Long term lack of investment in the Marches line

[Tomos y Tanc]

Pyle yes thank you. Its really become a gateway for porthcawl especially with all the new housing thats been built or going to be built.

Needs further improvements to the number of trains stopping at the station

Agreed. Pyle, Kenfig Hill and North Cornelly combined amount to a pretty large settlement. They are, to all intents and purposes, a single conurbation and deserve a better service.

 

[321362]

Pyle yes thank you. Its really become a gateway for porthcawl especially with all the new housing thats been built or going to be built.

Needs further improvements to the number of trains stopping at the station

Can you tell I'm originally from North Wales, not South?

 

[The Mercian]

Agreed. Pyle, Kenfig Hill and North Cornelly combined amount to a pretty large settlement. They are, to all intents and purposes, a single conurbation and deserve a better service.

As someone ignorant of the facts about most things South Wales I did some looking about and that little conurbation is getting on for 15k popn and acts as the railhead for Porthcawl as well which itself is 16k so looks like a prime
Location for improving services.

 

[anthony263]

Agreed. Pyle, Kenfig Hill and North Cornelly combined amount to a pretty large settlement. They are, to all intents and purposes, a single conurbation and deserve a better service.

A full hourly service like what tfw proposed in December 2023 as a shuttle between Cardiff and Swansea is what we really need tostart.

Pyle gets an.hourly service throughout the day on sundays so why not during the week

 

[richard_S]

Chester to Wrexham general most important for re doubling. Re-instating platform 4 at Wrexham general with points put in so trains from Chester can arrive/depart from. I think there are only 5 colour light signals between Saltney junction and Wrexham general there need to be more so the track blocks can be shortened.

 

[Krokodil]

Chester to Wrexham general most important for re doubling. Re-instating platform 4 at Wrexham general with points put in so trains from Chester can arrive/depart from. I think there are only 5 colour light signals between Saltney junction and Wrexham general there need to be more so the track blocks can be shortened.

Do you mean connecting the present platform 3 to the Down Chester?

A more attainable improvement in the short term (which is rumoured to be actually in the works) would be to upgrade the shunt signal at the north end of platform 1 to a main aspect to allow passenger trains to reverse in the platform rather than shunting via Croes Newydd.

 

[cle]

The signal blocks are the real problem.

I do believe that this line is massively underused and could act as another strategic mainline if this was sorted and it was sped up - there are capacity problems throughout and at the ends of course, but in theory it could be hosting:
- a second Cardiff - Crewe service which could pick up smaller calls from the Manchester (which goes faster)
- a Cardiff-Bangor/Holyhead hourly
- a Cardiff-Liverpool hourly
- service from Bristol avoiding Newport towards the NW (Liverpool or Lancs/Scotland)
- hourly on Birmingham - Wrexham - Chester

 

[markymark2000]

A more attainable improvement in the short term (which is rumoured to be actually in the works) would be to upgrade the shunt signal at the north end of platform 1 to a main aspect to allow passenger trains to reverse in the platform rather than shunting via Croes Newydd.

That doesn't feel like it would resolve 99% of the issues though? For it to work, you'd need a long enough gap between trains so that the train can get from Rosset Junction, into Platform 1, turnaround and back to Rosset Junction before the next southbound train can pass.
A connection from the line from Chester, to/from Platform 3 would provide significantly more flexibility both for perfect day planning, but also for times of disruption (both planned and unplanned). It would also save the Borderlands ECS reversing at Croes Newydd which is another set of reversal moves saved each day.

 

[DS25]

Would there be a possibility of a new station at Meole Brace in the south of Shrewsbury, considering that the football ground, retail park and loads of houses are in close proximity to where a station could be?

 

[Zomboid]

The signal blocks are the real problem

In the spirit of finding cheap enhancements, how realistic would some intermediate block signals be, in lieu of proper resignalling, and how much would it help?

 

[Krokodil]

That doesn't feel like it would resolve 99% of the issues though? For it to work, you'd need a long enough gap between trains so that the train can get from Rosset Junction, into Platform 1, turnaround and back to Rosset Junction before the next southbound train can pass.
A connection from the line from Chester, to/from Platform 3 would provide significantly more flexibility both for perfect day planning, but also for times of disruption (both planned and unplanned). It would also save the Borderlands ECS reversing at Croes Newydd which is another set of reversal moves saved each day.

It is a relatively cheap and easy fix however that can simplify operations for the Chester-Wrexham shuttle.

 

[MarkyT]

In the spirit of finding cheap enhancements, how realistic would some intermediate block signals be, in lieu of proper resignalling, and how much would it help?

In general, that's a practical intervention. A thorough study needs to determine where they might be best located, if required. A scattergun approach just halving all the long blocks may not be neccesary. Intermediates are often of most use where trains are catching up with each other so they can be useful for managing a mixed traffic pattern where expresses catch up stoppers and freights on particular stretches. Such new signals and trackside equipment, if thoughtfully positioned, can be incorporated later into wider resignalling, as occurred in Cornwall recently.

 

[zwk500]

In general, that's a practical intervention. A thorough study needs to determine where they might be best located, if required. A scattergun approach just halving all the long blocks may not be neccesary. Intermediates are often of most use where trains are catching up with each other so they can be useful for managing a mixed traffic pattern where expresses catch up stoppers and freights on particular stretches. Such new signals and trackside equipment, if thoughtfully positioned, can be incorporated later into wider resignalling, as occurred in Cornwall recently.

Between Pontypool and Shrewsbury, IB signals would be most helpful where there is a station stop inside the AB section following a Goods Loop, so that looped freight traffic does not need to wait for the train to complete a stop and then clear the block section before departing.

IIRC the section south of Hereford is also very long and if there's going to be more trains from the south that may also benefit from an IB signal. However I would suggest that Cardiff-Newport is a bigger constraint on Marches traffic than anything on the Marches line itself.
Also worth mentioning that Shrewsbury-Crewe is TCB (albeit with signals essentially in the old AB positions), as is Wrexham-Chester, so adding signals into those sections would be more awkward as the Aspect sequence and braking distances could be impacted.

 

[MarkyT]

Between Pontypool and Shrewsbury, IB signals would be most helpful where there is a station stop inside the AB section following a Goods Loop, so that looped freight traffic does not need to wait for the train to complete a stop and then clear the block section before departing.
IIRC the section south of Hereford is also very long and if there's going to be more trains from the south that may also benefit from an IB signal. However I would suggest that Cardiff-Newport is a bigger constraint on Marches traffic than anything on the Marches line itself.

Both make sense

Also worth mentioning that Shrewsbury-Crewe is TCB (albeit with signals essentially in the old AB positions), as is Wrexham-Chester, so adding signals into those sections would be more awkward as the Aspect sequence and braking distances could be impacted.

Adding an extra section on a widely spaced 2 aspect CL TCB line is likely fairly easy as long as the intermediate and its distant are far enough away from existing signals to not involve overlapping aspect sequences. In semaphore areas it is often more complex as it's sometimes neccessary to convert some of the semaphores to CL to create a coherent aspect sequence reading to a new CL intermediate, but if its a long way in advance with its own distant there's usually little trouble.
Axle counters have made intermediates much more practical, requiring sensors only at the block extremities instead of several individual traditional track circuits making up the complete section, each a maximum mile or so in length, with equipment housings, power, repeat relays etc. arranged at intervals throughout. New signals can also be the modern low-maintenance, low-power integrated LED types so can survive on a local power feed with battery backup, rather than needing a complete dedicated signalling power supply along the trackside.

 

[markymark2000]

It is a relatively cheap and easy fix however that can simplify operations for the Chester-Wrexham shuttle.

Would it simplify things though when you look at the overall timetable? In theory, I agree with you, but looking at the timetables, I can't see how this would change anything really without either other signalling improvements, or without a major rewrite of the timetables.
As of the May timetable, the shuttles arrive into Wrexham at around same time that a northbound Shrewsbury - Chester - NWC train is leaving from platform 2. The shuttles towards Chester/Crewe must then leave from platform 2 as they leave just after the NWC-Chester-Shrewsbury train has arrived in platform 1. As such, the train would still need to shunt anyway because of the conflict.
Any changes to the timetables towards Crewe would mean having to leave earlier in order to leave Platform 1 and get to Rossett Junction before the SB Marches train and this would ultimately create conflicts at Chester and/or would be fitting into a very tight gap between the Liverpool and Manchester services. It would also mean that the 2 trains per hour towards Chester would depart at similar times, similarly from Chester to Crewe the Avanti/TFW services would be closer together.

While it may be the cheapest solution, when I'm looking at the bigger picture, I can't see it bringing any actual benefits to just change that one signal.


Other options which bring benefits and would work are:

• Fixed red on at the south end of Platform 2. The timetables are a little bit more flexible towards Wrexham and so perhaps then the shuttles can be routed straight into 2. Still saves the shunt movements but would make all Chester departures from the same platform and keeps the shuttle train out of the path of the southbound NWC-Chester-Shrewsbury train which must use platform 1.
• Make Platform 2 BiDi. Similar benefits to fixed red on P2 but gives more flexibility, especially in times of disruption. Would work well with the Platform 1 shunt signal changing to be a main aspect signal. Depends if the limited benefits are worth the extra cost.
• The more expensive option of a link from the Chester lines into Platform 3.

 

[Topological]

Is Cardiff to Newport constrained? They manage to run as 2 tracks when there are issues without too many problems?

I know there are the new Bristol trains to add, but surely it is possible to get even more services out of a 4-track mainline?

 

[Krokodil]

Is Cardiff to Newport constrained? They manage to run as 2 tracks when there are issues without too many problems?

I know there are the new Bristol trains to add, but surely it is possible to get even more services out of a 4-track mainline?

I think that capacity at Central is more of an issue, and where you send trains west thereof (particularly to terminate trains, getting stuff out of Canton involves crossing all lines.

 

[Topological]

I think that capacity at Central is more of an issue, and where you send trains west thereof (particularly to terminate trains, getting stuff out of Canton involves crossing all lines.

One obvious pairing would be the West Wales and something up the Marches every hour

I am biased, being West of Cardiff, but using the path that the peak extras to Swansea use all day would be good. It is a slightly slow path to Bridgend, but could also stop at the local stations.

With a bit more money, building out platforms 2 and 3 to the through lines would give you 4 5/6 coach platforms and still have 1 long platform for the GWR in 1 and 4.

There have been a lot of threads about Cardiff. It definitely needs sorting because the amount of times you end up waiting for a platform is really bad for so few services per hour.

 

[MarkyT]

I think that capacity at Central is more of an issue, and where you send trains west thereof (particularly to terminate trains, getting stuff out of Canton involves crossing all lines.

Strictly speaking the depot exit only blocks the westbound down main and relief and the city line. You can run from the depot in parallel with an up arrival from the west with some platform combinations, and you don't touch the Barry lines at all.
What might be good at the west end is a 'middle lane' track or preferably a pair of such lines between the up and down directions so a train exiting the depot can pull out and cross the downs in a convenient gap in traffic beforehand and await its platform much closer to the station with no more interaction with down trains. These lines could also be used as middle reversing sidings. Likely means removal of the long crossover right across the layout with the slips.

 

[Krokodil]

Strictly speaking the depot exit only blocks the westbound down main and relief and the city line. You can run from the depot in parallel with an up arrival from the west with some platform combinations, and you don't touch the Barry lines at all.

I was ignoring the Valley Lines platforms as this discussion centres around Main Line services. A train leaving the depot and going to platform 0 (an extreme example, granted) does have to be threaded through four lines worth of traffic, you may be able to get from 4 to the depot but Murphy's Law will state that the train in 4 will be a GWR unit waiting to head to Brickyard Siding.

The solution (with the existing infrastructure) is to send more trains west from Cardiff. This is contingent on capacity being available at least as far as Briton Ferry (Swansea would be a better destination than the District Line but if the four terminal platforms can't take extra traffic then at least the District Line gets trains out of the way).

 

[Topological]

I was ignoring the Valley Lines platforms as this discussion centres around Main Line services. A train leaving the depot and going to platform 0 (an extreme example, granted) does have to be threaded through four lines worth of traffic, you may be able to get from 4 to the depot but Murphy's Law will state that the train in 4 will be a GWR unit waiting to head to Brickyard Siding.

The solution (with the existing infrastructure) is to send more trains west from Cardiff. This is contingent on capacity being available at least as far as Briton Ferry (Swansea would be a better destination than the District Line but if the four terminal platforms can't take extra traffic then at least the District Line gets trains out of the way).

In a perfect world there would be enough GWR IETs that the Cardiff - Paddington could extend, then you would not need the Swansea terminator to sit for almost an hour. More problematic in the hours where half goes to Carmarthen, but maybe that is where a different train goes to Carmarthen via the District Line.

Alternatively, bring a 5-car GWR IET to Swansea from the South West. Then the xx35 arrival from London can send half to Carmarthen. The other 5-car can go back towards Cardiff as the Bristol service around xx00 (forming the South West train from Cardiff 1 hour later) and then the arrival in from the South West, which should reach Swansea around xx05 would meet the 5-car coming in from Carmarthen to be the xx22 to London as now. More complex, but would work and remove the South West terminator from Cardiff.

I still think 4 platforms should be able to handle 4/5 tph between Swansea and Cardiff.

 

[Harpo]

One obvious pairing would be the West Wales and something up the Marches every hour

I’d like to see an hourly West Wales alternate between Manchester and Birmingham. (South Wales desperately needs rid of XC’s inherent unreliability.)

There have been a lot of threads about Cardiff. It definitely needs sorting because the amount of times you end up waiting for a platform is really bad for so few services per hour.

Cardiff Central’s fundamental problem has always been that it is a through station trying to be a terminus.

 

[richard_S]

There is an interesting problem that could develop at Wrexham. As the football ground next to the station is building a huge new stand. This could put pressure on the existing station layout. One solution is to reinstate platform 5 and give access onto Crispin Lane. This would give easy access to the ground for football specials. An added bonus would be trains from Crewe, Leeds and Manchester Piccadilly that terminate at Chester could be extended to terminate at Wrexham.

 

[The Planner]

There is an interesting problem that could develop at Wrexham. As the football ground next to the station is building a huge new stand. This could put pressure on the existing station layout. One solution is to reinstate platform 5 and give access onto Crispin Lane. This would give easy access to the ground for football specials. An added bonus would be trains from Crewe, Leeds and London Euston that terminate at Chester could be extended to terminate at Wrexham.

Is Ryan Reynolds going to fund that? Football specials don't really happen these days.

 

[richard_S]

Is Ryan Reynolds going to fund that? Football specials don't really happen these days.

OK but I am sure the rail network will be used more. If not it still could be a terminus for trains from Crewe, Leeds and Manchester Piccadilly. At the moment you have to change at Chester to get to most places.

 

[Krokodil]

OK but I am sure the rail network will be used more. If not it still could be a terminus for trains from Crewe, Leeds and Manchester Piccadilly. At the moment you have to change at Chester to get to most places.

Trains from Crewe already run through to Wrexham. How do you propose to get any more trains through Chester? There are only three through platforms, and one of those is of comparatively limited use because of Merseyrail.

 

[richard_S]

Trains from Crewe already run through to Wrexham. How do you propose to get any more trains through Chester? There are only three through platforms, and one of those is of comparatively limited use because of Merseyrail.

TfW are going to provide another island platform. Its just when!

 

[markymark2000]

There is an interesting problem that could develop at Wrexham. As the football ground next to the station is building a huge new stand. This could put pressure on the existing station layout. One solution is to reinstate platform 5 and give access onto Crispin Lane. This would give easy access to the ground for football specials. An added bonus would be trains from Crewe, Leeds and Manchester Piccadilly that terminate at Chester could be extended to terminate at Wrexham.

That'd be a bit of a waste of money given the existing platform 3 is lightly used, and 1/2 are used by normally 2 trains per hour. You also have to consider that the capacity between Wrexham and Chester is somewhere around around 6 trains per hour overall (given it takes 6 minutes to do Wrexham - Rossett and you will want some padding in there so a small delay doesn't spiral). That's only 3tph each way, and currently there is 4tph each way. 1 NWC-Shrewsbury and 1 Wrexham - Crewe. So you've got some capacity there, but not enough for Leeds and Manchester Piccadillys to extend. That's before looking at units and staffing to resource the extensions.

What could and should happen though, without delay, is more points added so that trains from the Chester direction can get into platform 3. This would enable the Wrexham-Crewe services as well as a number of other services to turn around much quicker as they wouldn't have to faff around shunting (which has many benefits for drivers driving time, less closures of the level crossing, more flexibility with timetabling, less diesel being used and less pollution as engines could turn off on any long dwell etc etc). If there is space for any extra trains then too, it will reduce the amount of time it takes for a round trip so it's easier and cheaper to resource.


In terms of the station layout, this will change a lot in the next few years with the Wrexham Gateway plans which in theory will deliver a lot more pedestrian spaces around the station (whether that is space which lends itself well to queuing systems, time will tell. But I think the station would cope fine if they just sorted the points so that platform 3 was more useful for the Chester direction. The rest of it could be sorted with strengthening existing services (units dependant) and queuing systems outside the station (which I presume already happens).

 

[The Mercian]

TfW are going to provide another island platform. Its just when!

I’d assume that’s to the North of current main island?

 

[richard_S]

Yes I think so. document ( https://tfw.wales/projects/network-north-wales ) says by 2035 "Increase platform capacity at Chester railway station."