Does a train have to stop at starting sta of season ticket when multiple routes exist

[clagmonster]

So the journey is from London-Haywards Heath. For ticketing, it is broken into three segments:
London-Shalford (season)
Shalford-Redhill (the same season)
Redhill-Haywards Heath (walk up ticket)

So, referring to condition 19:
"You may use two or more tickets"
We have two tickets.

"for one journey"
Yes, we are making one journey from London-Haywards Heath.

"as long as together they cover the entire journey"
Yes, as described at the start of the post.

"and one of the following applies:
...
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include
Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport
executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not."
Yes, the London-Shalford ticket is a season and the Redhill-Haywards Heath is not.

So I think in this case this is perfectly valid. Note that if the Redhill-Haywards Heath ticket was not present, then we would just have a season, thus no longer staisfying bart c) so the train would have to call at Shalford.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Good thinking; well done So if the journey is just to Dorking or Redhill, the rules are ambiguous/undefined, but if combined with a non-season ticket for travel beyond Redhill it comes under Condition 19 and is allowed.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I would debate that on the basis of.....

....as long as together they cover the entire journey....

.....as there is debate as to the ticket covering trains that do not stop at Shalford.

 

[clagmonster]

I wouldn't say so. The ticket is valid for London-Shalford (via Guildford) and Shalford-Redhill, I presume that you don't dispute that. Therefore, using trains which call at Shalford there would be no argument. Condition c) overrides the need for the train to call at Shalford as there is exactly one season and a non-season.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Ah, but it says that if the tickets cover the entire journey and one of the three conditions apply, in other words, if the tickets don't cover the entire journey then you can't do it.

 

[clagmonster]

Waterloo-Guildford-Shalford is a permitted route.
Shalford-Redhill is on a permitted route.
Which part of the route does the ticket not cover?

Part c) removes the need for the train to call as the passenger has a non-season for travel later in the journey (there is only one season held).

Just to point to a similar, less complicated scenario.
If a passenger holds a Waterloo-Vauxhall season, this would not normally be valid on a train which is fast to Clapham. Hpwever, if combined with a Vauxhall-Clapham walk up ticket, the tickets together cover the entire journey. Do you agree? Sorry if it sounds daft, I'm just trying to establish at what point you cease to agree with the argument about the ticket covering the journey.

Also, I won't have much more time to post today, so appologies in advance if I don't respond to you quickly.

 

[SickyNicky]

I think the complication here is that although the season ticket is physically only one ticket, it's actually being used twice on the journey (once for the journey to Shalford and once for the journey from Shalford.

So does it count as one season ticket or two? You can't combine two seasons in an NRCoC 19 split. I suspect that you probably could defend it's use under the existing conditions - but that it might lead to another NRCoC change :roll:

 

[clagmonster]

Nicky, I agree with what you say. Under all of the rules, it is one season, so this is allowed. I think that it is allowed only because nobody has thought of this scenario before (it can't be used all that often).

 

[SickyNicky]

Yep. And I'm sure it's not the intention that season tickets are used in this manner.

I think it's techically valid at the moment, simply because of the exact wording of the conditions of carriage and the laws about where conditions conflict or are open to interpretation, the most favourable to the consumer should prevail.

But I don't think I would try to use one in this way and I wonder how the guard on the non-stop train would react?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I can see the point you are making, I can see how you are using condition 19. I was only considering that because (afaics) it isn't valid on it's own, so it couldn't be in a combination, that was flawed thinking on my part (not seeing the wood for the trees syndrome).

I think that you are right in that this situation probably wasn't thought of when the rules/conditions were thought of.

 

[clagmonster]

HHF, I agree that if the Redhill-Haywards Heath ticket was not present the combination would not be valid. I also agree that this situation probably wasn't thought of when Condition 19 was written.

A similar case of a combination not valid on its own is A-B and B-C walk ups, where the train stops at A and C but not B. Clearly this combination would not be valid on its own, but if you add in a C-D season it then becomes valid. I believe another member has had confirmation of this from ATOC.

 

[Deerfold]

So does it count as one season ticket or two? You can't combine two seasons in an NRCoC 19 split.

You can use 2 (or more seasons) so long as you are *also* using a non-season.

Can't happen that often though.

EDIT: Oops, no you can't.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

That is incorrect Deerfold, you can use more than one ticket for a longer journey provided they cover the entire journey and one is a season ticket and the other(s) is/are not.

If you had two seasons, irrespective of the number of non-season tickets held, you would have to use trains that stopped at the changeover points unless they are zonal tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use)

Of course, if two seasons were split by a non-season and the train stopped at a station between them and there was a crew change or you changed trains at that point, you might get away with it.

 

[island]

Does that mean you could use a season from Ealing Broadway to London Terminals, a return from Ealing Broadway to Didcot Parkway, and a return from Didcot Parkway to Swansea on a fast FGW service?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Yes you can, as one is a season and the others are not.

 

[Deerfold]

Yes you can, as one is a season and the others are not.

Ah, apologies, yes.

 

[infobleep]

I had a reply from FirstGreatWestern this morning and as I was half expecting they didn't answer my question. I think they misunderstood my e-mail, as they talk about a season ticket from Guildford, even though I started my e-mail:
"I recently purchased a Shalford to London all zones season ticket. "

I my have referred to where I live but where I live is not part of any season ticket restrictions.

I quote their reply, followed by my latest reply:
"Dear Mr Langner

Thank you for your email of 26 September 2011 enquiring about the validity of your Season Ticket from Guildford to London Zones 1-6.

I can confirm that you can travel from Redhill to London on any service following the Reading route and it would not matter whether the train stops at Shalford or no. However you will have to buy an extension ticket from Redhill to Shalford in order to make your through journey.

We also have a dedicated Season Ticket Department who are able to deal with enquiries of this nature. They may be contacted on 08457 000 125, and will be happy to help you.

Thank you again for contacting us.

Yours sincerely

<name removed>"


My latest reply:
" Dear <name removed>

Thank you for getting back to me. I was very grateful. I wasn't enquiring about a season ticket from Guildford but one from Shalford, which is a totally different place with different travelling restrictions.

From Shalford I am allowed to travel via Redhill to London, as well as Guildford. This was confirmed to me by someone with knowledge of the routing guide. Also Southern's season ticket booking Web Site allowed me to travel via RedHill if I wished, when purchasing my last season ticket. Where as Guildford would not.

Therefore my original query still remains. Would I be allowed to travel through Shalford without stopping?

I look forward to your reply and thank you for your help.

Kind regards"

I don't have time to contact their season ticket department right now via the phone but I wanted something in writing anyway. I'm surprised they don't have an e-mail address for the season ticket department.

Kind regards

 

[infobleep]

Hi there

I had a reply from First Great Western and it's a favourable one at that. You can argue whether someone else would have giving the opposite reply, after all even a friend of mine took the view it wouldn't be allowed. Either way I will keep a copy of the e-mail with me when I travel.

Note I didn't actually say I was unhappy when I e-mailed them a second time, I just clarified things.

"Thank you for your further emails of 30 September 2011, and for providing the additional details. I am sorry that you weren't happy with the way we handled your recent enquiry. However, I am grateful that you've taken the time to let us know how you feel.

We take excellent customer service very seriously, and having looked again at your comments and our reply, it is clear that my colleague misunderstood the nature of your enquiry. I apologise for this, and you have my assurance that this matter will be pursued as a training issue with the Advisor concerned.

As per your original enquiry, I can confirm that it would be valid to travel through Shalford on a non-stopping service. This wouldn't necessarily be the case on a daily fare, but it is permitted with the additional flexibility that a season ticket brings.

Thank you again for allowing us another opportunity to explain, and I hope this information has been of help.

Yours sincerely"

So there you go. I hope my enquiries are not going to cause a review of allowable routes from Shalford. I don't actually object to paying for my season ticket but I did find the additional £20.30 each week to visit my parents rather annoying, especially as I could never book more than 7 days in advance and over the course of a year I would be spending a lot more than someone else would spend buying a 52 day season ticket and never travelling again for the rest of the year.

I doubt with smart ticketing it would be any different. They are only interested in giving discounts if you regularly travel to the same place day after day. If only multi-buy discounted train tickets existed, like they do for some bus companies.

Anyway I am very happy with the above reply and it's certainly a better situation than I could have imagined before I enquired. If only I'd looked into this sooner. Over the course of 5 months I reckon I'd have saved over £100, whilst travelling on exactly the same trains.

 

[34D]

That is incorrect Deerfold, you can use more than one ticket for a longer journey provided they cover the entire journey and one is a season ticket and the other(s) is/are not.

If you had two seasons, irrespective of the number of non-season tickets held, you would have to use trains that stopped at the changeover points unless they are zonal tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use)

Of course, if two seasons were split by a non-season and the train stopped at a station between them and there was a crew change or you changed trains at that point, you might get away with it.

Surely its more than "might get away with it"? Agree wouldn't be valid if the non-season didn't have a calling point intermediately.

Example zones 1-6 annual travelcard, Hadley wood-doncaster off peak ticket, and doncaster-york season.

I think we're all agreed that this combination wouldn't be valid on a non-stop kings cross-york train.

I also think we're all agreed that if the train called Doncaster that it would be valid.

However, if the train called only Peterborough, this would depend how literally "one journey" is considered. Certainly, if one changed trains at Peterborough, or put a toe on the platform there, the combination would be valid London-peterborough and peterborough-york.

Fascinating thread guys.

 

[SickyNicky]

Surely its more than "might get away with it"? Agree wouldn't be valid if the non-season didn't have a calling point intermediately.

Example zones 1-6 travelcard, Hadley wood-doncaster off peak ticket, and doncaster-york season.

I think we're all agreed that this combination wouldn't be valid on a non-stop kings cross-york train.

I also think we're all agreed that if the train called Doncaster that it would be valid.

However, if the train called only Peterborough, this would depend how literally "one journey" is considered. Certainly, if one changed trains at Peterborough, or put a toe on the platform there, the combination would be valid London-peterborough and peterborough-york.

Fascinating thread guys.

If the travelcard were not a season, I believe this would be a valid combination of tickets for a non stop journey under NRCoC 19c.

 

[34D]

If the travelcard were not a season, I believe this would be a valid combination of tickets for a non stop journey under NRCoC 19c.

I've clarified that the travelcard is a season - thought that would have been obvious.

But yes, if the travelcard was not a season (so journey was 1 season and 3 non-seasons) this would unambiguously be clear.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Surely its more than "might get away with it"? Agree wouldn't be valid if the non-season didn't have a calling point intermediately.

Example zones 1-6 annual travelcard, Hadley wood-doncaster off peak ticket, and doncaster-york season.

I think we're all agreed that this combination wouldn't be valid on a non-stop kings cross-york train.

I also think we're all agreed that if the train called Doncaster that it would be valid.

However, if the train called only Peterborough, this would depend how literally "one journey" is considered. Certainly, if one changed trains at Peterborough, or put a toe on the platform there, the combination would be valid London-peterborough and peterborough-york.

Fascinating thread guys.

I think this may depend on a few factors, namely, what is your 'journey', where are your tickets checked, so on.

In your London-York example, even if the train stopped at Doncaster, if your ticket was checked twice, once before the train stops at Doncaster and once afterwards, by the same member of staff they may remember you had a season for the first part of the journey, granted it is a small chance, but never-the-less, there is a chance. At this point you would have to argue that your 'journey' ended at Doncaster (or before) and a new 'journey' started there. If not the train would also have to stop at Hadley Wood.