Liverpool City Region-Bus Franchising

[Statto]

Yeah, although Birkenhead Central is more of a pain to get to because you have to get across the dual carriageway first. Central also has 6tph but it's not at an even headway, there are two 15-minute gaps in service every hour. At least Conway Park, as a more modern station, is fully accessible and has a more even headway.

The service being split across two stations makes it even less convenient to change from bus to train in Birkenhead, though. It's not so bad coming from Liverpool, but going into Liverpool it's tricky. I'm not a regular in Birkenhead by any means, but I normally take the bus from the bus station across the river simply because it is less faff.

The issue with that is it'd be chaos if all the cross river routes called at Birkenhead bus station on the way to Liverpool as the routes only stop at one stand (stand 7), were as the stops are spread out when they come from Liverpool.

Birkenhead bus station whilst ok for passengers is not that great for buses, you only need a couple of buses waiting to get to a stand & you have chaos, stand 5 isn't used as buses longer than a sprinter can't fit into the stand as that stand is right next to the bend, routes stopping at stands 3 & 4 had to be swapped as there has been a load of accidents at the crossing involving buses departing from stand 4

 

[TheSel]

Again, my ignorance is showing here. For comparison, how tall were double decker buses in 1934?

Typically, 'Highbridge' double deckers - i.e. with a central gangway upstairs - were around 14' 6". Several manufacturers offered 'Lowbridge' designs - generally with a sunken offside gangway upstairs - which were typically around 13' 6" in height.

'Lowbridge' designs had two significant disadvantages from the passengers' perspective.

Upstairs, the seats were four abreast - a real pain when you were next to the nearside window and wanted to alight before the three passengers sat between you and the gangway.
Downstairs, the sunken [upper deck] gangway protruded into the passenger area, leaving very limited headroom for those sat on the offside.

Thus, these were typically only ordered by companies requiring double decker capacity, but whose operating area included numerous low bridges which would accommodate a 13' 6" bus, but not a 14' 6" one.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

13' 6" bus, but not a 14' 6" one.

Which the internet tells me are 4.1 metres for 13'6" and 4.4m for 14'6" - much the same as (and I would guess within a rounding error as) current buses.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

although they were very rare through the Birkenhead Tunnel pre-deregulation as far as I remember.

Out of interest, are there any other UK examples that are similar to that of the Birkenhead Tunnel? i.e. restricted height and width, with oncoming traffic

As @Statto states, it was dereg when the main changes came. Still, in 40 years, it hasn't proved to be any major Health and Safety concern.

The original Tyne Tunnel had a single bore and oncoming vehicles including trucks and two bus services linking Jarrow with North Tyneside, usually Atlanteans and VRs. Nowadays, there's a second tunnel but the bus service is now operated by a rather mundane Mellor Strata.

The High Level Bridge in Newcastle was a very narrow two way route and was changed to a one way Southbound route on H&S reasons but that was to do with reducing the weight on the bridge rather than breakdowns or accidents.

Again, my ignorance is showing here. For comparison, how tall were double decker buses in 1934?

Depends but not much different as @TheSel states. Liverpool Corporation would have 14'5 Titans, Crosville had Bristol K5Gs and KSWs that were 13'6 whereas their Bristol VRs were 13'8. Barton Transport famously had a Dennis Loline that was 12'5 but a real oddity.

Again as @TheSel says, some operators who had lots of low bridges e.g. in South Wales, Potteries etc would go with low height vehicles, even having 13'5 Bristol VRs against the standard 13'8.

 

[Fokx]

The issue with that is it'd be chaos if all the cross river routes called at Birkenhead bus station on the way to Liverpool as the routes only stop at one stand (stand 7), were as the stops are spread out when they come from Liverpool.

Birkenhead bus station whilst ok for passengers is not that great for buses, you only need a couple of buses waiting to get to a stand & you have chaos, stand 5 isn't used as buses longer than a sprinter can't fit into the stand as that stand is right next to the bend, routes stopping at stands 3 & 4 had to be swapped as there has been a load of accidents at the crossing involving buses departing from stand 4

Birkenhead bus station is now one of the oldest on the network and is probably one of the most likely to be replaced and remodeled within the next decade.

Admittedly I'm a little surprised it wasn't planned and part of the town regeneration works that introduced "Wotsit Street" and the revamped Conway Park area.

 

[Statto]

Birkenhead bus station is now one of the oldest on the network and is probably one of the most likely to be replaced and remodeled within the next decade.

Admittedly I'm a little surprised it wasn't planned and part of the town regeneration works that introduced "Wotsit Street" and the revamped Conway Park area.

I'm not sure how you can improve the current Birkenhead Bus Station given the location it's in is rather tight, unless they extend the bus station across the car park.

 

[Fokx]

I'm not sure how you can improve the current Birkenhead Bus Station given the location it's in is rather tight, unless they extend the bus station across the car park.

You could either extend across the car park and demolish the derelict retail units where Wynsors and Wilko used to occupy (only currently tenant is the Bingo Hall from memory) or into the shopping area which is being partially demolished anyway.

 

[Tetchytyke]

'm not sure how you can improve the current Birkenhead Bus Station given the location it's in is rather tight, unless they extend the bus station across the car park.

The market is moving and so the land the old market is on will be available for redevelopment.

 

[Djgr]

Yeah, although Birkenhead Central is more of a pain to get to because you have to get across the dual carriageway first.

Yes it is, but that whole area is scheduled to be flattened, including the remaining flyovers. This will likely lead to the possibility of improved interchange.

MSN

A date for when progress could begin on a major Birkenhead redevelopment project has been revealed. The Borough Yard scheme is set to transform the area between the Birkenhead Central and Green Lane Merseyrail stations.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Sep 2026 ==

As @Statto states, it was dereg when the main changes came. Still, in 40 years, it hasn't proved to be any major Health and Safety concern.

The original Tyne Tunnel had a single bore and oncoming vehicles including trucks and two bus services linking Jarrow with North Tyneside, usually Atlanteans and VRs. Nowadays, there's a second tunnel but the bus service is now operated by a rather mundane Mellor Strata.

The High Level Bridge in Newcastle was a very narrow two way route and was changed to a one way Southbound route on H&S reasons but that was to do with reducing the weight on the bridge rather than breakdowns or

Are there not any contemporary examples?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Are there not any contemporary examples?

The Tyne Tunnel is a contemporary example. They manage to have full size buses and HGVs and, as with the Queensway, any breakdowns are dealt with very quickly and efficiently. Or you can have the 108 in London that uses the Blackwall Tunnel only on southbound journeys - the northbound tunnel is only 13' high so can't take deckers so most journeys are single deckers though a few overnight southbound runs are done with deckers.

Have you evidence and examples that highlight that double deck buses are inherently unsafe in the Queensway tunnel?

 

[Statto]

If deckers were unsafe using the Queensway tunnel they'd be banned long before now, also single decks are just as wide as deckers nowadays so they'd be banned too, it's a load of nonsense being posted that deckers are unsafe in the Queensway tunnel, as i've been on deckers through both tunnels billions of times & never seen any issues with them

 

[Djgr]

The Tyne Tunnel is a contemporary example. They manage to have full size buses and HGVs and, as with the Queensway, any breakdowns are dealt with very quickly and efficiently. Or you can have the 108 in London that uses the Blackwall Tunnel only on southbound journeys - the northbound tunnel is only 13' high so can't take deckers so most journeys are single deckers though a few overnight southbound runs are done with deckers.

Have you evidence and examples that highlight that double deck buses are inherently unsafe in the Queensway tunnel?

No I don't. I'm just seeking reassurance from people who have more knowledge than myself.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Are there not any contemporary examples?

The Silvertown tunnel has double-deckers running through it 20 times an hour in each direction.

There aren't actually all that many road tunnels in the UK and most of them have been expanded over the years so that they are no longer single-bore in normal operation. The Queensway is now the only major single-bore tunnel that I can think of. But the Tyne Tunnel had regular double deck operation in the many years when it was single-bore.

 

[Idk123]

Birkenhead bus station is now one of the oldest on the network and is probably one of the most likely to be replaced and remodeled within the next decade.

Admittedly I'm a little surprised it wasn't planned and part of the town regeneration works that introduced "Wotsit Street" and the revamped Conway Park area.

I think it was proposed.

You could either extend across the car park and demolish the derelict retail units where Wynsors and Wilko used to occupy (only currently tenant is the Bingo Hall from memory) or into the shopping area which is being partially demolished anyway.

There is nothing on that retail unit anymore.

 

[Polarbear]

I think it was proposed.

There is nothing on that retail unit anymore.

Last I noticed, Windsor’s shoes were the last retail outlet & they were having a closing down sale.

However, I’ll throw a small spoiler in the mix, in that as part of the recent regeneration, the council tidied up the area immediately in front of said empty shops, installing a path heading in the direction of Conway Park station.

Whilst nice, it would rather louse up any plans to expand the footprint of the bus station!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

No I don't. I'm just seeking reassurance from people who have more knowledge than myself.

In which case, the lack of any major incidents in this or similar locations, allied to the highly organised recovery response, means that your concerns really are unfounded.

The Silvertown tunnel has double-deckers running through it 20 times an hour in each direction.

There aren't actually all that many road tunnels in the UK and most of them have been expanded over the years so that they are no longer single-bore in normal operation. The Queensway is now the only major single-bore tunnel that I can think of. But the Tyne Tunnel had regular double deck operation in the many years when it was single-bore.

Indeed, I remember doing it on the 310 between Jarrow and Whitley Bay via the Tyne Tunnel. I've also been through the Queensway and can't say it concerned me.

 

[Polarbear]

The only time I’ve been concerned with a bus through the Queensway tunnel was recently (I’ve travelled through regularly for 10 years now & occasionally since the 1980’s).

Driver was heading to Birkenhead, one hand on the steering wheel through the tunnel, with a vape being used by the other hand! At one point, he caught up another bus, and flashed his lights (as if the other bus could actually go anywhere!).

That performance got reported to the operator!

 

[Tetchytyke]

The only time I’ve been concerned with a bus through the Queensway tunnel was recently (I’ve travelled through regularly for 10 years now & occasionally since the 1980’s).

Definitely less frequent than you, but a recent trip was the only one where I felt nervous. Again, an aggressive driver rather than anything about the tunnel or the double decker bus and, again, I was relieved when they swapped drivers at Birkenhead.

 

[Bungle965]

Back on topic please!

 

[Statto]

Just seen one of the new Ultroliners on driver training going through Moreton

 

[adam rogan]

I caught the x3 recently and I can imagine them getting rid of the limited stop aspect sooner rather than later. Some school kids got on at Cronton and when they got to Speke were pressing the bell repeatedly and stood at the front as the bus glided past all the stops. They ended up having to get off at the airport and catch an 89 back.

This reminds me of when Lancashire County Council tried to make the the 319 Kirkby to Skelmersdale bus limited stop only to realize that a huge chunk of their patronage was people getting it for local hops as well as those Kirkby bound not necessarily always wanting to get off at the train station or bus station so that scheme to improve punctuality was dropped.

 

[Djgr]

I caught the x3 recently and I can imagine them getting rid of the limited stop aspect sooner rather than later. Some school kids got on at Cronton and when they got to Speke were pressing the bell repeatedly and stood at the front as the bus glided past all the stops. They ended up having to get off at the airport and catch an 89 back.

although probably only a mistake you make once

 

[Statto]

Here's a daft situation, the 417 is going to have an evening & Sunday service but the 416/416A will only operate Monday to Saturday, but they operate a circular from Clatterbridge via Raby Mere, Eastham Rake, Bromborough Cross & Spital, so you have the 417 going one way but no 416/416A & that is quite a long circular, taking about 50 minutes to complete the circular.

Also buses operating the evening & Sunday 417 will have about a 35 minute layover in Moreton, as the 417 interworks the 416/416A during the day, but they won't evening & Sundays.


One idea could be just have the evening & Sunday 417 going Moreton-Clatterbridge as 417E.

 

[stait.john]

I think this is it in a nutshell.

In this respect, the neutrality is a benefit in that it can be readily applied and, as you say, it perhaps doesn't have the political issues of branding something Mersey-esque when some areas may not see themselves that way. As @Djgr states, some on the Wirral might not see it that way, and neither in Newton le Willows or Southport.

The prefix Metro has been employed (to indicate a metropolitan or urban area) in many non-light rail instances; almost a synonym for "urban"

Blackpool Transport used Metro for their buses for a period, Bristol has the "metrobus" scheme, we have Metrobus in South London/Sussex though that might be a little incongruous when in East Grinstead , minibuses in Cheltenham and Gloucester had the Metro brand in the 1980s/1990s, Metroline in London. There's doubtless others I've forgotten about.

Bus and train manufacturer Metro-Cammell branded various buses and coaches with Metrobus, Metroliner, Metrorider and the joint venture Metropolitan.

Haha. You’ve reminded me of the time I was driving the m3 Metrobus in Bristol and someone tried to scan a QR code of a day ticket she had purchased online from Metrobus in Surrey & Sussex. Needless to say it didn’t work.

 

[Polarbear]

As we are one month out from the start of franchised services on the Wirral, what time frame do we think we’re looking at for the remaining phases?

Both are due to land in 2027-is anything known about proposals for the remaining areas & what order these are likely to be inacted?

 

[JasonL]

As we are one month out from the start of franchised services on the Wirral, what time frame do we think we’re looking at for the remaining phases?

Both are due to land in 2027-is anything known about proposals for the remaining areas & what order these are likely to be inacted?

Announcements for winners of Tranche 2 will be announced in December 2026 or January 2027

 

[waveyswirley]

Are payments on the new Metro buses automatically capped at the price of daily/weekly Solo tickets?

 

[Djgr]

Are payments on the new Metro buses automatically capped at the price of daily/weekly Solo tickets?

Do you mean if you use contactless? I don't think so, as this is planned to come in after bus franchising in LCR is completed next year.

 

[chris53]

I just paid £2 each way on the 37 bus from Ormskirk to St Helens despite my journey originating outside the LCR, was fully expecting to pay £3 each way

 

[waveyswirley]

Do you mean if you use contactless? I don't think so, as this is planned to come in after bus franchising in LCR is completed next year.

Thanks, good to hear it's planned for the future, it's very useful