UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[Bald Rick]

Last sentence - Do you think this is why VAT on Electricity and Gas (as in down a pipe not US petrol) has been removed ?.

No, that’s a cost of living measure.

 

[Snow1964]

Last sentence - Do you think this is why VAT on Electricity and Gas (as in down a pipe not US petrol) has been removed ?.

No, that’s a cost of living measure.

Temporary for 6 months I think, over the winter.

However it does demonstrate how rushed, soundbite policies don't fully work as intended, because it is a bonus to everyone who charges a car at home (which tends to be those who have bought a house with a driveway), not the poorer living in flats and maisonettes and old terraced houses where home chargers can't be fitted.

But really, rather than short term tax break subsidies, after being in power 2 years, Labour should be tackling the electricity wholesale price problem that's linked to gas power stations. (and of course, most of the gas power stations opened under previous Labour Government)

 

[quantinghome]

You have sort of learnt the mpg rule of thumb, over time

For EVs a rule of thumb would be
4 - 4.2 miles per KWh normally, 4.3 - 4.8 on favourable roads

small cars, bit more normally, say 4.1 - 4.4 miles per KWh
all EVs less in very cold weather 3.5 - 3.8 (due to electric heating)

So very roughly, if you use 4 as rule of thumb, then multiply 4 by battery size gives normal realistic range (or use 3.5 times on cold winter days)

Hope this helps

or perhaps easier to think 100 miles needs 25 KWh
or £1.70 - £2.20 for 100 miles on overnight electricity (at 6.8 - 9p per unit)

£1.70 - £2.20 of petrol or diesel would probably only get you 6-8 miles, not 100 miles

That's roughly my rule of thumb for comparing different cars - 3 mpkwh is very thirsty, 4 is OK, 4.5 is good, 5 exceptional.

But there's a big difference for an individual car depending on the journey:

It should be noted that EVs are particularly efficient (especially in comparison to ICE vehicles) in stop start traffic in urban areas.

I have found speed to have a much more significant effect than cold weather. Because of battery braking and no transmission losses to speak of the only factor to change mileage efficiency is air resistance.

A tale of two weekends - a week last Sunday I drove predominantly on motorways at 70mph with minimal traffic and got 3.6; this Saturday we had another long distance drive but on slower A roads and got over 4.5, so it's a big difference. Cold weather may drop it by 0.2 or 0.3, in part due to using the heater.

 

[Bikeman78]

As I said used to. I now live in the ex local authority 3 bed semi. But like the vast majority of cheap current or former council houses in suburban and out of town locations it does have a driveway.

I also have a three bedroom semi with a driveway. I'm about to spend my savings on solar panels and a battery so it will be quite a while before I can afford another car.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I've just compared the meerkat for a Geely ex5. Most of the quotes were coming in between £400 - £500 for a year. That compares to prices around £250 pa for my 13 year old Auris and around £340 for a 25 plate Corolla, so a little more expensive, but nothing like the £3.6k you're suggesting.

Age of driver ?.

Back in the days when I worked at an insurance company (1990s) young drivers, particularly male, got silly quotes - basically in the hope they went away and became someone elses risk. Other insurers just used to decline.

 

[AM9]

I agree but actually you can park across your own dropped curb. So one space in the road that has to be shared could become my own (unshared) three spaces (two on the garden plus one on the road). I learnt from Croydon Council that if you register you car with them or at the address then parking fines are either not issued or (more likely) rescinded upon appeal. Somethijg to that effect. So I would end up with my own personal space on the road AND two spaces for visitors on the garden. The pressure is on to do it before the council "improve" the parking situation by putting in a residents parking scheme !.

Actually in some areas parking across a dropped kerb (including 'crossover dropped kerb's which is the term for those that are for access to an off-road parking bay), is deemed an offence whoever's vehicle does the parking, on the grounds that it denies those needing accessible means to cross the road. That would be more likely where a street is almost permanently lined with parked vehicles. When having a kerb dropped, the documentation makes it clear that the road by ones dropped kerb is not a private parking space. One way the some LAs constrain the tendency for dropped kerbs occuring at every house is to mandate at least (ISTR) 5.0m between the ends of adjacent dropped kerbs*. Not normally a problem, but can occur around tight bends and where properties have quite narrow frontages - typically less than 8-9 metres.
* That is also to allow a single typical vehicle of that length to park.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Actually in some areas parking across a dropped kerb (including 'crossover dropped kerb's which is the term for those that are for access to an off-road parking bay), is deemed an offence whoever's vehicle does the parking, on the grounds that it denies those needing accessible means to cross the road. That would be more likely where a street is almost permanently lined with parked vehicles. When having a kerb dropped, the documentation makes it clear that the road by ones dropped kerb is not a private parking space. One way the some LAs constrain the tendency for dropped kerbs occuring at every house is to mandate at least (ISTR) 5.0m between the ends of adjacent dropped kerbs*. Not normally a problem, but can occur around tight bends and where properties have quite narrow frontages - typically less than 8-9 metres.
* That is also to allow a single typical vehicle of that length to park.

Ouch. Where I am thinking that five metres non-dropped curb would mean only every other house could have a dropped curb !.

 

[AM9]

Ouch. Where I am thinking that five metres non-dropped curb would mean only every other house could have a dropped curb !.

Can't speak for Croydon, but it was St Albans that I saw it from, - and there are plenty of houses that wouldn't all accommodate such an undropped kerb here - especially in the conservation areas.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Can't speak for Croydon, but it was St Albans that I saw it from, - and there are plenty of houses that wouldn't all accommodate such an undropped kerb here - especially in the conservation areas.

It is one of the things to bear in mind with EVs. Local council legislation/rules might preclude all sort of things in only some areas. I wonder if curb side chargers will be allowed in some areas and not others.

Certainly I can see home charging putting more pressure on people to desire a concreted over garden on top of just needing a more reliable parking space. As I have said before EVs are not really going to reduce the amount of car usage which would be nice. Except perhaps by making EVs less affordable for those less well of with no where to home charge. Though I suspect long term public chargers will get cheaper to a certain extent.

 

[Snow1964]

Seems there is more EV hubs soon, as Roadchef (that runs 31 motorway and trunk road services) has done deal with BP pulse to increase the chargers to 1000

Roadchef has agreed a new partnership with bp covering electric vehicle (EV) charging, fuels and convenience services across the UK motorway network.

From 2027, bp pulse’s ultra-fast charging will be available at more than 30 Roadchef motorway service areas across the UK’s strategic road network.

The deal supports the company’s target of delivering 1,000 EV charging bays by 2030, as demand for en-route charging grows alongside the UK’s transition to zero-emission vehicles.

Tim Gittins, Chief Executive of Roadchef, said: “It will also bring bp-branded forecourts under Roadchef’s operation, strengthening our fuel and convenience food offer for leisure and HGV drivers. Together, these changes will help us serve more drivers and give the business the scale and capability to meet the growing demand for EV charging across the UK.”

Roadchef operates 31 motorway and trunk road service areas across the UK, which it says receive more than 48 million visitors each year.

Roadchef puts EV charging on the menu - Energy Live News

bp pulse ultra-fast charging will arrive at more than 30 Roadchef motorway sites from 2027

www.energylivenews.com

Meanwhile for those preferring something more akin to an upmarket farm shop, the new Chicklade hub on A303 to South West will have butchers, bakery, deli, and shop

A combined butcher, bakery and deli has been confirmed for EV charging operator InstaVolt's Chicklade hub on the A303 in Wiltshire, set to launch in March 2027.

Chickpea Provisions, run by Salisbury's Chickpea Group, will open from 6am to 10pm and serve everything from breakfast to evening snacks.

The Chicklade hub is set to bring 30 ultra-rapid 240kW chargers to the busy route between London and the South West, linking the M3 with Somerset, Devon and Cornwall.

Retail store with butcher, bakery and deli confirmed for Wiltshire EV charging hub - Insider Media

A combined butcher, bakery and deli has been confirmed for EV charging operator InstaVolt's Chicklade hub on the A303 in Wiltshire, set to launch in March 2027.

www.insidermedia.com

The growth in hubs with lots of ultra-rapid chargers on main routes (although not cheap compared to home charging) should help kill off those you still push the range anxiety mantra

 

[jon0844]

I think we've long moved on from range anxiety issues. Now the issues are simply checking for the best price and convenience.

In many cases, people stopping are not limited by the time to charge the car but rather the time to do other things before the car is charged.

 

[Kumquat]

My local London petrol station has finally opened its EV chargers, which were meant to be done by April but someone messed up the docs relating to moving a fuel pipe... 55p per kWh, which Google tells me is about 8 miles per £. At £2 per litre of diesel, that's about the same price per mile.

There's plenty of other local chargers - Lidl round the corner is 40p with their app, lamppost ones on my street apparently down to 33p, and many neighbours just run a charger out the window across the pavement, judging that few people will worry about the trip hazard late at night, once a week or less.

The only reason I don't have a EV is a seven-seater was still unaffordable when I needed to upgrade to something ULEZ-compliant. Tbh, if I could reliably hire a 7-seater as needed for under £600 per weekend, I might not need that, but I can't.

 

[jon0844]

The Kia PV5 may work as a good 7 seater option when it's been out a while and they're available on the second hand market. It gets rave reviews in every configuration.

 

[Bald Rick]

55p per kWh, which Google tells me is about 8 miles per £. At £2 per litre of diesel, that's about the same price per mile.

55p/kWh is about 7-8 miles per £. At £2/litre for diesel, to get to 7-8miles per £ you need to average 63-72mpg.

 

[Snow1964]

The UK September new cars data will be out in a few days, and September is always a big month in UK due to registration plate change.

Meanwhile Ireland September figures are out
BEV Battery Electric 27.43%
PHEV plug in hybrid 14.93%
HEV hybrid petrol 23.68%
petrol 19.59%
diesel 12.36%

September new electric car registrations soar 80% - SIMI

New figures from the Society of the Irish Motor Industry show an 80% jump in the number of new electric cars registered in September compared to the same time last year.

www.rte.ie

 

[Noddy]

The UK September new cars data will be out in a few days, and September is always a big month in UK due to registration plate change.

Meanwhile Ireland September figures are out
BEV Battery Electric 27.43%
PHEV plug in hybrid 14.93%
HEV hybrid petrol 23.68%
petrol 19.59%
diesel 12.36%

September new electric car registrations soar 80% - SIMI

New figures from the Society of the Irish Motor Industry show an 80% jump in the number of new electric cars registered in September compared to the same time last year.

www.rte.ie

12% diesel??!!

 

[Snow1964]

12% diesel??!!

In Ireland yes, in the far west many areas are very rural and quite a few miles from nearest fuel station and some are more functional vehicles to drive down lanes than comfortable cars. The tax system is different too.

Remember the numbers of new cars are low compared to UK, just 6342 new vehicles for September. Ireland also imported 8326 used cars in September. I wonder if that means having a holiday in Ireland, selling car there (and flying back) is better way to sell some UK cars that rubbish prices for certain models might get here (especially if it is in car Ireland VRT vehicle registration tax band)

 

[Kumquat]

In Ireland yes, in the far west many areas are very rural and quite a few miles from nearest fuel station and some are more functional vehicles to drive down lanes than comfortable cars. The tax system is different too.

Remember the numbers of new cars are low compared to UK, just 6342 new vehicles for September. Ireland also imported 8326 used cars in September. I wonder if that means having a holiday in Ireland, selling car there (and flying back) is better way to sell some UK cars that rubbish prices for certain models might get here (especially if it is in car Ireland VRT vehicle registration tax band)

It's already worth a weekend in the countryside if you live in London and you want to sell a non-ULEZ-compliant car.

 

[Snow1964]

Preliminary info on September new car sales from SMMT Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders, nearly 100,000 EVs, 28.3% battery electric

Full data expected Monday

• New car market grows 12.1% to 350,518 units in plate-change September – the 10th consecutive month of growth and strongest September since 2017.
• Record 99,199 battery electric cars join the road – almost 5 every minute – as buyers respond to greater model choice, manufacturer incentives and government grants.

Record electric car market powers bumper September - SMMT

SMMT preliminary figures are subject to change. Full and final figures published Monday 5 October, 9am. The UK new car market accelerated in September, with registrations up 12.1% to 350,518 units, according...

www.smmt.co.uk

 

[Mawkie]

Preliminary info on September new car sales from SMMT Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders, nearly 100,000 EVs, 28.3% battery electric

Full data expected Monday

Interesting data yet again!


For all the anti-Tesla talk around, they're selling 2.5 times as many cars as the next highest brand (BYD) and model for model, 3 times as many (no doubt helped by the 0% finance deals and other incentives).

 

[jon0844]

I think the fuss over Elon has mostly died down. While he's still causing issues on social media, he has stepped back a bit from politics of late. With cracking finance deals, it doesn't surprise me that Tesla is still able to sell cars.

It seems Elon might even announce the new Roadster soon, although I doubt it will be anything like he described five or more years ago.

 

[Bald Rick]

It’s odd because I’m not seeing many new Teslas round here.

 

[jon0844]

It’s odd because I’m not seeing many new Teslas round here.

There are loads near me, and sadly many are 24-26 plates which means most owners are fully aware of Elon at his worst.

 

[Mawkie]

There are loads near me, and sadly many are 24-26 plates which means most owners are fully aware of Elon at his worst.

I find people are fairly selective about which particular aspect of a manufacturer they dislike. The people I speak to at work moan about Elon "being a nazi". I'm not sure anyone believes that.

They seem to have forgotten the role German manufacturers played in WWII, and of course the disgraceful Diesel-gate scandal that VW found itself embroiled in.

As they zoom around in their BYDs and MGs, I ask them if they are happy supporting the Chinese regime, who continue to have a diabolical human rights record, surely much worse that Elon's hand gestures.

 

[Noddy]

For all the anti-Tesla talk around, they're selling 2.5 times as many cars as the next highest brand (BYD) and model for model, 3 times as many (no doubt helped by the 0% finance deals and other incentives).

Not according to New Automotice they’re not:



This is taken from their August figures but according to that they’re not selling 2.5 times as many cars as any of the other brands in the 10 ten. In top model lists Teslas normally come out on top but they only have two models. Most other manufacturers have multiple models and multiple brands.

 

[birchesgreen]

I find people are fairly selective about which particular aspect of a manufacturer they dislike. The people I speak to at work moan about Elon "being a nazi". I'm not sure anyone believes that.

They seem to have forgotten the role German manufacturers played in WWII, and of course the disgraceful Diesel-gate scandal that VW found itself embroiled in.

As they zoom around in their BYDs and MGs, I ask them if they are happy supporting the Chinese regime, who continue to have a diabolical human rights record, surely much worse that Elon's hand gestures.

Well to be fair there is more to hate on Elon than his raised arm.

Personally i find the fact he destroyed US AID which has resulted in the deaths of 1000s of children somewhat worse.

 

[Snow1964]

It’s odd because I’m not seeing many new Teslas round here.

There are loads near me, and sadly many are 24-26 plates which means most owners are fully aware of Elon at his worst.

Tesla have rather an uneven geographic spread of their dealers, and superchargers. No one wants a car where nearest service centre is 50+ miles away

As an example of big gaps, there are no Tesla dealers in Wiltshire, and no superchargers in Dorset

 

[Bald Rick]

There are loads near me, and sadly many are 24-26 plates which means most owners are fully aware of Elon at his worst.

Guess what, I saw 2 x Tesla Y’s in the last half hour with 76 plates.

 

[trebor79]

Tesla have rather an uneven geographic spread of their dealers, and superchargers. No one wants a car where nearest service centre is 50+ miles away

Tesla have no dealers. They have showrooms where the staff are not on commission and there’s no hard sell.
As there’s no requirement for regular servicing it doesn’t matter. And for thing that do crop up, many are dealt with remotely or you can arrange for mobile service at a tone and place that suits you.

As an example of big gaps, there are no Tesla dealers in Wiltshire, and no superchargers in Dorset

If you aren’t going outside of Dorset you don’t need a supercharger.

 

[meld3]

Well to be fair there is more to hate on Elon than his raised arm.

Personally i find the fact he destroyed US AID which has resulted in the deaths of 1000s of children somewhat worse.

I tend to find the Tesla haters have never driven one, or lived with one.
That was me until I had one for a day - Ordered a Model 3 the next day and 30k miles in the last 18 months later (and I'm retired) qualifies me to say it's the best car I've ever had, despite being vastly cheaper than my previous new cars (X5, X3M, S-class, CLS-class).
I do many long trips in it, several 600+ mile day trips, and even a 900 mile day trip. Never once had a charging problem but you never will with a Tesla (unlike wife's Ioniq5 and public chargers....)