SWR cracking down on Vauxhall - Waterloo doughnuts/short fares - Also GTR

[Sonic1234]

Or, hear me out, we could invest in and run a proper revenue protection system with enough staff and reliable systems and methods that would catch short farers, people without railcards, people doing refund fraud, and all the other types of fare evasion

What would this cost and would it recover it's costs?

I expect even now we're at the point where it's marginal if revenue protection brings in more money than it costs. A lot of fare evasion won't be recoverable. Commuters short faring is a target because it's clearly trying to cheat the railway, it's people whose travel isn't discretionary (at least in the short term) and is done by the sort of people who leave a digital trail and don't go punching RPIs. Same for the middle class student who let their railcard expire by a few days.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2026 ==

Temporarily stopping the ability to buy a ticket on an app from certain stations seems unfair to me and simply causes more problems.

Only if people don't read what their app says when it gives a collection code rather than a ticket. It wasn't that long ago that travelling by train meant collecting a physical ticket.

 

[Failed Unit]

I have known many companies use the token. I remember Scotrail doing it at Edinburgh Waverley when they handed out the token at South Gyle. However in that situation the person was attempting to buy the ticket on the platform at Edinburgh and Scotrail had put a block on at South Gyle so it was not possible to get on the platform without either a token or a ticket. I think people who had a ticket to South Gyle and were just extending their journey this was fine as long as they could produce the other ticket.

The GTR situation is interesting. I only know the northern but well. On Thameslink there are many stations with no barriers. The same on Great Northern,Hendon and New Southgate to name 2. I suspect most people using either of these will use contactless and not consider barcodes. I typically use Old Street or Moorgate, I would never use a QR code reader here as I don’t recall it have the technology to read them. Further North, I suspect places like Aylesey and Flickwick don’t have revenue protection, nor in the TfL area. But surely if an inspector got on a Stevenage and someone purchased a QR code ticket from Stevenage to London they would question why it was never scanned at Stevenage station?

 

[frankmoh]

Elephant & Castle station is just a bit odd since it has no barriers despite being in zone 1 (slash 2). Fare evasion has been rampant there from what I've seen.

 

[Gareth1990]

Was the reason they sold e-tickets between Vauxhall and London precisely so they could catch fare dodgers or am I being too conspiratorial?

 

[AlterEgo]

Was the reason they sold e-tickets between Vauxhall and London precisely so they could catch fare dodgers or am I being too conspiratorial?

How would that work?

 

[Tom]

Or, hear me out, we could invest in and run a proper revenue protection system with enough staff and reliable systems and methods that would catch short farers, people without railcards, people doing refund fraud, and all the other types of fare evasion

Alas the railway would rather have its cake and eat it reducing staff numbers who can not only check tickets but also provide good customer service, and increasing reliance on AI because some consultant said it was a great idea.

Railways are a people business and it’s our job to move people. People often value good human interaction too. Something often forgotten.

 

[Gareth1990]

How would that work?

Because according to this thread the only people who buy these tickets are fare dodging…

 

[Kite159]

Often these fare evaders are too dumb to realise they're just creating a digital record for the railways to use against them.

Often those fare evaders are too dumb to realise that the member of revenue staff/guard can see the time of purchase.

 

[Sonic1234]

inspector got on a Stevenage

In my personal non-commuting experience, the response would be "what inspector?" They must exist as there are Thameslink cases on the forums. If you can get in/out of the stations, probably the cheapest way to travel on Thameslink is to pay GTR a settlement every 5-10 years when they check your ticket.

 

[Failed Unit]

In my personal non-commuting experience, the response would be "what inspector?" They must exist as there are Thameslink cases on the forums. If you can get in/out of the stations, probably the cheapest way to travel on Thameslink is to pay GTR a settlement every 5-10 years when they check your ticket.

GN are actually fairly well represented. They have a lot based at Welwyn Garden City. I normally get “Hit” every couple of weeks on a train. They maybe more frequent visitors to the slower trains as they cover more unstaffed stations.

 

[saismee]

GN are actually fairly well represented. They have a lot based at Welwyn Garden City. I normally get “Hit” every couple of weeks on a train. They maybe more frequent visitors to the slower trains as they cover more unstaffed stations.

I've seen a lot of inspectors between Cambridge, Ely, and King's Lynn. I've been checked probably about 80% of the time. Never seen one on Thameslink though I have only used it between Farringdon and St Pancras.

 

[Falcon1200]

the response would be "what inspector?

I agree absolutely that there should be more, and better, ticket checks on trains, but how many staff would be required to check, rigorously, every ticket (and Railcard) on a crowded 10 or 12 car train into Waterloo?

 

[AlterEgo]

Because according to this thread the only people who buy these tickets are fare dodging…

People get away with this sort of short faring for a very long time, and they are actually taking them away.

 

[Sonic1234]

I agree absolutely that there should be more, and better, ticket checks on trains, but how many staff would be required to check, rigorously, every ticket (and Railcard) on a crowded 10 or 12 car train into Waterloo?

It wouldn't need to be a rigorous ticket check or even that frequent, just enough to make it feel like it's a possibility.

If you don't leave a digital trail, paying off GTR when you get a ticket check probably makes economic sense.

 

[Kilopylae]

Being cynical, I’d say that playing the anxiety card is more a case of trying it on hoping to get a more favourable outcome when caught.

Someone with genuine anxiety surely seeks to avoid stressful situations so would buy the right ticket to avoid the situation of being stopped and questioned.

I broadly share the common sense view that people say they have anxiety after being caught because they're trying to 'pull the mental health card'. Equally - we're not getting a representative sample of all casual fare evaders; we're getting the ones who are genuinely nervous enough to look for advice on an online form. That could also be a factor.

Things like making e-tickets non-transferrable, other than through a regulated "gifting" process, would also go a long way towards making it so the account holder can be legally assumed to be the ticket user.

Aside from the points already raised about child tickets and group travel, this would make life much harder for people whose job (like mine) involves booking tickets for colleagues and clients. Presently, an e-Ticket can be bought and the e-mail forwarded, that's it. A transfer process - I'm imagining something like they have on bus season ticket apps - would be a nightmare.

It's also not going to make a jot of difference to people buying short fares to open the barriers at the end of a long journey!

GN are actually fairly well represented. They have a lot based at Welwyn Garden City. I normally get “Hit” every couple of weeks on a train. They maybe more frequent visitors to the slower trains as they cover more unstaffed stations.

I've seen ticket inspectors between Moorgate and Old Street/Essex Road twice in the last six months.

 

[Snow1964]

Or, hear me out, we could invest in and run a proper revenue protection system with enough staff and reliable systems and methods that would catch short farers, people without railcards, people doing refund fraud, and all the other types of fare evasion

What would this cost and would it recover it's costs?

To cover the costs of a revenue person need to collect about £250-300 per day of missing fares

Very roughly, let's say £40k salary, add about £15-20k for employers NI, pension, HR costs and bit for training. Then use say 220 days a year allowing 2 weeks for non revenue training etc

 

[Puffing Devil]

To cover the costs of a revenue person need to collect about £250-300 per day of missing fares

Very roughly, let's say £40k salary, add about £15-20k for employers NI, pension, HR costs and bit for training. Then use say 220 days a year allowing 2 weeks for non revenue training etc

Or "encourage the payment of" those missing fares. If people believe that they will be caught, they are more likely to pay.

 

[copernicium112]

GN are actually fairly well represented. They have a lot based at Welwyn Garden City. I normally get “Hit” every couple of weeks on a train. They maybe more frequent visitors to the slower trains as they cover more unstaffed stations.

Great Northern are good at on train inspections. I travel from Finsbury to Welwyn Garden City twice a week and get inspected roughly every two weeks on board.

Welwyn Garden City also has their barriers set to reject any ticket with a Railcard applied, meaning these tickets must be manually (and often slowly) inspected, which I for one, as someone who holds a valid Railcard find very irritating.

 

[Egg Centric]

I doubt it. Yes for some, but the majority are hardened through the thrill and the justice in their eyes of not paying. I knew people that used to call the bendy buses in London "the free bus" not because they couldn't afford a bus fare, just they didn't, in their eyes, feel any need to pay for it

This might be true for the likes of Johnathan Burrows but I strongly doubt in the general case that "thrill" has anything to do with it and any "justice" element tends to be a post hoc justification. I base that not just on gut feel but also on the threads started here which usually mention either financial hardship or just plain not wanting to pay for things.

It seems pretty obvious that lower fares would lead to less evasion by the "financial hardship" bunch and no difference to the "not wanting to pay for things" bunch.

For the former, if there's spare capacity ideally you want some kind of solution for those who can't pay current fares to pay lesser ones (but in a way that is revenue positive, so you can't just lower fares for everyone). Thus things like JSA Railcards, local travel to work initiatives, etc although far more can be done in principle with dynamic pricing. If however there isn't spare capacity then ultimately price is the best known way of rationing scarce resource and if they can't travel by rail honestly then they can't travel by rail.

For the latter, barring significant societal cultural change, more credible and well known enforcement is the only real solution. The word is getting out slowly I think but even so I bet most people still have no idea the scale of the TOC prosecution mincemeat machine.

 

[Failed Unit]

Great Northern are good at on train inspections. I travel from Finsbury to Welwyn Garden City twice a week and get inspected roughly every two weeks on board.

Welwyn Garden City also has their barriers set to reject any ticket with a Railcard applied, meaning these tickets must be manually (and often slowly) inspected, which I for one, as someone who holds a valid Railcard find very irritating.

That is why I have stopped using Carnet - I have missed trains at Kings Cross trying to attract the attention of someone that will open the barrier. Likewise as you say it is slow to get out at Welwyn Garden City. It always amuses me when the barriers are actually open at WGC how many people still scan the QR code or put paper tickets through the barrier, which negates the barriers being open.

 

[Swedenorer]

To cover the costs of a revenue person need to collect about £250-300 per day of missing fares

Very roughly, let's say £40k salary, add about £15-20k for employers NI, pension, HR costs and bit for training. Then use say 220 days a year allowing 2 weeks for non revenue training etc

This is the answer to the wrong question. The question is 'how seriously do we take revenue protection?' In truth my perception of the answer to that travailing mainly in the old SR is not very. When Southern was a single franchise things were much different and revenue blocks were even held at a few 'harp and slab' backwaters with, I understand, interesting results. You can't apply cost benefit analysis to this aspect of any business. If it's working properly the staff would never 'pay for themselves' in the way outlined.

 

[MikeWh]

It always amuses me when the barriers are actually open at WGC how many people still scan the QR code or put paper tickets through the barrier, which negates the barriers being open.

Of course contactless users have to touch in/out even if the gates are open. I generally do whatever is needed with tickets even if there's an open barrier because I don't want to lose the habit of always touching.

 

[Sonic1234]

This might be true for the likes of Johnathan Burrows but I strongly doubt in the general case that "thrill" has anything to do with it and any "justice" element tends to be a post hoc justification. I base that not just on gut feel but also on the threads started here which usually mention either financial hardship or just plain not wanting to pay for things.

Or it's people not valuing the service at the price charged for it. They what how much for a rubbish service?

There is a cultural element to not valuing transport, usually because the comparator is the car which most people price at zero (for a short journey) or a low-ball estimate of the cost of petrol (for a long journey) in their head. £5 for a coffee is acceptable, £5 on the bus is extortionate.

 

[35B]

This is the answer to the wrong question. The question is 'how seriously do we take revenue protection?' In truth my perception of the answer to that travailing mainly in the old SR is not very. When Southern was a single franchise things were much different and revenue blocks were even held at a few 'harp and slab' backwaters with, I understand, interesting results. You can't apply cost benefit analysis to this aspect of any business. If it's working properly the staff would never 'pay for themselves' in the way outlined.

Hard disagree. Revenue protection has both a cost and a value. The cost is easily measured in pay and materials, the gain much harder to assess.

Without some level of enforcement, there would be no ticket income as no one would pay to travel. If enforcement were absolutely fool proof, travel would be so unpleasant that demand would fall. A balance between the two needs to be struck, such that as many people as possible travel, but with a minimum of fare dodging. Due to the other adverse consequences of total non-enforcement (vandalism, hooliganism, etc.), the balance is tipped in favour of enforcement as a way to reduce those costs.

Railways are commercial organisations. They need to balance these (and many other factors) to deliver successfully.

 

[saismee]

Of course contactless users have to touch in/out even if the gates are open. I generally do whatever is needed with tickets even if there's an open barrier because I don't want to lose the habit of always touching.

If a member of staff is near the barriers while they are (unexpectedly) open, people seem to have the desire to approach them to show them a ticket, no matter what they are currently doing. The other day I had the barriers open while trying to fix a fault and 3 (three!!!) cyclists in a row approached me to show me their ticket while I am crouched down, practically disassembling the barrier. Bear in mind these are all E-tickets as we do not accept contactless.

Passengers seem to like to inconvenience themselves for some reason. I do appreciate the honesty though.

 

[yorkie]

What would this cost and would it recover it's costs?

It's already in place up in Yorkshire, Glasgow and many other places.

Admittedly an approach that works in one area can't necessarily be applied to another. But there is clearly a big problem on SWR.

 

[Sonic1234]

I do appreciate the honesty though.

That's why they do it, because it feels like you're dodging fares if you just walk through while someone is present.

I was leaving Mortlake station (ungated) once and the ticket office clerk was waving at everyone tapping out. I was on a paper ticket so I got it out to show I had paid, walking past the Oyster pads while being watched felt wrong.

 

[JonathanH]

If a member of staff is near the barriers while they are (unexpectedly) open, people seem to have the desire to approach them to show them a ticket, no matter what they are currently doing. The other day I had the barriers open while trying to fix a fault and 3 (three!!!) cyclists in a row approached me to show me their ticket while I am crouched down, practically disassembling the barrier. Bear in mind these are all E-tickets as we do not accept contactless.

I can see why. No one wants to be called back having passed the member of staff.

If a member of staff is stood by open barriers, then it is reasonable to expect that they are doing manual checks, and a passenger should present a ticket when asked by a member of staff.

Seems a reasonable interpretation of "Where the entrance to or exit from any platform or station is via a manned or an automatic ticket barrier no person shall enter or leave the station, except with permission from an authorised person, without passing through the barrier in the correct manner."

 

[MrToad]

Not exactly fare evasion, but another thing to throw into the mix is that many tourist sites and forums recommend the 2 for 1 "Days Out" where you can get discounted entry to a number of London attractions if you travelled by train, which is promoted by National Rail. The scheme includes a large number of attractions such as the London Dungeons, St Pauls, London Transport Museum and Westminster Abbey. You need to show the train tickets to be able to claim the 2 for 1 discount.

Often, the Vauxhall to Waterloo journey is suggested as a cheap way to get tickets. Of course many people get into London by a number of means, none of which involve trains, or actually live there, so the tickets go unused other than for the purpose of claiming the discount and there is no fare evasion. I guess they could check to see if rail tickets were actually used for travel but there is no real way that the attractions could check this.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Often, the Vauxhall to Waterloo journey is suggested as a cheap way to get tickets.

That could be distorting the statistics as to how many Vauxhall to Waterloo tickets are sold. The same could apply to any short distance pair, Farringdon to Kings Cross for example.