unbelievable, so that point is probably not particularrly relevant.

I had always understood if you don't touch in, you'll be charged the full amount possible on your oyster which I thought made sense.

If using PAYG that is correct, you are charged a maximum cash fare. If using a Travelcard, then no.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm afraid I still can't see the logic (and probably neither would FCC)...

Agreed. It makes no sense.

 

[AlterEgo]

I can really only echo what Yorkie has said. These are questions the Prosecutions Dept will ask themselves. All trains south from Luton Airport Pwy stop at St Pancras. There appears to be no reason to change trains there...unless I'm missing something.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I had always understood if you don't touch in, you'll be charged the full amount possible on your oyster

Ah, so that explains why you were trying to buy a ticket to St Pancras when you only needed one as far as West Hampstead (as your travelcard would cover you from there). The reasons you give all sound very believable, and personally I can't see anything suspicious about changing at St Albans, but I'm sure you can see how FCC might think you were intending to use an "empty sandwich" ticket combination with a short ticket to St Albans at the Luton end and the travelcard to exit at St Pancras at the other. I think it would have been better if you hadn't shown or mentioned the travelcard to the RPI...

 

[Firestarter]

Thanks guys.

Regarding the question on going from Luton, I'm not exactly sure what the times are. All trains from Luton going towards London stop at St. Albans but not necessarily St. Pancras. All trains from St. Albans stop at St. Pancras. So when I saw the next train wasn't going direct, I just took it intending to get there faster (it was only 1 or 2 stops before St. Albans and it didn't seem to take long). I got the idea because once when I asked for the fastest way to get to Luton when I was in a rush to catch a plane and I couldn't see when the next train was coming, the ticket counter suggested I take a train to St. Albans and switch out for Luton. What I don't understand is what exactly someone looking to dodge the fair would gain from doing what I did. Is it that there's less of a chance getting caught from St A to St P than Luton to St P? Couldn't someone trying to dodge a fair just ride all the way to St. A comfortably and then make a judgement call on whether they should continue to St. P or get off? I'm guessing someone looking to dodge would try to get their ticket controlled early on the journey, that way they're left alone. Unless I'm missing something, I just don't understand what advantage what I did would have given someone not wanting to be inspected. To clarify, there wouldn't be a doubt I had come from Luton. I had bought my ticket at Luton airport which I have the receipt for and is linked to my card.

Regarding what I'm being accused of, I'm still waiting. All I've been told is that "Having considered the points you have raised i am writing to inform you this department will be going forward with the case." and it's from the prosecutions department.

You're right about St. Pancras being in zone 1 and me being able to touch out, I argued with the guy at the gates because he insisted I use my oyster card to tap out when I wanted to give him the slip of paper I was given in the citation and told to use to exit the station. I had always understood if you don't touch in, you'll be charged the full amount possible on your oyster which I thought made sense.

I appreciate the clarification on the laws "Guilt would have to be established by a Court or an admission by you by post in response to a Summons.". I am not arguing that I didn't have the right ticket, just that it was a mistake, would that mean I should plead guilty?

Again, thanks for all the help!

I guessing on this particular occassion you were traveling on weekend with enginering work going on because it's on these occasions only where the odd train from luton may not stop at St Pancras and instead terminate at Kentish Town. Which may be causing confusion with other regarding changing trains at St Albans when sometimes your better off staying on the same train.

 

[noclue2]

Hi everyone, I wanted to say thankyou for all your comments. Your replies helped me understand the level of seriousness for the situation. All my colleagues are floored that this has happened and think the situation is ridiculous. A first offense for someone who has been using FCC for 5-6 years, buys annual travel cards, can prove their flight was delayed in and they were late to work, they've taken the same journey before and can show they paid full fair on the same trip before. Someone more skeptical than me can still discount that, most people who meet me know breaking the law to save £5 on a ticket isn't much of a priority in my life.

Ultimately I spoke with the FCC prosecutions manager, Mark Smith, and he and I had a good chat. I'd also spoken with another FCC rep from prosecutions and my feeling is it doesn't matter whether FCC believes it was a mistake or not, their protocol is to take it to court and let the courts decide.

Personally I feel with the evidence I could have produced, a court would have seen this as a mistake and the fine wouldn't have been high. My larger concern was having it appear on my record as this type of stuff looks awful on credit checks. FCC accepted my offer of £110 + fair missed which ends up being roughly £122. I decided not to address the point that the difference from Luton to St Pancras on a gold travel card is roughly £5 instead of buying new fair from St Albans to St Pancras.

For those facing a similar problem, my advice will be to follow the procedure I did, write to the department, expect a rejection, call and leave a message, get a call back telling you who the prosecution manager is, write to the prosecution manager, speak with them on the phone, and then send in your highest offer before you're willing to go to court.

I still think the amount is completely disproportionate to the mistake and will write my MP outlining this, if it saves me taking time off of work and avoiding a guilty conviction then I'll cough up the money and make sure to share my story with others. I really appreciate the support this community has shown both in the for and against and you have given me a lot of your time. Thanks again!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I'm glad to hear that FCC have reached an agreement with you.
We might have hoped for a complete withdrawal of any charges against you, but that was probably never going to be a high probability, especially when the 'confusion' about changing trains is open to so much interpretation by suspicious minds.
It would still have been interesting to read which offence they were preparing to prosecute and with exactly what evidence to support it, but we should probably let the matter drop and move on.

However, if you write to your MP then I'm sure several of us here will be interested to follow that correspondence (and may even be willing to assist in drafting your letter); certainly the legislation used to secure these prosecutions is ancient and arcane, and those using it struggle to distinguish a fare evader from someone perfectly willing to pay.

Thanks for the update.