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Thameslink to replace cushions on class 700 ironing board seats to improve comfort.. Finally..

London Trains

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In my opinion, the longitudinal seats are extremely uncomfortable, to the extent I will rather stand, regardless of journey length. But I am quite happy with the seats on the 700s (which I use daily)
That's just a matter of opinion, but its pretty much factual that most longitudinal seats don't stop you from sitting in the correct posture, with your back, legs and feet straight.
No, they have wheel arches, engine bays, partitions, and all maner of things that constrain your sitting position. Again, typically I stand on buses, as sitting is too uncomfortable. But this is my opinion / experience.
These are things that only affect a select few seats on buses, not all/most of them. There are certainly some seats I'll avoid on buses, but the large majority of seats are fine in my experience.
 
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Starmill

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They are likely to get the contoured cushion used for most later installations of these seats eg the 701 and 195/331. It's quite comfortable in my view, comparable to eg the Desiro seat which you very rarely hear complaints about.

They are very much not "basically the same". The base is a couple of inches thicker and better shaped, the back is more contoured.
They are. The 185 style seat is padded many times over what you get on a 701.
 

Failed Unit

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Are they going to do something about the totally unsuitable layout for wheelchair users (The big pole right in the middle of their turning circle). Granted a wheelchair users would never get on a crush loaded train anyway. However this is typical example of train design that is not tested with the real users. All that effort of having the humps in the same place on all the platforms let down by a big obstruction.
 

Failed Unit

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AIUI It was designed in consultation with real users, and it ested by them too.
So how come it is such a problem when the ramps are needed? (It is as bad on the 717s as well as I found out this evening) - The station staff agreeing with the point and have said many of them have already highlighted it.
 

Bald Rick

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So how come it is such a problem when the ramps are needed? (It is as bad on the 717s as well as I found out this evening) - The station staff agreeing with the point and have said many of them have already highlighted it.

No idea.
 

Failed Unit

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I have a hunch that it probably isn‘t possible to remove the pole from the centre of the doors nearest the wheelchair areas. However travelling today on both 700s, 717s and 387s, the 387s are much better designed for wheelchair users. However putting into perspective it is only about 30 seconds longer (but significant stress to the person in the wheelchair) to get them onboard. Considering what wheelchair users are in the minority, it could probably be argued that the pole is probably better for the majority, so the difficulty of getting a wheelchair on isn’t really an issue.

I will take a better look tomorrow. I don’t think the ramp helps either. The metal extends beyond the end of the ramp on the 7xx so maybe changing the ramp design is the solution as you are further on the train and closer to the obstacle compared to other trains.
 
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Starmill

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AIUI It was designed in consultation with real users, and it ested by them too.
Is that the kind of customer testing like the one Northern did with seats? They put on a roadshow of different seat types in a mobile mock up, and asked the public to vote on the most comfortable. Then they didn't choose the one which was far and away the winning option.
 

Bletchleyite

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Is that the kind of customer testing like the one Northern did with seats? They put on a roadshow of different seat types in a mobile mock up, and asked the public to vote on the most comfortable. Then they didn't choose the one which was far and away the winning option.

For good reason - they had screwed up. The LEAN would not fit in the planned layout with acceptable legroom as the back is too thick. They did the best they could do, which is the thinnest backed seat in the test but with a cushion similar to the LEAN (indeed, less hard a base than the LEAN - its base is really quite hard, as any Class 196 traveller can tell you!).

They didn't admit that error, but it doesn't make it any less so. Next time you're on a 195/331 have a think what the legroom in the airline seats would be like were the seat backs about 2" thicker and why that would be unworkable. The only way to get them in would have been having near enough no tables.

It is a big error in these tests not to have several rows of seats and thus include the legroom in what you are testing. The superthick cushions of e.g. the refurbished 3 car 158s might be comfortable, but they reduce legroom to the point that anyone over 6' is going to struggle, and that is overridingly bad. Good legroom is even beneficial for shorter people as they can do stuff like putting suitcases by their knees. (Interestingly the 205 bus in London which connects some stations on the north side as the "son of Stationlink" has wider legroom specified upstairs than other London buses for that precise reason).
 
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Failed Unit

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Just going back to the struggles getting a wheelchair onboard. The ramp certainty is part of the problem. They have metal guiders after the top of the ramp (at least 10cm - apologies I didn’t have a tape) which means the wheelchair user is much closer to the pole before they can turn. Apparently electric wheelchairs are particularly bad.

So it is actually a combination of the pole and the ramp. The 387s ramp is flush at the top. In fact I can’t think of any other trains I have used with that design of ramp. The 700 / 717s are the only ones boarding is difficult including trains like the 800 which much narrower doors.

I am not sure where they tested them, with how many users and what type of ramp. Some stations in the core you don’t need a ramp, I must admit they are easier to use but the pole is still irritable. Will create a new thread if if discussion continues.
 

AM9

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Just going back to the struggles getting a wheelchair onboard. The ramp certainty is part of the problem. They have metal guiders after the top of the ramp (at least 10cm - apologies I didn’t have a tape) which means the wheelchair user is much closer to the pole before they can turn. Apparently electric wheelchairs are particularly bad.

So it is actually a combination of the pole and the ramp. The 387s ramp is flush at the top. In fact I can’t think of any other trains I have used with that design of ramp. The 700 / 717s are the only ones boarding is difficult including trains like the 800 which much narrower doors.

I am not sure where they tested them, with how many users and what type of ramp. Some stations in the core you don’t need a ramp, I must admit they are easier to use but the pole is still irritable. Will create a new thread if if discussion continues.
There would be no point in having a pole near the doors on a 800 where the doors are only single width. I imagine that the issue with the pole on the 700s is the exceptionally wide vestibule area and the safety need to provide something for standees to hold on to.
Would it not be possible for the ramp to be offset to reduce the obstruction of the pole?
 

Failed Unit

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There would be no point in having a pole near the doors on a 800 where the doors are only single width. I imagine that the issue with the pole on the 700s is the exceptionally wide vestibule area and the safety need to provide something for standees to hold on to.
Would it not be possible for the ramp to be offset to reduce the obstruction of the pole?
That is a possibility, or removing of the extended metal bits altogether. I feel it is the combination of both causing the problem. If you look at the ramps next time you travel you will see why they could be a problem.
 

Bikeman78

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12 car services would be even better, with selective door opening for the few stations not expensively extended 15? years ago.
More like 30. They were done for the Networker scheme. The trains they replaced finished 31 years ago.
 

BRX

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AIUI the cost was already in the lease deal, but for something else that was to be due now. So the works being done have been changed, but in a way that will benefit passengers more.
It would be interesting to know what this is being done instead of. It's tempting to wonder whether decisions are based on what makes for the best PR on handover to GBR, or on what provides most benefit in the long term.
 

Bald Rick

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It would be interesting to know what this is being done instead of. It's tempting to wonder whether decisions are based on what makes for the best PR on handover to GBR, or on what provides most benefit in the long term.

In this case, it is definitely the latter.

I’m not at liberty to say what work has been dropped.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Thameslink have uploaded a video to their Instagram account earlier showcasing the new seat beside the old one available for testing and trial today (10th September) at London Bridge station.

The new seat is in the same moquette pattern as the old one, no reveal yet of any updated/new pattern.


https://www.instagram.com/reel/DdGcOVqIKyv/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&stkn=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

Makes sense it being the same so views aren't influenced by the colour.

The base there actually looks even thicker than the "contoured" version used on the 195/331 and 701, though it could be an illusion.
 

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Thameslink have uploaded a video to their Instagram account earlier showcasing the new seat beside the old one available for testing and trial today (10th September) at London Bridge station.

The new seat is in the same moquette pattern as the old one, no reveal yet of any updated/new pattern.


https://www.instagram.com/reel/DdGcOVqIKyv/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&stkn=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
I have just been at London Bridge having asked to give feedback on these seats. I flagged the potential issue of reduced capacity as well as for shorter folk such as myself, feet were not fully able to reach the ground.
 

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I have just been at London Bridge having asked to give feedback on these seats. I flagged the potential issue of reduced capacity as well as for shorter folk such as myself, feet were not fully able to reach the ground.

They won't reduce capacity, there isn't going to be a change of seat layout. The back isn't substantially thicker so won't have a significant effect on legroom - it's the base thickness that does most for comfort.

It does look a very thick base, almost to the extent of Northern and GWR's 158 refurbs that are so thick the armrests serve no purpose. The one on the 195/331/701 is between the two and is fine in my eyes (or backside), it's a bit like the Sophia base but without the metal bar.
 

Goldfish62

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The cushion looks the same as those on the Heathrow Express 387s, which are really rather comfortable and similar to the Fainsa Com Rail seats on ODEG trains I've travelled on in Germany.
 

Bletchleyite

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Thanks. The back looks completely unchanged (the 195/331/701 one is definitely more contoured) - that is probably a good thing for those of us who don't fit in one seat width on the window side and so the contoured bit can be uncomfortable. That base is definitely thicker than the 195/331/701/HEx base and appears to be a completely new design.

I guess replacing only the base keeps costs down.
 

PGAT

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Thanks. The back looks completely unchanged (the 195/331/701 one is definitely more contoured) - that is probably a good thing for those of us who don't fit in one seat width on the window side and so the contoured bit can be uncomfortable. That base is definitely thicker than the 195/331/701/HEx base and appears to be a completely new design.

I guess replacing only the base keeps costs down.
The back has a slightly different shape at the top to be more ergonomical
 

GEC465

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Went earlier. It's noticeably more comfy than the old seats and has a better posture. There apparently is also a new moquette in the works. One of the staff also confirmed some bits may be slightly trimmed back like the headrests

Have attached 3 images at different angles showing comparisons between old and new seat bases and backs
1000034389.jpg
 

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Bletchleyite

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Oh, I see, they've added a headrest. Bad move. That's the back of my shoulders pushed forward then. Seats that give a specific posture are only suitable for a person with the exact height and back shape they are designed for.

It is slightly more contoured and slightly wider I think but otherwise very similar apart from that?
 

superalbs

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Makes sense it being the same so views aren't influenced by the colour.

The base there actually looks even thicker than the "contoured" version used on the 195/331 and 701, though it could be an illusion.
Yes. This is definitely a 5th(?) base cushion variant. And it looks absolutely massive, and pretty good too. Though I don't think legroom will do well from this.
 

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