It's not a new design though, is it? Stadler boast on the website page for the Citylink that they have sold over 500 examples.
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TfW class 398 Stadler Citylink tram trains
- Thread starter Bob Price
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It would be interesting to know just how similar it is to previous models. They certainly look quite different to the Sheffield variant.
Cardiff123
Established Member
It was some of the more outlandish claims that were being made that made their contributions unbelievable - eg. That a shower screen and a bucket were being kept on board to use as a makeshift toilet if a 398 got stranded.
Or that the entire 398 fleet should be abandoned, along with the depot at Taff's Well, and a new fleet should be ordered, or the 150s be kept going indefinitely instead. TfW and Welsh Govt were never going to abandon a multi million pound fleet of brand new vehicles and a brand new depot and control centre, that would've also involved handing hundreds of millions of pounds back to the EU.
Many of their claims were believable, but others just came across as a disgruntled, now retired employee who was opposed to any change on the Valleys. And the 398s are the biggest change on the Valleys in generations.
TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
No coming back from that
It is though, the UK system makes these quite unlike any before except maybe the 399s but even then I suspect there's quite a lot of differences.
Northerngirl
Member
The body is new but surely the electrics carried over from previous projects just moved around
bahnause
Member
The first Citylink was built 2003 (Vossloh) as standard electric, metre-gauge tram-trains. Very unlikley that any of the electrics or electronics will still be in the class 398. Electrical components may vary even between different production runs of otherwise identical vehicles if these are manufactured over a prolonged period.
chargesmith
Member
398029 left the depot this morning and ran into Cardiff Central, then operated a service to Pontypridd.
I believe this is the first 398 to run in public service from Network Rail infrastructure (albeit briefly)
I believe this is the first 398 to run in public service from Network Rail infrastructure (albeit briefly)
Peter Sarf
Established Member
Lots of differences in how the 398s were implemented.
We must not lose sight of the fact that implementation of these 398s might not have been held up by the 398s themselves but more by the electrification not being ready sooner. It is perhaps only now that serious quantities of running are showing the teething problems.
There seem to be enough difference.
Yes. The comment about toilet bucket and screen suggested to me a desire to just see the 398s in a bad light come what may OR just as likely some gossip or idle chat that got blown out of all proportion. There was to much.
I think angrily defending said person against all comments that were not all aggressive is a sign.
Indeed. 23 years have elapsed and it would be worrying if there were no differences.
I still wonder, looking back, if the hold ups were down to the pace of electrification ?.
Certainly the Bay area has only just been implemented.
We have in the meantime had 231s working the route and more recently 756s. Maybe there was some good forward planning allowing the routes to start using the electrification with the 756s version of Flirts.
Meanwhile, as I said before, we have eleven out of thirty six 398s available for service, almost one third. A fairly steady growth not unlike other fleet introductions. A few stutters at first and of course crew have to get used to them.
Compare with the 701 introduction which,
EDIT 12:17 - correction First 701 in service was 701037 on 09/01/2024. There were six introduced in the whole of that first year (12%), Then in 2025 a further 56% entered service. The 398s are already at 30% after only three months. So overall I would say progress is good right now - perhaps a bit to ambitious !.
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Interesting how has this diagram previously been running? Or have they just not been running a service from central at that time for a while.
Thats a good step to be taken though, it shows that there's some acceptance of them on network rail infrastructure beyond testing.
Did the ORR officially approve them yet?
Surely they must be approved as otherwise they wouldn't be allowed to carry passengers on NR infrastructure?
I'm not familiar with the specifics of the rules. Like I could see it being possible for these sorts of fridge beginning/end of service movements. Though I could also see it being an absolute requirement.
chargesmith
Member
I think it's a modification of one of the 3 diagrams for the Pontypridd - Bay service, I believe it was previously running to Cardiff Bay and then beginning the service from there but today it ran from Central instead.
It's popped up in the timetable before but it never came to fruition until today.
It's due to happen again tomorrow so could be a soft launch of sorts?
ic31420
Member
Is that not an issue in itself. We see with the 175s how much of an issue parking them up for a couple of years can be.
chargesmith
Member
The 175s are now around 25 years old.
I also believe there is a difference between so-called warm and cold storage. The 398s presumably have had their condition carefully managed by TfW and Stadler while they were awaiting entry to service, I don't think this happened with the 175s after they got taken out of service with TfW.
deepthought
Member
- Joined
- 29 Dec 2016
- Messages
- 30
2B74 has failed between Trefforest and Trefforest Estate showing as 398024 on RTT.
The traction 9same 100kph top speed) and 25kV electrical systems are probably very similar to the Class 399, which are only 10 years old. I imagine the battery hybrid system has some similarity to the Class 777/1 (and the 777s were built with the capability to add a pantograph and 25kV transformer/rectifier onto the power bus at a later date).
Stadler's whole spiel when bidding for these contracts is their modularity and capability to plug together proven subsystems they already have on the shelf to build whatever the customer wants - they aren't redesigning the wheel for each contract.
WelshBluebird
Established Member
- Joined
- 14 Jan 2010
- Messages
- 5,599
Ultimately we are still in the early days of them being used for passenger services. I really don't see how you can argue against that.
And we do see that new rolling stock tend to have issues upon their introduction, even ones heavily based on existing stock. The 810's are a good current example of that too.
Obviously that isn't good for passengers, and yes the introduction has been delayed several times amongst less than clear comms. But really what do the people whinging want? It is clear TfW are getting on with it as fast as they can now, and a third of the fleet in passenger service is pretty decent.
And we do see that new rolling stock tend to have issues upon their introduction, even ones heavily based on existing stock. The 810's are a good current example of that too.
Obviously that isn't good for passengers, and yes the introduction has been delayed several times amongst less than clear comms. But really what do the people whinging want? It is clear TfW are getting on with it as fast as they can now, and a third of the fleet in passenger service is pretty decent.
bahnause
Member
The first generation Stadler FLIRT for SBB for example were built over 15 years and have a lot of differences. Oil-cooled transformers have been replaced by dry-type transformers. Many electronic components vary depending on the year of manufacture. Often, different components are used for subsequent orders, for example in converters where the models originally used are no longer manufactured. In addition, there are also adjustments resulting from changes to the approval requirements.
bradleyd
Member
Has messed up the entire tam lines. Have been sat at cathays over an hour waiting for a train (I can't get the stagecoach bus because have a few large suitcases that the buses wouldn't let on)
Markdvdman
Member
I was lucky to get from Central to Greyfriars Road to get the X4 to Merthyr. Utterly rammed full. Luckily accepted my weekly ticket and he did accept somebody who tapped on. Trains appear to be running now although not 100%
They could fix it, all appears good and then the fault reappears.
Not a lot they can do of that happens.
Same thing happened day in day out across the network.
But this would be the 3rd time that unit broke down if it is in fact that unit.
BillStampy
Established Member
024.
Hopefully they can get these working a bit more reliably again. Wonder if they've got the 150s spare to swap back in if they want to take a week to look at things.
TheWierdOne
Member
Murphy’s law strikes again
VR494
Member
Well it’s been a while, I thought I’d take some time away and monitor the progress. See how they settled in etc.
And before we start, the toilet comment was not a joke, there are still plans I believe to have an emergency toilet onboard. It was voiced as a “Bucket and shower screen” by the conductor instructors. Laughing aside, the mess rooms were not impressed with it either.
I do have some information regarding today’s disruption on the TAM and it was apparently due to brake fault on 398024. The rescue unit also had the fault transferred.
One unit is able to assist providing the electrical battery supply is available, two needed for a dead unit with no brake continuity. That’s max 5mph too. Expect that to become the norm in the months ahead.
Training is progressing, however the reliability of the units is still very much under scrutiny. Daily cancellations and unit swaps are the way it’s going.
A few units have already become donors for spares, and 398001 is currently parked up apparently missing various bits waiting to be rebuilt. It is missing various parts from lights, air conditioning units and front ends. They have a parts supply issue with the manufacturer and the 398 may now be an obsolete class. They did mention an order for an additional 12, I don’t have anything further on this.
There is also an ongoing issues with the TCU or train control units, and overheating of the traction motors which is causing the loss of dynamic braking stability. There have been brake failures and one unit on training earlier this month failed in its attempt to stop at a station because of this. It ran through.
At current time, when this fault is occurring they are swapping the unit out for another, if availability is there.
The cause is apparently linked to when not under the wires the regeneration braking is dispersing the excess energy as heat into the brake resistors. Operating at higher speeds in train mode, on discontinuous electricity, is not going well. It overheats and cuts out. They ideally need to be under 25k all the time as designed. One of the fixes being proposed is to overcharge the batteries with excess heat from the brakes. This will reduce the life of the battery and possibly have other effects too!
Sadly the 4tph in the Treherbert line has now also been put back and won’t be happening in December from the 14th. Realtime trains has the updated schedule reflecting this. The units are in not fit state to accommodate the service increase, and won’t be anytime soon. They aren’t ready and there is a struggle now to cover the three on the Cardiff Bay daily.
Multiple running also won’t be happening testing has again failed. In one instance the doors on the front unit opened on the correct side and the rear on the wrong side. You can also apparently have no brakes working on the rear and only on the front set! Without a review of the coupler I can’t see how software will change that.
I know you think I’m sceptical of these, I did voice my opinion after leaving the industry and I still don’t see these things happening on the scale they planned.
It’s time they came out and told the truth, the project is in a serious state of affairs and the lack of communication from the CEO in the last couple of months only makes me think there’s something wrong behind the scenes.
The door procedure is also proving to be a disaster and cameras are unable to be used in rainy conditions or heavy sunlight due to bleaching. To get around this they are switching the units to full conductor mode at crew discretion.
And finally your favourite the air conditioning. It can only adjust marginally by a few degrees up and down over the outside air temperature. Crew have no control over it whatsoever, the windows can be opened or closed in the saloon. It’s an urban metro system design for city centre use and not that you’d get with a new modern train.
We have had a hot summer which has not helped. Like the Mk4 sets it is what it is, and the software update has not changed it.
It’s not going to change they are going to be hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It’s what they’ve bought!
Happy tram-training and make sure you make alternate arrangements if you plan to catch a CVL service anytime soon. It’s a mess.
And before we start, the toilet comment was not a joke, there are still plans I believe to have an emergency toilet onboard. It was voiced as a “Bucket and shower screen” by the conductor instructors. Laughing aside, the mess rooms were not impressed with it either.
I do have some information regarding today’s disruption on the TAM and it was apparently due to brake fault on 398024. The rescue unit also had the fault transferred.
One unit is able to assist providing the electrical battery supply is available, two needed for a dead unit with no brake continuity. That’s max 5mph too. Expect that to become the norm in the months ahead.
Training is progressing, however the reliability of the units is still very much under scrutiny. Daily cancellations and unit swaps are the way it’s going.
A few units have already become donors for spares, and 398001 is currently parked up apparently missing various bits waiting to be rebuilt. It is missing various parts from lights, air conditioning units and front ends. They have a parts supply issue with the manufacturer and the 398 may now be an obsolete class. They did mention an order for an additional 12, I don’t have anything further on this.
There is also an ongoing issues with the TCU or train control units, and overheating of the traction motors which is causing the loss of dynamic braking stability. There have been brake failures and one unit on training earlier this month failed in its attempt to stop at a station because of this. It ran through.
At current time, when this fault is occurring they are swapping the unit out for another, if availability is there.
The cause is apparently linked to when not under the wires the regeneration braking is dispersing the excess energy as heat into the brake resistors. Operating at higher speeds in train mode, on discontinuous electricity, is not going well. It overheats and cuts out. They ideally need to be under 25k all the time as designed. One of the fixes being proposed is to overcharge the batteries with excess heat from the brakes. This will reduce the life of the battery and possibly have other effects too!
Sadly the 4tph in the Treherbert line has now also been put back and won’t be happening in December from the 14th. Realtime trains has the updated schedule reflecting this. The units are in not fit state to accommodate the service increase, and won’t be anytime soon. They aren’t ready and there is a struggle now to cover the three on the Cardiff Bay daily.
Multiple running also won’t be happening testing has again failed. In one instance the doors on the front unit opened on the correct side and the rear on the wrong side. You can also apparently have no brakes working on the rear and only on the front set! Without a review of the coupler I can’t see how software will change that.
I know you think I’m sceptical of these, I did voice my opinion after leaving the industry and I still don’t see these things happening on the scale they planned.
It’s time they came out and told the truth, the project is in a serious state of affairs and the lack of communication from the CEO in the last couple of months only makes me think there’s something wrong behind the scenes.
The door procedure is also proving to be a disaster and cameras are unable to be used in rainy conditions or heavy sunlight due to bleaching. To get around this they are switching the units to full conductor mode at crew discretion.
And finally your favourite the air conditioning. It can only adjust marginally by a few degrees up and down over the outside air temperature. Crew have no control over it whatsoever, the windows can be opened or closed in the saloon. It’s an urban metro system design for city centre use and not that you’d get with a new modern train.
We have had a hot summer which has not helped. Like the Mk4 sets it is what it is, and the software update has not changed it.
It’s not going to change they are going to be hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It’s what they’ve bought!
Happy tram-training and make sure you make alternate arrangements if you plan to catch a CVL service anytime soon. It’s a mess.
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