• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Delayed due to failure of Tesco daventry - coatbridge DRS service (17/12)

Huntergreed

Established Member
Associate Staff
Events Co-ordinator
Joined
16 Jan 2016
Messages
3,173
Location
Dumfries
It’s very busy here - we’ve been advised that if our journey is not time critical, we should catch the 11:33 Transpennine service instead.

The queue on platform 3 isn’t much better with the Edinburgh service (TPE) having been terminated short at Carlisle.

View attachment IMG_2437.jpeg

(Image shows a large crowd on platform 4 at Carlisle awaiting the first southbound train. Across the track, another large crowd can be seen on platform 3 awaiting a Northbound service).

Thankfully I’ve managed to get on the 10:35 which isn’t as busy as I feared. I’m standing but there aren’t too many of us standing.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

172007

Member
Joined
2 Jan 2021
Messages
1,132
Location
West Mids
Time for the FOC's MD to get an early bath perhaps.
Wonder how much influence GBR once up and running (or when Avanti are natiinalised) can influence state owned DRS's decision over using single 88's, clear the DFT are not able to.
 

D1537

Established Member
Joined
11 Jul 2019
Messages
2,027
Location
North Yorkshire
We have diverted to Penrith and are currently waiting for 1S48 which got cancelled ... and then reinstated.

9M54 is here now so I hope @D1511 is moving at last!
 

Port Road

Member
Joined
27 Sep 2025
Messages
84
Location
Scotland
Actually, I see it lost 10 minutes between Carstairs and Abington, so I suspect a loco problem

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


Any sensible human would assume that, but sometimes signallers are anything but......
You know who made the decision to keep it running, then?

Maybe "control"; or maybe it's too long with the extra loco....but neither you, nor I, know the behind the scenes situation. One thing for sure - there is always a reason for everything that happens.

However, absolutely dreadful for the passengers yet again.

As 'Falcon1200' says above (and I argued for years when signalling on the WCML) bi-directional signalling from (say) Wigan to Glasgow & Edinburgh (even 'simbids' in those days) would pay for itself in a very short space of time. Especially considering the dog's dinner that is now the WCML on what seems a like daily basis.
 

D1511

Member
Joined
29 Jul 2023
Messages
1,199
Location
WCML N
We have diverted to Penrith and are currently waiting for 1S48 which got cancelled ... and then reinstated.

9M54 is here now so I hope @D1511 is moving at last!
Yes thank you.....just about to alight at Stafford a mere 263 late.
Hope you got a seat on 1S48!
 

D1537

Established Member
Joined
11 Jul 2019
Messages
2,027
Location
North Yorkshire
Yes thank you.....just about to alight at Stafford a mere 263 late.
Hope you got a seat on 1S48!
It was, oddly, half-empty!

I was a bit concerned when 4S43 in front of us started dropping time up to Beattock but once it staggered over the summit it was fine :)
 

Strathclyder

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2013
Messages
3,819
Location
Clydebank
9M50 returning to Edinburgh to form 9M52, so another costly delay repay bill caused by DRS failing to allocate adequate motive power.
Can't they be mandated by NR to double head all Daventry services over Beattock? The continued disruption is intolerable.
Should be a condition of the contract for all cross-border container flows regardless of the weather and railhead conditions if it isn't already imho; Freightliner do just that with their 90s (and the 86s in times gone by) and they don't seem to suffer nearly as many issues. I've often wondered how a 99 running on electric would cope with a similar load headed north up Beattock/Shap in the damp conditions we've had there today whenever this thread pops up; a damn sight better than a single 88 would I suspect.

It's been a complete farce for far too long, but since nothing's really changed thus far, why would it now? There's no intolerable threshold of disruption to be crossed it seems; if there were, DRS would've had the boot firmly stuck into them ages ago and double-heading over Shap/Beattock would've been the norm rather than the exception.
 
Last edited:

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,581
bi-directional signalling from (say) Wigan to Glasgow & Edinburgh (even 'simbids' in those days) would pay for itself in a very short space of time.

it wouldn’t.

it *might* do if installed at the same time as complete resignalling. But that is a while off.
 

QueensCurve

Established Member
Joined
22 Dec 2014
Messages
2,195
As 'Falcon1200' says above (and I argued for years when signalling on the WCML) bi-directional signalling from (say) Wigan to Glasgow & Edinburgh (even 'simbids' in those days) would pay for itself in a very short space of time. Especially considering the dog's dinner that is now the WCML on what seems a like daily basis.
My feelings exactly. Even if only on the up line on Beattock bank it would help
 

The Planner

Veteran Member
Joined
15 Apr 2008
Messages
19,628
I've long left involvement but it was the case that there was then a document titled 'Freight Trains Load Book' ('FTLB') which listed, as its name suggests, the maximum load by loco class over each section of route. When a consist was input into TOPS the system checked that the load conformed to the FTLB for the class concerned. It could only be departed if it did.

Has the system changed? If it is still the same in principle, then if Network Rail - who now manage TOPS - accept the train onto the network as conforming do they not bear
some responsibility?
Depends if its running as a specially authorised load or a trial.
 

Adrian Barr

Member
Joined
2 Jul 2020
Messages
743
Location
Doncaster
Anybody know what is hauling it and what the train weight is?

88010 on 4M27 had 1283 tons behind it today, which is below their 1400 ton max load.

I've long left involvement but it was the case that there was then a document titled 'Freight Trains Load Book' ('FTLB') which listed, as its name suggests, the maximum load by loco class over each section of route.

The traditional system of the loads books still applies (albeit now in the form of an excel spreadsheet). Class 88s working solo are authorised to haul a trailing tonnage of 1400 tons in either direction between Daventry and Coatbridge. The loads book takes into account the characteristics of each line (mainly the gradients) as you would expect, but warns that adverse weather conditions can sometimes reduce the weight a loco is able to pull:

The manual assumes standard train resistance and adhesion parameters. Train resistance can alter significantly due to atmospheric conditions such as headwinds. Adhesion can be significantly reduced by adverse railhead conditions.

In today's case it looks like the issue with 88010 on 4M27 was a loco fault, rather than a problem with adhesion.

Also of interest in relation to this thread is that class 93s were recently tested by DRS on these Daventry - Coatbridge Tesco services, with 93009 working a 4Q45 / 4Q27 diagram in mid-July. 4Q27 was running in the path of the usual 4M27 service, i.e. the one which had problems today. With 9 workings in each direction taking place between the 12th and 22nd July using a class 93, it suggests that serious consideration is being given to using these locos on the services in the future (other tests by DB Cargo and Freightliner using class 93s on this route have been more of a one-off demonstration run).

See the class 93 thread for more info and discussion on this topic - in post #2494 it was suggested the DRS lease agreement for the 88s ends in 2027, which could be significant. Whether class 93s will take over these Daventry - Coatbridge services for DRS at some point is open to speculation, but after this recent trial (and the earlier decision to move the home base of the class 93s to the DRS depot at Crewe Gresty Bridge) I'm cautiously optimistic. Although based on the class 88s, the 93s are a later development of the design which seems to be a bit more capable, and I think they could be a worthwhile improvement which would hopefully alleviate some of the issues discussed in this thread.

Although I've questioned the suitability of 88s on these services, I think it's fair to point out that the signalling is also inadequate in the event of a train failure, with the 2-track section of the WCML north of Preston sorely in need of bi-directional signalling, as per the comment in post #148 of this thread. Hopefully this can be done at some stage, although given the cost it would almost certainly have to wait until sections of the existing signalling become life-expired and due for renewal. With bi-directional signalling, a failed train still causes delays, but not the kind of service meltdown we see at the moment.
 

Peter0124

Established Member
Joined
20 Nov 2016
Messages
2,740
Location
Glasgow
It was, oddly, half-empty!

I was a bit concerned when 4S43 in front of us started dropping time up to Beattock but once it staggered over the summit it was fine :)
I genuinely believe if you want a decent chance at getting delay repay, just book 1S48. Yesterday it was 34L into Glasgow because 4S43 had problems at Beattock.
 

Falcon1200

Established Member
Joined
14 Jun 2021
Messages
6,496
Location
Neilston, East Renfrewshire
it wouldn’t.

it *might* do if installed at the same time as complete resignalling. But that is a while off.

It wouldn't in a short space of time, I agree, but I have been moaning about this for at least 25 years! Numerous incidents occurred during my Control time when bi-di would have made a huge difference and I have been heavily delayed, in one case for 4 hours (by the very train which this thread is about) many times since. I tried to make the point, at one if not more of the inevitable post-incident inquests, that the total delay and cost to the industry caused by the lack of bi-di signalling should be calculated, on an ongoing basis, but my plea fell on deaf ears.
 

boom boom

Member
Joined
17 Jan 2014
Messages
30
DRS Service 4S45 failed on Beattock in the early hours. An 88 leading.Freights and sleepers delayed . Worst casualty 1S25 sleeper to Inverness now 180 late approaching Stirling. Fort William and Aberdeen section also significantly delayed
 

RGM654

Member
Joined
19 Jul 2022
Messages
242
Location
Harrow
At one time (many years ago) almost any following train could give a failed train a push. Then someone decided to allow several sorts of incompatible couplings.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
18,726
Just for a bit of variety, it is 4M27 that has failed on the southbound approach to Beattock today. Currently sitting on 9M50 in the platform at Carstairs awaiting a decision on whether we're returning to Glasgow or Edinburgh. :rolleyes:
Of course, if the passenger trains were still locomotive hauled, they could have given a push from behind.
 

Freightmaster

Verified Rep
Joined
7 Jul 2009
Messages
4,409
DRS Service 4S45 failed on Beattock in the early hours. An 88 leading.Freights and sleepers delayed . Worst casualty 1S25 sleeper to Inverness now 180 late approaching Stirling. Fort William and Aberdeen section also significantly delayed

I think Network Rail needs to 'have a word' with DRS about this ongoing situation with the
reliability/capability of their loco fleet or it will be absolute carnage during leaf-fall season! o_O
 

pokemonsuper9

Established Member
Joined
20 Dec 2022
Messages
4,584
Location
Greater Manchester
I think Network Rail needs to 'have a word' with DRS about this ongoing situation with the
reliability/capability of their loco fleet or it will be absolute carnage during leaf-fall season! o_O
Don't they usually put 2 locos on as standard during leaf fall season?
I can't imagine Tesco are happy about the failures either given it's their products being delayed from reaching shelves.
 

Peter0124

Established Member
Joined
20 Nov 2016
Messages
2,740
Location
Glasgow
DRS Service 4S45 failed on Beattock in the early hours. An 88 leading.Freights and sleepers delayed . Worst casualty 1S25 sleeper to Inverness now 180 late approaching Stirling. Fort William and Aberdeen section also significantly delayed
Isn't that the return of 4M27 which also failed at Beattock that same day, so 88010 was used on both?
 

Port Road

Member
Joined
27 Sep 2025
Messages
84
Location
Scotland
It wouldn't in a short space of time, I agree, but I have been moaning about this for at least 25 years! Numerous incidents occurred during my Control time when bi-di would have made a huge difference and I have been heavily delayed, in one case for 4 hours (by the very train which this thread is about) many times since. I tried to make the point, at one if not more of the inevitable post-incident inquests, that the total delay and cost to the industry caused by the lack of bi-di signalling should be calculated, on an ongoing basis, but my plea fell on deaf ears.
Agreed; it's a no-brainer. In most of mainland Europe the entire rail systems have bi-di signalling *sigh*.

I believe 'simbids' is banned here now due to 'reasons' sadly - it's cheaper to install. Yet we can waste around a hundred thousand millions on a now infamous white elephant that I won't mention....
 

NeilCr

Member
Joined
26 Feb 2019
Messages
310
At one time (many years ago) almost any following train could give a failed train a push. Then someone decided to allow several sorts of incompatible couplings.

i've recounted this before :)

A lot of years ago I was travelling from London Victoria to Broadstairs. We ground to a halt and the driver told us that the train in front of us had failed
just outside Gillingham. A while later he came in to say that we were going to try to push the train into Gillingham Station

It ended up with two stuck trains that needed rescuing ....
 

172007

Member
Joined
2 Jan 2021
Messages
1,132
Location
West Mids
Political pressure needs to be brought.

The MP's whose constituences contain West Coast mainline North stations or have constituents affected by delays / cancellations to services including for the central belt area (Limo to Strirling) and Edinburgh need to petition the Secretary of State untimately reaponsible for the use of single Class 88's on these Direct Rail Services. Then hopefully something will be done.

The minister ultimately responsible is Miatta Fahnbulleh MP Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero
 
Last edited:

sh24

Established Member
Joined
28 Sep 2023
Messages
1,471
Location
London
Political pressure needs to be brought.

The MP's whose constituences contain West Coast mainline North stations or have constituents affected by delays / cancellations to services including for the central belt area (Limo to Strirling) and Edinburgh need to petition the Secretary of State untimately reaponsible for the use of single Class 88's on these Direct Rail Services. Then hopefully something will be done.

The minister ultimately responsible is Miatta Fahnbulleh MP Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero

Why would the SoS for Net Zero be involved in a Transport issue?

Out of interest, internal within the "railway" is there a forum where issues like this could be raised and discussed? Or is it ad hoc?
 

172007

Member
Joined
2 Jan 2021
Messages
1,132
Location
West Mids
No

Its like saying a DEFRA minister is in charge of the roads if a lorry full of sheep crashes
If the Lorry was run / owned by a government agency and blocked the M6 in both directions multiple times of the year during the day questions would be asked at PMQ's let alone to the minister responsible.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Why would the SoS for Net Zero be involved in a Transport issue?

Out of interest, internal within the "railway" is there a forum where issues like this could be raised and discussed? Or is it ad hoc?
Because DRS are state owned and come under that ministers remit.
 

Strathclyder

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2013
Messages
3,819
Location
Clydebank
I really have to ask, did these trains suffer these kinds of repeated problems when it was hauled by double-headed 57s, 66s or even 37s in the pre-68/88 era? From this layman's perspective, having to cough up the Delay Repay cash each and every time one of their liners sits down north of Preston, kneecapping the WCML passenger timetable for the rest of the day and potentially a good chunk of the next, balances out or outright negates the savings of using a single 88 over a pair of them on these workings.

I honestly think the only way for it to get through the heads of the DRS management that this has long gone beyond unacceptable is for their company to be named and shamed in the railway/wider press and across social media each time it happens. The fact the WCML north of Preston doesn't have bi-di-signalling throughout for situations like this isn't the fault of DRS. The repeated failure to provide adequate motive power to mitigate what are clearly well-known issues their trains suffer on this part of the WCML is very much within their control and they honestly deserve the scorn thrown their way for it. There are multiple variables affecting tractive effort that can't reasonably be accounted for, this isn't one of them.

Don't they usually put 2 locos on as standard during leaf fall season?
I can't imagine Tesco are happy about the failures either given it's their products being delayed from reaching shelves.
If I were Tesco's CEO, I'd be phoning up DRS management directly and making my feelings on this crystal-clear.

Heck, if it were possible (it isn't for all sorts of reasons), I'd even escalate it to the point of threatening to withdraw from the contract altogether as soon as would be practical unless DRS pull their head out their backside and sort this out properly.
 
Last edited:

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
18,726
I really have to ask, did these trains suffer these kind of repeated problems when it was, say, hauled by double-headed 57s, 66s or even 37s in the pre-68/88 era? From this layman's perspective, having to cough up the Delay Repay cash each and every time one of their liners sits down north of Preston
DRS don't pay delay repay cash - that's down to Avanti/TPE/Caledonian Sleeper. DRS are liable for penalties under their contract with Network Rail, but that is not in any way linked to Delay Repay.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,581
It wouldn't in a short space of time, I agree, but I have been moaning about this for at least 25 years! Numerous incidents occurred during my Control time when bi-di would have made a huge difference and I have been heavily delayed, in one case for 4 hours (by the very train which this thread is about) many times since. I tried to make the point, at one if not more of the inevitable post-incident inquests, that the total delay and cost to the industry caused by the lack of bi-di signalling should be calculated, on an ongoing basis, but my plea fell on deaf ears.

The costs of any such delay are actually relatively small. I haven’t seen the numbers for this recent incident, but I’d be surprised if the costs in terms of lost revenue, delay repay, taxis / buses, additional staff / overtime etc exceeded £200k.

There would still be costs for the same incident but with bidi signalling in place. Trains would still be delayed (and in both directions, waiting for the single line), so whilst the costs would be lower, they would still be there. The difference between the two is your cost saving. I’d be very surprised if it was more than £100k for each such incident.

Then you have to allow the additional costs of maintaining all the extra kit, and of course the delays incurred if/when some parts of the new kit fail.

Now I don’t know how many such incidents there are a year, but you would need an awful lot of them to pay for installing bidi on the current signalling, which for (say) Gretna - Carstairs I can’t see there being much change out of £100m if done as a standalone project.


I believe 'simbids' is banned here now due to 'reasons' sadly

Banned? What do you mean?



I really have to ask, did these trains suffer these kind of repeated problems when it was, say, hauled by double-headed 57s, 66s or even 37s in the pre-68/88 era?

Yes, regularly. But the passenger service was about half of what it is now, so the impact was proportionally smaller.
 

Top