i think virgin should get the new west coast franchise

[Lampshade]

5-car 175's (with a shop and First Class)...

That's called a 180

 

[ivanhoe]

To be honest, what difference will it make anyway as to which of the 4 Companies win the franchise. Same trains, same staff (that passengers see anyway), similar timetables.
Virgin are good at publicity. That is what makes them tick and makes them different.

As X Country driver stated, whatever the colour of the trains, the same drivers and on board staff will still be booked on the trains.The only thing that would change for the majority of passengers is the colour of the Uniforms and the signs at Virgin stations, should they lose the bid. I am quite neutral as to the outcome, but I would be surprised if Virgin lost the franchise!

 

[Whistler40145]

I agree, it doesn't matter what livery the Pendolinos & Voyagers are painted in & what the staff uniforms look like, it's the quality of service to us customers that matters.

 

[bILLOO]

I don't think VT are that bad, but I'm not a fan of their timetable (not sure if it's their fault or not?). That should really add stops back to Rugby (and maybe MKC), rather than making MKC, Northampton & Rugby passengers travel via BNS in order to get to various destinations north.

 

[Whistler40145]

Just like Preston/Glasgows not serving Crewe.

 

[MCR247]

Makes me laugh when people go on about Branson, he might be the face of the Virgin brand but as far as I am aware he has nothing to do with the day to day running of Virgin Trains.

Surely not?! Didn't he specify the 390 windows to look like plane windows so it would be like Virgin Atlantic?! hock:

 

[WestCoast]

Surely not?! Didn't he specify the 390 windows to look like plane windows so it would be like Virgin Atlantic?! hock:

'Allegedly', yes. :roll: He doesn't really have very much daily input into the airline either and that isn't performing fantastically.

 

[harz99]

As X Country driver stated, whatever the colour of the trains, the same drivers and on board staff will still be booked on the trains.The only thing that would change for the majority of passengers is the colour of the Uniforms and the signs at Virgin stations, should they lose the bid. I am quite neutral as to the outcome, but I would be surprised if Virgin lost the franchise!

Exactly; you'll still have the same people in control who last night refused to do anything for pax at the intermediate stations north of Lancaster awaiting travel on very late running trains ex London towards or into Scotland. Pax just had to lump it and wait for their original services, which in some cases meant late running in excess of 75 minutes.

Ex Birmingham services running on time but stop orders - no chance; more concerned with performance figures than the customer.

Personally I don't care who runs the service; what matters to me is that it runs to time and when disruption happens the TOC actually helps its customers get to their destination by any means it can. Oh and a much needed upgrade to the seating on both Pendo's and Voyagers would be very welcome.

 

[whhistle]

Quite. Virgin have control over their stations though: half haven't changed since BR's days...

It's not that easy though.
Stations are still owned by Network Rail, Virgin simply run them. Many are also listed structures and obviously things like planning permission needs to be sought and granted before anything can happen.


While many people seem not to like Virgin, you are impartial as you prefer loco hauled stock from the 1980's :P Try and see it from a commuter side, new trains, faster, granted they can be smelly, but not always.

Yes I agree, someone else *might* do better, but look at who contenders (despite the pre-qualifying people are) could be:

• East Coast - Government owned so doesn't count.
• National Express - From the rumours of NXEA and the whole East Coast fiasco, I don't think so.
• First Group - They aren't exactly shining in quality with Great Western.
• Stagecoach - Said it once, I'll say it again, East Midlands Trains people seem to look sad these days.
• Arriva - Ha haa ha.

Not exactly the best list of contenders now is it. But if anyone else can pick a worthy franchisee then please, display it here with your reasons. Remember, Virgin is British owned, where as I believe every other TOC is owned or mostly owned by another country.

Overall, Virgin have improved the West Coast significantly and they should be rewarded with another franchise. It's not about who can do better but rewarding those who do well.

Then again, perhaps I don't understand the reasons behind the hate for Virgin Trains. They are by no means perfect, but then currently I would say no TOC is.

and they have some very rude/ demanding staff, especially on the manchester trains (have a look at the amount of negative comments on their facebook page!)

You must also remember that many people only comment when they have received "not great" service.
You will probably find the amount of people who are "satisfied" with Virgin will far outweigh those who aren't.

You are quite correct, and its a good question.
The short answer is that, in my opinion, they (Virgin / Stagecoach) simply ran it as a bus company runs a franchised service: i.e. balancing the minimum expenditure against marketing opportunities for improved revenue at low cost, and a barely adequate shareholder dividend.
None of those objectives are what I would prefer to see from a TOC's interest in its operation.

True, and I do agree with you. However I would urge you to remember that train companies are businesses these days.
Gone are the says where it is a pure "service". They are in it to make money, and as I am sure you will know by now, money makes the world go round. The sooner people realise this, the better.

Staff transfer

Not all employees.
If there is a new administration, then things could change very easily. Some companies I know are cut-throat when it comes to firing people. If a company wants you out, they will get you out. For instance, you book on late on duty, it's a warning. You turn up without perfect uniform, that's another uniform. These things cannot be contested by Unions as you agree to them in your contract.
Culls happen more than people realise.

It's a sealed bid....
So everything that has been mentioned so far in this thread is utterly and totally irrelevant in terms of actually awarding the new franchise. Completely.

At last! Someone who actually speaks sense and has a better view on things! Give this man a coconut!

 

[S19]

I love the Voyager and Pendolino bashing. It's often portrayed on here that any passenger who uses them hates them.

In my opinion it's mostly only enthusiasts that really dislike the stock Virgin use, so isn't that much of an argument.

Most people are happy for a fast service with good customer service. Which is what Virgin are good at.

I hope they keep it, I'm not really an enthusiast but always look forward to my speedy Pendolino from Lancaster to London every month.

 

[Schnellzug]

It's not that easy though.
Stations are still owned by Network Rail, Virgin simply run them. Many are also listed structures and obviously things like planning permission needs to be sought and granted before anything can happen.


While many people seem not to like Virgin, you are impartial as you prefer loco hauled stock from the 1980's :P Try and see it from a commuter side, new trains, faster, granted they can be smelly, but not always.

Yes I agree, someone else *might* do better, but look at who contenders (despite the pre-qualifying people are) could be:

• East Coast - Government owned so doesn't count.
• National Express - From the rumours of NXEA and the whole East Coast fiasco, I don't think so.
• First Group - They aren't exactly shining in quality with Great Western.
• Stagecoach - Said it once, I'll say it again, East Midlands Trains people seem to look sad these days.
• Arriva - Ha haa ha.

Not exactly the best list of contenders now is it. But if anyone else can pick a worthy franchisee then please, display it here with your reasons.

And that is a completely impartial and not at all subjective in any way assessment, isn't it. "Arriva; ha ha ha haaaa".

Remember, Virgin is British owned, where as I believe every other TOC is owned or mostly owned by another country.
!

And what difference does that make? We're always told that the Dutch, Germans, French etc always do everything so much better, aren't we? And, I don't know if you have noticed, First and Stagecoach you refer to above, are British owned, unless you do count Scotland as a foreign country now.

 

[All Line Rover]

That's called a 180

No, I mean a modified version of the 175's. Although the 180's are nice, I have a slight preference for the 175's. I don't really know why! They were both built by Alstom - at around the same time - and have almost identical interiors and Standard Class seating. Perhaps it's because the 175's are more reliable? Both are nice trains in my opinion.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not all employees.
If there is a new administration, then things could change very easily. Some companies I know are cut-throat when it comes to firing people. If a company wants you out, they will get you out. For instance, you book on late on duty, it's a warning. You turn up without perfect uniform, that's another uniform. These things cannot be contested by Unions as you agree to them in your contract.
Culls happen more than people realise.

I too worry about the staff (and the salaries). SNCF and Abellio are not exactly renowned for paying their staff "decent" salaries. They wouldn't be able to lower salaries if they won the franchise, but might be less generous with the pay rises in comparison to Virgin!

I also don't buy the argument that "all jobs will be transferred." What if the new operator decides install rows upon rows of ticket machines and cut staff at ticket offices? (This certainly wouldn't improve the passenger experience, but they might do it). What if the new operator decides to reduce the First Class offering significantly - so much so that only one member of staff is needed for each Pendolino? That would mean significant job losses, as a large proportion of Virgin's staff are First Class hosts.

 

[Greenback]

I also don't buy the argument that "all jobs will be transferred." What if the new operator decides install rows upon rows of ticket machines and cut staff at ticket offices? (This certainly wouldn't improve the passenger experience, but they might do it). What if the new operator decides to reduce the First Class offering significantly - so much so that only one member of staff is needed for each Pendolino? That would mean significant job losses, as a large proportion of Virgin's staff are First Class hosts.

All jobs will be transferred, that's the law. A new franchise holder may cut jobs, but there is no guarantee that Virgin won't decide to cut jobs either.

That would be making people redundant, rather than a new company deciding who they will and won;t re-employ, or making staff re-apply for their jobs as a result of the transfer of ownership.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

No, I mean a modified version of the 175's. Although the 180's are nice, I have a slight preference for the 175's. I don't really know why! They were both built by Alstom - at around the same time - and have almost identical interiors and Standard Class seating. Perhaps it's because the 175's are more reliable? Both are nice trains in my opinion.

I must confess that when I set up the thread recently about ATW Class 175 not having first class accomodation, I expected about 5/6 postings in reply. I was amazed to see how many postings that were actually made by forum members on this thread.

 

[All Line Rover]

And that is a completely impartial and not at all subjective in any way assessment, isn't it. "Arriva; ha ha ha haaaa".

What else do you expect? Arriva CrossCountry doesn't exactly have a sterling record!

Point 1:

• Complaint:They remove the shop and replace it with a luggage area.
• Arriva Ambassadors: But Arriva HAD to do that because stupid Virgin ordered small trains which are always overcrowded, so extra capacity was needed!
• Response:Maybe so, but I've never seen many suitcases in that luggage area - it's almost always empty. Why? Because people like to have their luggage close to them - not in a different carriage! They should have kept the shop - it would have pleased customers and kept jobs at the same time.

Point 2:

• Complaint:There are not enough cheap Advance fares available!
• Arriva Ambassadors: But Arriva HAVE to do that because stupid Virgin ordered small trains which are always overcrowded, meaning that there is no spare capacity for which to sell Advance tickets!
• Response: I don't buy that argument at all. When travelling (in Standard Class) on the CrossCountry network during the mid-morning/early afternoon, there are plenty of seats available - particularly between Manchester and Birmingham, and Birmingham and Bristol. I am travelling on very cheap tickets (), but when I go and check what Advance tickets are available, there aren't any cheap ones! As has already been revealed, Arriva don't even bother selling the cheapest Advance fares on certain days! Are they seriously suggesting that every single train from Manchester to Bristol on Fridays is so packed that charging £31.50 for Standard Class and £116.50 for First Class is justified? I don't think so... Arriva are also cheeky in the way that they price Advance fares so, so close to the price of the appropriate "walk on" ticket.

I could go on, but it would take too long... :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

All jobs will be transferred, that's the law. A new franchise holder may cut jobs, but there is no guarantee that Virgin won't decide to cut jobs either.

That would be making people redundant, rather than a new company deciding who they will and won;t re-employ, or making staff re-apply for their jobs as a result of the transfer of ownership.

Of course, but making people redundant a few weeks after "transferring" them isn't much better than not bothering to "transfer" them in the first place!

I would be very surprised it Virgin cut jobs, as they still hire people week in, week out. The contracts are only temporary (most until March 2012, for obvious reasons), but it looks highly likely that Virgin will employ even more people for permanent jobs if they won the franchise.

A new franchise holder could just close the doors to new applicants, and not replace staff who retire/leave, steadily reducing the size of their workforce.

 

[Minilad]

What else do you expect? Arriva CrossCountry doesn't exactly have a sterling record!

Point 1:

• Complaint:They remove the shop and replace it with a luggage area.
• Arriva Ambassadors: But Arriva HAD to do that because stupid Virgin ordered small trains which are always overcrowded, so extra capacity was needed!
• Response:Maybe so, but I've never seen many suitcases in that luggage area - it's almost always empty. Why? Because people like to have their luggage close to them - not in a different carriage! They should have kept the shop - it would have pleased customers and kept jobs at the same time.

Point 2:

• Complaint:There are not enough cheap Advance fares available!
• Arriva Ambassadors: But Arriva HAVE to do that because stupid Virgin ordered small trains which are always overcrowded, meaning that there is no spare capacity for which to sell Advance tickets!
• Response: I don't buy that argument at all. When travelling (in Standard Class) on the CrossCountry network during the mid-morning/early afternoon, there are plenty of seats available - particularly between Manchester and Birmingham, and Birmingham and Bristol. I am travelling on very cheap tickets (), but when I go and check what Advance tickets are available, there aren't any cheap ones! As has already been revealed, Arriva don't even bother selling the cheapest Advance fares on certain days! Are they seriously suggesting that every single train from Manchester to Bristol on Fridays is so packed that charging £31.50 for Standard Class and £116.50 for First Class is justified? I don't think so... Arriva are also cheeky in the way that they price Advance fares so, so close to the price of the appropriate "walk on" ticket.

I could go on, but it would take too long... :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Of course, but making people redundant a few weeks after "transferring" them isn't much better than not bothering to "transfer" them in the first place!

I would be very surprised it Virgin cut jobs, as they still hire people week in, week out. The contracts are only temporary (most until March 2012, for obvious reasons), but it looks highly likely that Virgin will employ even more people for permanent jobs if they won the franchise.

A new franchise holder could just close the doors to new applicants, and not replace staff who retire/leave, steadily reducing the size of their workforce.

Wow. Just wow. If I was Virgin I would employ you as their own personal cheerleader

 

[Greenback]

A new franchise holder could just close the doors to new applicants, and not replace staff who retire/leave, steadily reducing the size of their workforce.

Yes, they could do that, and a lot of other things as well. So could Virgin, nd they would if they thought they had to in order to make money out of the franchise - if for example, it's the only way to meet the terms of the franchise and make a profit.

It's only your opinion that they wouldn't, based on your admiration for the company! Or as I prefer to call it, naive faith!

 

[All Line Rover]

Yes, they could do that, and a lot of other things as well. So could Virgin, nd they would if they thought they had to in order to make money out of the franchise - if for example, it's the only way to meet the terms of the franchise and make a profit.

It's only your opinion that they wouldn't, based on your admiration for the company! Or as I prefer to call it, naive faith!

We'll see, we'll see. A await to be proved wrong. If they had to reduce the size of their workforce to meet the terms of the new franchise, I'd be blaming the DafT! :roll:

 

[tbtc]

Of course, but making people redundant a few weeks after "transferring" them isn't much better than not bothering to "transfer" them in the first place!

Yes, the Trades Unions usually sit idly by when TOCs try to cut down on staff numbers... I'm sure there'd be no problem for any TOC trying to lay off large numbers of people (and employ any new ones on weaker contracts than existing staff). I don't know why nobody's thought of this already.

 

[Greenback]

There have been redundancies in the past few years - unions don't really oppose voluntary redundancy that strongly.

 

[virgintrain1]

British Rail did quite a bit to modernise the West Coast: They electrified it, for a start

I'm in agreement that I would like to see Virgin retain the West Coast franchise. They have developed a strong brand image amongst the public (Witness how many people I have heard referring to Crosscountry Trains services as "Virgin") that is much more far reaching than just within the rail industry thanks to their parent company, and they offer a good level of service. If it ain't broke, don't try and fix it!

Yes I see that a lot, e.g. I was on a late running cross country service and the train manger was saying chance at Birmingham and get a virgin service, nearly every one said but this Virgin isn't it?

 

[FManc]

All jobs will be transferred, that's the law. A new franchise holder may cut jobs, but there is no guarantee that Virgin won't decide to cut jobs either.

That would be making people redundant, rather than a new company deciding who they will and won;t re-employ, or making staff re-apply for their jobs as a result of the transfer of ownership.

From what I was told during training for Virgin, any new franchise holder would have to keep ex.Virgin staff for at least 2 years. No-one really knows what is going to happen whether Virgin retain or lose the franchise, but either way they'll be big changes.

 

[Schnellzug]

Wow. Just wow. If I was Virgin I would employ you as their own personal cheerleader

I hear that that's actually what they'll provide at every station if the franchise is renewed; a team of cheerleaders to welcome every train. And they'll provide puppies for everyone.

 

[WestCoast]

I hear that that's actually what they'll provide at every station if the franchise is renewed; a team of cheerleaders to welcome every train. And they'll provide puppies for everyone.

Well, considering how grim some of their WCML stations are south of Preston, it will be an improvement! The waiting rooms and passageways at Wigan NW and Warrington Bank Quay look like they've not seen a bit of TLC since BR days, they remind me of an abandoned asylum.

 

[HSTEd]

I hear that that's actually what they'll provide at every station if the franchise is renewed; a team of cheerleaders to welcome every train. And they'll provide puppies for everyone.

Can they provide teams of puppies to welcome every train and provide cheerleaders to everyone instead?

 

[Whistler40145]

Not unless Virgin is now Andrex!

 

[harz99]

Well, considering how grim some of their WCML stations are south of Preston, it will be an improvement! The waiting rooms and passageways at Wigan NW and Warrington Bank Quay look like they've not seen a bit of TLC since BR days, they remind me of an abandoned asylum.

This is Virgin, customer care is not their forte!

Waiting at EUS two Fridays ago to board the 1757 GLC service, scorchingly hot day, made worse by the glass roof over the main concourse, and we waited until 9 minutes before departure before the platform was announced.

And still they insisted on doing a full barrier check - result people having to struggle through a moving train with luggage due to the delay boarding.

 

[martinsh]

I hear that that's actually what they'll provide at every station if the franchise is renewed; a team of cheerleaders to welcome every train. And they'll provide puppies for everyone.

I don't like puppies - can I have a small cow instead ?:roll:

 

[WestCoast]

I don't like puppies - can I have a small cow instead ?:roll:

"You can have any animal as long it's a puppy" - adapted from Henry Ford's marketing principles.

Seriously though, Virgin do love their publicity stunts and I reckon there will be a few more coming along in the near future. 'Style over substance' often comes to mind with Virgin I'm afraid. They haven't done badly at all, but are they the greatest thing ever? No.

All empires eventually collapse - will it be Virgin's time? We shall see.

 

[Lampshade]

This is Virgin, customer care is not their forte!

Waiting at EUS two Fridays ago to board the 1757 GLC service, scorchingly hot day, made worse by the glass roof over the main concourse, and we waited until 9 minutes before departure before the platform was announced.

And still they insisted on doing a full barrier check - result people having to struggle through a moving train with luggage due to the delay boarding.

They love putting 'Being prepared' up on the boards until the last possible moment. What are they preparing exactly? And why does it take them so long?