Cross-operator ticket acceptance announced (excluding East Midlands Railway, OAOs) when services are cancelled

[positron]

It is particularly striking that the operators above are ones where the authorities concerned have made a great virtue out of the greater state control of their operations/franchises, yet seem unwilling to adopt this very obviously public benefit.

Well we don't really know do we. Nothing says they've rejected this. We don't even know if they were asked. Normally I think TfW is pretty good at both getting ticket acceptance and taking others (I'm more familiar with the former). Bear in mind GWR are the ones who still won't take TfWs PAYG.

 

[lowe1409]

Well we don't really know do we. Nothing says they've rejected this. We don't even know if they were asked. Normally I think TfW is pretty good at both getting ticket acceptance and taking others (I'm more familiar with the former). Bear in mind GWR are the ones who still won't take TfWs PAYG

Up north, I feel like TFW are an absolute pain for acceptance. Generally there is none officially and your at the guard's mercy.

 

[positron]

Bonkers idea in my opinion.

My Northern train from Sunderland to Newcastle at 1201 is cancelled. I'm trying to get to Swindon.

So, rather than use XC from Newcastle to Cheltenham and then Great Western to Swindon I decide to use Northern to Thornaby which departs at 1400. Then TPE to York, LNER to Kings Cross (but I could be adventurous and use Great Northern from Peterborough) before finally using Great Western to Swindon.

Trying to police this from a member of staff"s perspective is going to be difficult.

To me, the policy should be

"If your train is cancelled, and there is not another train with the original operator(s) up to 1 hour earlier or 1 hour later then you may use any participating operator to reach your destination".

This would, I believe, cut down on at least 95% of people using alternative routes and alternatives operators. The people who have an LNR ticket and then jump on Avanti would be significantly reduced

Why is it a good idea to reduce that though? TOC only tickets are ridiculous and if people can just get on a train and go to where they want that's surely the whole point of the railway. It doesn't need to be hard for staff to police they can simply not be jobsworths... As others have said revenue lost isn't coming out of their wages.

I'm all for revenue enforcement but if someone has a ticket from A to B and make a convincing enough explanation that they were disrupted just get on with your work.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Sep 2026 ==

Up north, I feel like TFW are an absolute pain for acceptance. Generally there is none officially and your at the guard's mercy.

Ah fair, admittedly I rarely travel on TfW specific tickets but when I have I know others have accepted it in case of issues.

I think one big benefit to this is no longer having to wait for ticket acceptance to become official because it's just the default now (notwithstanding the exclusions obviously).

 

[Bletchleyite]

In fact I would like to see if your intended train is cancelled, that becomes an open single - any train company - unrestricted via any reasonable route. Is that the case now/

Only if you commence your journey from the point of cancellation within +/-2 hours and don't use TfW, ScotRail, Merseyrail etc. But otherwise yes.

 

[Magdalen Road]

Bonkers idea in my opinion.

My Northern train from Sunderland to Newcastle at 1201 is cancelled. I'm trying to get to Swindon.

So, rather than use XC from Newcastle to Cheltenham and then Great Western to Swindon I decide to use Northern to Thornaby which departs at 1400. Then TPE to York, LNER to Kings Cross (but I could be adventurous and use Great Northern from Peterborough) before finally using Great Western to Swindon.

Trying to police this from a member of staff"s perspective is going to be difficult.

To me, the policy should be

"If your train is cancelled, and there is not another train with the original operator(s) up to 1 hour earlier or 1 hour later then you may use any participating operator to reach your destination".

This would, I believe, cut down on at least 95% of people using alternative routes and alternatives operators. The people who have an LNR ticket and then jump on Avanti would be significantly reduced

What would you propose when the operator of the originally planned journey has no idea when their next service will run. Or claims will run but doesn’t?
GTR last week had a will it-won’t it with two trains from KGX-Ely during disruption. Gateline staff were honest that the GTR app’s claim for a reinstated 1523 couldn’t be certain. My intended 1454 was already cancelled.
So I went LNER KGX-PBO, EMR PBO-ELY instead (checked acceptance with the train manager before boarding).
Because of the new policy I was only 35 minutes late instead of over an hour. Saved GTR a bit of delay repay too.

 

[Howardh]

What would you propose when the operator of the originally planned journey has no idea when their next service will run. Or claims will run but doesn’t?
GTR last week had a will it-won’t it with two trains from KGX-Ely during disruption. Gateline staff were honest that the GTR app’s claim for a reinstated 1523 couldn’t be certain. My intended 1454 was already cancelled.
So I went LNER KGX-PBO, EMR PBO-ELY instead (checked acceptance with the train manager before boarding).
Because of the new policy I was only 35 minutes late instead of over an hour. Saved GTR a bit of delay repay too.

Totally agree, if the customer is put out, they should get to where they want to go by any means possible, and not, as before, face a string regulations. As for your first point, if a train's cancelled but the next one's allegedly running, there's no guarantee that will turn up (if there's a problem on the line which isn't sorted quickly, chances are it won't).

As you allude to, delay repay's might not cost the TOC's as much either, so it's a double win.

 

[positron]

Wow this goes to show how poorly the media present things like this. The government in their defense provided a full list of operators and yet the independent went with one that isn't included...

 

[800002]

As you allude to, delay repay's might not cost the TOC's as much either, so it's a double win.

Providing tickets are scanned at each opportunity, thus registering any particular routing information and timing data to reduce the amount of fraudulent DR claims.

 

[positron]

I do worry that if this does end up changing how delay repay is calculated that it'll end up with situations where it tells you you're entitled to less refund because you could have gone via 5 TOC changes to save 30 minutes journey time if only you'd known.

 

[Russel]

I do worry that if this does end up changing how delay repay is calculated that it'll end up with situations where it tells you you're entitled to less refund because you could have gone via 5 TOC changes to save 30 minutes journey time if only you'd known.

Hmm, I hadn't considered this aspect, but yeah it's not impossible that there could be a bit of mission creep here to reduce the delay repay bill...

 

[SaltAndVinegar]

It seems like short notice for the TOCs to negotiate software change requests with the third parties who provide the software handling their delay repay claims. But it should theoretically save them money on compensation - could this be part of the reasoning behind this announcement?

I’d say so.

From the staff brief: “Protects industry revenue by encouraging travel via an alternative train company/mode, instead of a refund.”

 

[WesternLancer]

I do worry that if this does end up changing how delay repay is calculated that it'll end up with situations where it tells you you're entitled to less refund because you could have gone via 5 TOC changes to save 30 minutes journey time if only you'd known.

I'm sure it won't be too long before the 15 minute D-R threshold is dropped anyway and things changed to only permitting claims at 30 minutes or more delay.
I'm speculating, but can imagine it going that way.

 

[800002]

They would have to redraw the whole DelaybRepay premise.
It's payable against your itinerary/ intended travel on the day.
Not by formulation of which route you could have taken to mitigate the delay.

And there is nothing here to even suggest that you  must jump on the next available service, just that you  can.

 

[A S Leib]

And there is nothing here to even suggest that you  must jump on the next available service, just that you  can.

It seems unreasonable that somebody with tickets from London to Ribblehead, split at Leeds, should have to take the next Leeds train after theirs is cancelled rather than being allowed to get the latest one arriving in time for the next connection to Ribblehead.

 

[trainophile]

I'm puzzled as to what happens if you have a two leg journey with different operators, possibly with split tickets not a through A-C ticket, and the B-C is showing cancelled early in the day, a while before you need to board your A-B, which is running normally. Would you be okay to get an earlier A-B train with whoever, to enable you to get an earlier train at your interchange point, thus arriving at your destination early rather than late?

 

[SaltAndVinegar]

There is, what you might call, a “moral hazard” with non GBR operators in that cancelling trains becomes “free” as the passengers move to another operator. If the scheme includes sensible but significant recompense for the operator that takes the displaced passengers then that could be resolved. Perhaps also reward ticket checks that capture the transfers.

It’s cross-operator acceptance within the list of participating operators, of which OAs are not included. So the policy does not apply to OAs by default, it would need to be agreed by the relevant Control or Commercial teams.

From the brief:

“In the event of a cancellation to a participating TOC service, customers holding a ticket valid for that service will be able to travel on any other participating TOC service within the two hours before or after the cancelled service on a direct or reasonable indirect routing”

 

[D1537]

It's not just that - there's also overlapping service from LNER, while TfW overlap English operators in a number of places. This needs Holyrood and Cardiff Bay to sit down and act like adults with DfT, and accept that they are part of a common network rather than geographically isolated (I'm less bothered about London and Merseyrail as the overlaps are much less significant)

The question was "Scotrail services that enter England". Clearly there is an overlapping service in Scotland between Scotrail and LNER, and also between Edinburgh and Dunbar with TPE, but that wasn't the question.

 

[lowe1409]

Wow this goes to show how poorly the media present things like this. The government in their defense provided a full list of operators and yet the independent went with one that isn't included...

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Or does it infect show how poorly the railway is understood by those not familiar with it. How's a normal traveller expected to memorise the full list of which are and are not participating tocs. Sure the independent could have shown better diligence, but fundamentally, I feel most people who have heard of GBR, assume it's all companies are now GBR.

 

[Kite159]

...

I’d say so.

From the staff brief: “Protects industry revenue by encouraging travel via an alternative train company/mode, instead of a refund.”

Although that probably won't stop some people chancing it to claim a refund saying they didn't travel due to the train being cancelled if their ticket doesn't get scanned on the alternative route.

 

[Starmill]

Caveat emptor, I guess. It feels like minor steps forward. Still, at least the direction is positive!

 

[800002]

It seems unreasonable that somebody with tickets from London to Ribblehead, split at Leeds, should have to take the next Leeds train after theirs is cancelled rather than being allowed to get the latest one arriving in time for the next connection to Ribblehead.

I think you miss-understood the point i was making.

 

[Magdalen Road]

Providing tickets are scanned at each opportunity, thus registering any particular routing information and timing data to reduce the amount of fraudulent DR claims.

I offered my smart card season ticket and the GTR app’s claim showing the season ticket in my account at every opportunity.
I’m still waiting on “referred” lengthy delay GTR claims from two weeks ago, whereas the short delays since have already paid.

 

[positron]

Or does it infect show how poorly the railway is understood by those not familiar with it. How's a normal traveller expected to memorise the full list of which are and are not participating tocs. Sure the independent could have shown better diligence, but fundamentally, I feel most people who have heard of GBR, assume it's all companies are now GBR.

Sure but the public get their information from the media it would help if the media weren't incompetent.

 

[noddingdonkey]

"If your train is cancelled, and there is not another train with the original operator(s) up to 1 hour earlier or 1 hour later then you may use any participating operator to reach your destination".

This would, I believe, cut down on at least 95% of people using alternative routes and alternatives operators. The people who have an LNR ticket and then jump on Avanti would be significantly reduced

That's fine for frequent services, but for an hourly service you are stuck until the following service is confirmed as also cancelled before you can reroute.

 

[Llandudno]

This is a great step in the right direction, obviously we now need ScotRail and TfW to get onboard officially and get it fully reciprocated on the public list.

Ultimately there will still be issues but the government actively announcing this as common sense does mean that when you inevitably get a jobsworth staff member (they seem far more frequent on some operators than others) you can have an 'animated conversation' (as someone else worded it) with them and go about your day. Obviously that absolutely shouldn't be necessary and these sorts of staff should be weeded out of the industry over time.

Open access operators are tricky ideally they'd be included too. It's not super clear to me if the list provided is those that will automatically accept you, (but you could planned on e.g. a lumo train). or if it's a list for both sides of the coin.

I have screen shotted the official announcement and kept it on my phone for when I encounter a ‘jobsworth’

I also have a screen shot confirming that when using a day ranger/rover ticket you can link it to a ticket to/from the boundary station even if the train passes without stopping this has come in handy a few times…

 

[Bletchleyite]

From the staff brief: “Protects industry revenue by encouraging travel via an alternative train company/mode, instead of a refund.”

Given that the vast majority of people want to get where they are going at, or as close as possible to, the time they contracted to do so, rather than get money back when they fail to do so yet again, I think we can genuinely call this a "win win". Passengers aren't as delayed and the Government pays out less Delay Repay.

Getting itineraries is hardly difficult these days, either from your phone or from staff.

 

[OscarH]

I do worry that if this does end up changing how delay repay is calculated that it'll end up with situations where it tells you you're entitled to less refund because you could have gone via 5 TOC changes to save 30 minutes journey time if only you'd known.

It's a valid concern, but I agree with Watershed that most of the existing DR systems are hilariously terrible and primitive and already don't take the ticket restriction into account

 

[OneOfThe48]

A First Class ticket holder with someone like LNWR or CrossCountry WILL be entitled to the same First Class catering / service on an Avanti train as an Avanti ticket holder

 

[Starmill]

Given that the vast majority of people want to get where they are going at, or as close as possible to, the time they contracted to do so, rather than get money back when they fail to do so yet again, I think we can genuinely call this a "win win". Passengers aren't as delayed and the Government pays out less Delay Repay.

Getting itineraries is hardly difficult these days, either from your phone or from staff.

This bears repeating, as it's so important: ameliorating the delays people experience is always worthwhile. No railway can be perfectly on time every time, but they can do everything possible to reduce the inconvenience caused. At least it seems the people in the industry making that argument are making positive progress.

 

[mickey]

Wow this goes to show how poorly the media present things like this. The government in their defense provided a full list of operators and yet the independent went with one that isn't included...

View attachment 211610

I don’t know about the Independent, but the Guardian are very good at correcting errors like this if you report them, so perhaps try doing that.

Obviously in an ideal world they’d get it right first time, but news has faced huge cutbacks as revenue has plummeted and picture editors don’t have the time or resource to research everything as thoroughly as we (or I imagine they) would like, particularly in a world that expects ‘content’ immediately.