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The cost of living agenda - how should the railway contribute ?

What approach should the PM take in making passenger rail contribute to the cost of living agenda

  • Ongoing fares freeze/cap

    Votes: 30 15.9%
  • Nationwide Network Card/National Railcard

    Votes: 53 28.0%
  • Abolish peak fares

    Votes: 49 25.9%
  • Tax/salary incentive

    Votes: 8 4.2%
  • Better fares competition on the railway

    Votes: 12 6.3%
  • Other

    Votes: 12 6.3%
  • Nothing - everything's honky-dory

    Votes: 20 10.6%
  • Income based railcard/discount

    Votes: 5 2.6%

  • Total voters
    189

sh24

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Dynamic pricing is a logical step for products that are perishable, and especially those that have fixed supply and highly variable demand by time and season. We could get rid, but it would almost certainly increase the subsidy.

The railway doesn't exist in a vacuum of pricing signals. Depending on route there are buses, coaches, planes, cabs, car hire as options, or even other train operators.
 
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yorksrob

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On some routes the railway is a service with fixed supply and very dynamic demand, so needs some form of dynamic pricing to match demand to supply. For services where demand exceeds supply, dynamic pricing is, in economic terms, similar to an auction.

Or - you could give people the freedom to travel on a later, less crowded train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Seatfrog?

Seatfrog isn't the underlying pricing structure though.
 

Mgameing123

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I put other.

I think Railcards should be abolished. People can still take advantage of discounts, just without the faff and cost of buying and carrying a Railcard beforehand. There may be a couple of Railcards which make sense to retain due to eligibility proof, but on the whole passengers should be able to take advantage of discounted fares without buying a Railcard in advance. This will also reduce the need for penalties when people's Railcards expire or whatever.

The complexity of the fares system need reducing. There will always be some complexity, but the current state of affairs is absurd.

When I travel between Wales and Scotland, split tickets can save over 50%.

26-30 Railcards have a minimum fare of £12 before 10am on weekdays, but TVMs instead of selling an £8 undiscounted ticket will offer a £12 'discounted' ticket.

16-25 Railcards also have a minimum fare of £12 before 10am on weekdays... except in July and August. So a 25 year old gets a cheaper ticket on their morning commute in the summer, while a 26 year old doesn't.

Actually age-based railcards are valid for a fixed period at the time of purchase, so a 26-30 Railcard is actually valid until the day before your 32nd birthday.

The legislation makes it an offence to travel on a 16-25 ticket when you hold a 26-30 Railcard even though the price is the same. This is stupid, to the point that the regulator had to intervene to stop people being taken to court for criminal offences when the railway wasn't even losing money.

That's before we even get into split tickets, rovers, GroupSave, TOC-specific group discounts, rangers, regional Railcards, SuperFares, ScotRail Kids For A Quid, Club Avanti, LNER cashback, the fact that mature students can get a 16-25 railcard, Scotland NEC, Unizones, GTR money back guarantee, XC feeless Advance ticket changes, PlusBus, Nothern Duo, gold cards, RailMaster, Rail & Sail, flexipasses, GA pregnant passenger first class upgrades, SeatFrog, carnets, season tickets, flexi passes, etc etc.

Some on the forums will challenge this view and say well how would you reduce complexity without raising fares, but I'm not a fares expert. I'm an ordinary passenger with a higher than average interest in train travel, who gets asked by friends and family all the time about finding the best fares and even I struggle, so the average passenger is often getting shafted in favour of a fares system which requires a PhD to find the best value in.

If the government is serious about helping the cost of living, and the climate crisis, then reducing fares on underutilised services would make sense, and probably even generate a net positive income position. On some services the limited size of the train also puts people off - I was out and about during the Edinburgh Fringe last year staying along the Borders railway line, and ScotRail and still punting 3 carriage services on the normal schedule, when all of the platforms can accommodate 6 carriages, possibly even 7, though they tend to be 2x3 car services when they do run them. The trains were absolutely rammed, which is good in that clearly people are opting for public transport, but I was also considering driving or taking the bus because train services when you're packed in like sardines in the height of summer are not comfortable. Whether they buy/lease more rolling stock, or they temporarily rent it from a charter company or whatever, they need more of it. It's the same along the north Wales coast line during the summer when people are heading to the beaches and caravan parks for their holidays; the trains are absolutely rammed, and 1h+ journeys stood in crowds on trains with poor AC is just not very attractive, and again, I'd be considering driving.
I agree. I hate the railcard with all my passion. Why the hell do I have to pay 30% extra because I don’t use the UK railway that much. My bank account is bleeding!
 

Farigiraf

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The potential buyer has other options too. These include travelling to the same destination by rail at a different time (at a lower price because that's a time with excess capacity), or travelling by rail to a different destination instead.
I think it's fairly obvious but not everyone will have that choice? Certainly if I want to get to e.g. Leeds, because I want to see something in Leeds, then I'm not going to travel to Hull because it's cheaper. If all the trains at sensible times of day are over double what I'd expect to pay (which is between £30 and £70 most of the time for CBG-LDS, depending on luck) and the only other option is to travel at a really inconvenient time, I'll probably just not go.

Eurostar already shows us how this plays out: London to Paris, 1 week in advance (which should be a sensible time to book for a fixed-route, fairly reliable train service), midday fares are all over £180, with tickets under that either being too early to reach from Cambridge, or too late of an arrival into Paris to sensibly go any further through France. For something that is just a 2h long no-frills train service (+2h for time zones and borders), that runs nearly every hour, I'd instantly close the page and take a look at Skyscanner instead. I don't see any reason why Virgin would make it any cheaper either, by the way.

Then costs need to be reduced, but that is politically impossible especially with a Labour government.
In almost all cases you can't achieve that without making the railway worse. You can decrease subsidy effectively by investing in the right places - this includes direct revenue (through things like housing built near the railway), or indirect revenue (through reduced traffic congestion) that currently flows back into the main Treasury pot rather than the DfT. Of course it's not an easy thing to do, but the past few decades of cost cutting hasn't exactly reduced rail subsidy either.
 

Fawkes Cat

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I agree. I hate the railcard with all my passion. Why the hell do I have to pay 30% extra because I don’t use the UK railway that much. My bank account is bleeding!
Will it hurt your blood pressure too badly if I point out that if you treat the Railcard fare as being standard then you have to pay an extra 50%?
 

AM9

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So us West Yorkshireans aren't even going to be able to travel to Manchester or York for a reasonable price ?

If this were the only option available, I'd have to ask, what's the point ?
As I said, I'm not au fait with commuter flows outside the south-east, so can't say that there is a justification for reducing fares by 33% because the non -peak daytime services have many empty seats to fill. As far as fares (non-discounted) go, the south-east generally has higher fares than elsewhere, see below, I've assumed a typical Yorkshirean journey west to Manchester to be from Leeds, on an off-peak (SVR) ticket, recognising that commuting between those two centres might be bidirectional.
At 42 miles, a similar distance is Paddington to Reading and there is some bidirectional commuting flow between those two also, so that is also included for comparison:
LDS-MAN £29.70 . . . peak restrictions . . . am not before 08:29, .. pm none
PAD-RDG £37.00 . . . peak restrictions . . . am not before 10:00, .. pm not between 16:00 and 19:00
Despite the restrictions being tighter on the GWR, the fare is over 24% dearer than a journey over the same distance up north.
 

Magdalia

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Certainly if I want to get to e.g. Leeds, because I want to see something in Leeds, then I'm not going to travel to Hull because it's cheaper.
But you might decide to do something else in Hull instead of what you were thinking of doing in Leeds.

If all the trains at sensible times of day are over double what I'd expect to pay (which is between £30 and £70 most of the time for CBG-LDS, depending on luck)
It isn't luck, it is high demand. There are other people who are prepared to pay more than £70.

Eurostar already shows us how this plays out: London to Paris, 1 week in advance (which should be a sensible time to book for a fixed-route, fairly reliable train service), midday fares are all over £180
Again that's high demand. Lots of other people want to travel at the same time as you. The people prepared to pay £180 for midday travel get the tickets.
with tickets under that either being too early to reach from Cambridge, or too late of an arrival into Paris to sensibly go any further through France.
These are nevertheless options if you don't want to pay £180 for midday travel like other people. Its your choice.

It is a long while since I used Eurostar but, in my younger and fitter days, I usually travelled early from Cambridge to get 08xx Eurostar departures.

Thousands of travellers making different decisions is what balances demand with supply.
 

Farigiraf

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But you might decide to do something else in Hull instead of what you were thinking of doing in Leeds.
Or not. Not many long distance journeys are planned as a 'where do I fancy going next week' trip.

It isn't luck, it is high demand.
The majority of rail users won't know (or particularly care) why the train is expensive. It's either expensive or not. If it's out of their price range, they won't take the train. If they use the train less, they'll likely be less supportive of rail upgrades like HS2.

are other people who are prepared to pay more than £70.
As far as I'm aware, the UK is not a country where having a higher income (and therefore paying higher tax) puts you higher up the priority list for public services than others. The NHS doesn't discriminate based on how much people may be prepared to pay for their treatment either. We accept that you'll have to wait for others to get their turn first, resulting in long waiting lists, because for many people, some treatment is better than no treatment. For those that find the waiting lists unacceptable, they can go private (which is the equivalent of 1st class on our trains)
in my younger and fitter days
This is important. Not everyone has the luxury of being young and fit, and even if they do, why should we discriminate based on that? Their vote is worth just as much as any other vote. I would like to echo some of the posts in the LNER simpler fares thread, stating that it's much easier to support forcing passengers to take other, less busy services when you've already got a seat on the train you want to take. Switch the perspective and suddenly it seems outrageous.
 

Magdalia

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As far as I'm aware, the UK is not a country where having a higher income (and therefore paying higher tax) puts you higher up the priority list for public services than others.
Long distance inter city travel has not been a public service for a very long time, at least since sectorisation in the early 1980s. Eurostar has never been a public service.

The NHS doesn't discriminate based on how much people may be prepared to pay for their treatment either. We accept that you'll have to wait for others to get their turn first, resulting in long waiting lists, because for many people, some treatment is better than no treatment.
When demand exceeds supply the capacity still has to be allocated somehow, and the main alternative to price is queue.

The alternative to allocating capacity on trains to Leeds by price is a long queue at Kings Cross or a waiting list for tickets.

Not everyone has the luxury of being young and fit,
Which is why there are railcards for those that don't have that luxury.
 

yorksrob

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As I said, I'm not au fait with commuter flows outside the south-east, so can't say that there is a justification for reducing fares by 33% because the non -peak daytime services have many empty seats to fill. As far as fares (non-discounted) go, the south-east generally has higher fares than elsewhere, see below, I've assumed a typical Yorkshirean journey west to Manchester to be from Leeds, on an off-peak (SVR) ticket, recognising that commuting between those two centres might be bidirectional.
At 42 miles, a similar distance is Paddington to Reading and there is some bidirectional commuting flow between those two also, so that is also included for comparison:
LDS-MAN £29.70 . . . peak restrictions . . . am not before 08:29, .. pm none
PAD-RDG £37.00 . . . peak restrictions . . . am not before 10:00, .. pm not between 16:00 and 19:00
Despite the restrictions being tighter on the GWR, the fare is over 24% dearer than a journey over the same distance up north.

And London to Brighton has a super off peak return for £18.20. We can all pick and choose examples to suit our arguments.

For someone in West Yorkshire, a railcard that couldn't even get you to York or Manchester would be pointless.
 

Farigiraf

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Long distance inter city travel has not been a public service for a very long time, at least since sectorisation in the early 1980s. Eurostar has never been a public service.
However, the motorways are treated as a public service, which means that there's clearly some favouritism in favour of one mode. The motorways do have more capacity at the moment, but that's only due to decades straight of capacity increase (while closing railways at the same time). That favouritism is outdated and economically problematic in the 21st century, now that we see the benefits of rail usage. At least on the Eurotunnel, the Getlink car shuttle is also dynamically priced, so rail and car users can suffer together ;)

The alternative to allocating capacity on trains to Leeds by price is a long queue at Kings Cross or a waiting list for tickets.
LNER trains are not overcrowded though. The only train operator with a systemic, problematic overcrowding problem at the moment is CrossCountry, and purchasing new trains with more capacity really isn't that difficult.

So keeping things as they are right now (and slowly making things better, as capacity increases) won't result in chaos, catastrophes or long queues for trains. We're lucky there, because as loco-haulage became less common, we started shifting towards a railway that prioritises fixed, high frequency over 1 or 2 direct services to everywhere. It's still not perfect, but we're at a sort of midpoint between France and Germany, which I think is fair.

Implementing a ticketing system that's designed to price people off busy trains, not because all our trains are sardine specials (and most of those that are can be fixed with new trains), but because it's a bit inconvenient for those who do manage to get a seat to have people crowding the aisle, can't seriously be the optimal strategy that we must take or else chaos will befall our dear railways. Removing the upper fare limit on flexible travel, does make the rail ticketing system more simple - it's a simple system of discrimination, for a service that is A: the only option for some people, and B: an option we should be encouraging more people to take anyway.

Which is why there are railcards for those that don't have that luxury.
Except for the many exceptions to that rule. To name a few: Senior railcard peak time restrictions, Eurostar (and a few other tickets including rangers) not accepting railcards, and also the fact that there are many people between the ages of 40 and 60 who do not qualify for any railcard but wouldn't call themselves young and fit, either.
 
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Magdalia

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LNER trains are not overcrowded though.
That's because dynamic pricing matches demand to supply. To go back to your example of not travelling on a day when you decided that more than £70 was too expensive, then, if a £70 fare had been available, there would have been more ticket sales and the train would have been overcrowded.

purchasing new trains with more capacity really isn't that difficult.
It is difficult because the new trains have to be financed, either through borrowing or leasing.

Implementing a ticketing system that's designed to price people off busy trains, not because all our trains are sardine specials (and most of those that are can be fixed with new trains), but because it's a bit inconvenient for those who do manage to get a seat to have people crowding the aisle, can't seriously be the optimal strategy
The optimum is full but not overcrowded trains and maximum revenue. The railway does not cover its costs and needs every £ of revenue it can get.

there are many people between the ages of 40 and 60 who do not qualify for any railcard but wouldn't call themselves young and fit, either.
If they are registered disabled then they can get a railcard.
 

Bald Rick

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Eurostar already shows us how this plays out: London to Paris, 1 week in advance (which should be a sensible time to book for a fixed-route, fairly reliable train service), midday fares are all over £180,

Similar to air fares London - Paris on a like for like basis. It’s a popular market, which is why all the new entrants proposing to use HS1 are focusing on it.


The majority of rail users won't know (or particularly care) why the train is expensive. It's either expensive or not. If it's out of their price range, they won't take the train.

Maybe not, but those Eurostars will typically have similar occupation rates as the airlines on the route. And one of the reasons it is more expensive is that passengers generslly prefer it over the plane, as it is usually quicker and more comfortable. Therefore most passengers are willing to pay more compared to the plane. Hence why there are, typically, only around 330 seats a day each way between Luton* and Paris, and over 12,000 a day each way between St Pancras and Paris.

* Luton being the easiest airport to reach from St Pancras, with 8 trains an hour most of the time. Anyone in the Luton airport catachement area is much more likely to use the train, despite the cost premium.

There are around 3000 airline seats a day London - Paris, and I estimate around 30-40% of them are occupied by people taking connecting flights one end or the other.

The motorways do have more capacity at the moment, but that's only due to decades straight of capacity increase (while closing railways at the same time).

Firstly I’m not aware of any significant passenger railways closing in this country in the past 40/50 years or so.

Secondly all of the main intercity routes from London have had capacity upgrades in the past 25 years (some significantly so), and we’ve had a completely new one built, with another completely new one being built now plus a major capacity upgrade of the main line between northern cities. By my reckoning, long distance rail capacity in this country has roughly doubled in the past 25 years.

Thirdly, there hasn’t been a major addition to the strategic motorway network in England since the M1 / A1(M) extension from Leeds to Newcastle, and that was getting on for two decades ago. Sure there have been widening projects on the busier stretches of road, but the money spent on these is less than the money spent on rail upgrades, even tsking HS2 out of the equation.

The concept that government favours road investment over rail may have been true in the 60s, 70s and first half of the 80s. It has absolutely not been the case since the 1990s.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

and also the fact that there are many people between the ages of 40 and 60 who do not qualify for any railcard but wouldn't call themselves young and fit, either.

Not that many.

Essentially if you are between 30 and 60, do not travel with anyone else, are not registered disabled (or have a qualifying condition, for example wearing hearing aids), have never worked in the armed forces (for a minimum of one day), do not work for the rail industry, and do not live in the Network rail card area. My estimate is somewhere around 10% of the population, or 20% if you exclude the ‘not travelling with anyone else’ qualification.
 
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yorksrob

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Not that many.

Essentially if you are between 30 and 60, do not travel with anyone else, are not registered disabled (or have a qualifying condition, for example wearing hearing aids), have never worked in the armed forces (for a minimum of one day), do not work for the rail industry, and do not live in the Network rail card area. My estimate is somewhere around 10% of the population, or 20% if you exclude the ‘not travelling with anyone else’ qualification.

If we're such a numerically insignificant minority, why don't they get on with it and provide us with a railcard.

At this point it's beginning to feel like egregious discrimination.
 

WAO

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Not that many.

Essentially if you are between 30 and 60, do not travel with anyone else, are not registered disabled (or have a qualifying condition, for example wearing hearing aids), have never worked in the armed forces (for a minimum of one day), do not work for the rail industry, and do not live in the Network rail card area. My estimate is somewhere around 10% of the population, or 20% if you exclude the ‘not travelling with anyone else’ qualification.
Which suggests to me that railcards are volume discounts for those willing to dedicate significant amounts of their travel needs to the railway but are also price sensitive (being on the edge of the employment market).

I tend to regard mine as a sort of subscription or method of support for the passenger railway. I'd happily have a supporters' badge for my car!

I also have several friends with Silver Passes - the ultimate pensioners' bus pass!

WAO
 

Sonic1234

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Which suggests to me that railcards are volume discounts for those willing to dedicate significant amounts of their travel needs to the railway but are also price sensitive (being on the edge of the employment market).
Railcards serve a mix of purposes, which have got intertwined and confused. They are a subsidy to people travelling to college/uni/start of careers (16-17, 16-25), a bulk purchase discount (Two together, Family), a marketing tool to get people in the rail habit (16-25), good PR/politics (26-30, Forces, Veterans), a way to encourage off peak travel (Network, Senior). This is how we have a mess of different railcards all with different conditions.

I've been on services where everyone in the carriage has had a railcard. Guards take more notice of undiscounted tickets, the railcard beep when scanning tickets is the normal noise. Admittedly this was off peak/at the weekend, at commuter times it would be different. The question this gives is are non railcard holders priced out, or does the railway not meet their travel needs?

You don't need to make significant numbers of journeys for a railcard to be worth it. In my student days, the 16-25 seemed to be part of the essential student kit, even for those who probably weren't making their money back on it. The bank that offered a railcard with their student account was always the most popular.
 

Bald Rick

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Which suggests to me that railcards are volume discounts for those willing to dedicate significant amounts of their travel needs to the railway but are also price sensitive (being on the edge of the employment market).

Exactly, it is market segmentation, based loosely on that market segment’s ability (average) ability to pay.


If we're such a numerically insignificant minority, why don't they get on with it and provide us with a railcard.

Because, on average, that market segment can afford to pay more, as most are in work, and evidently don’t have kids to suck up most of their disposal income :)


I also have several friends with Silver Passes - the ultimate pensioners' bus pass!

Not quite as ultimate as a Gold pass ;)
 

yorksrob

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Because, on average, that market segment can afford to pay more, as most are in work, and evidently don’t have kids to suck up most of their disposal income :)

An extremely shaky assumption, given the increase in casual gig work, high housing costs etc. And now due to the "wonderfully successful" fares sham - sorry "trial" on LNER, we're going to be required to pay through the nose twice over. Time the railway/DfT woke up in the 21st century.

Additionally, how come a two income household who will likely have more disposable income get a railcard, whereas someone on a single income keeping a roof over their head, does not.

The omission is unjustifiable in terms of market segmentation.
 

AM9

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And London to Brighton has a super off peak return for £18.20. We can all pick and choose examples to suit our arguments.
That is a weekend only fare so no comparison to the two standard off-peak tickets that I compared. If you want to compare like for like then your London to Brighton equivalent is the Manchester Victoria to Southport offering (CDR) which is £17.50, except that unlike the Brighton fare, that is available every day, whereas the Brighton CDR ticket that does that is £23.80, - another 36%! Fares in the south-east (e.g. the Network Card area) really are generally more expensive when compared fairly.
 

yorksrob

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That is a weekend only fare so no comparison to the two standard off-peak tickets that I compared. If you want to compare like for like then your London to Brighton equivalent is the Manchester Victoria to Southport offering (CDR) which is £17.50, except that unlike the Brighton fare, that is available every day, whereas the Brighton CDR ticket that does that is £23.80, - another 36%! Fares in the south-east (e.g. the Network Card area) really are generally more expensive when compared fairly.

Why are you not comparing London to Brighton with Leeds to Manchester ?

If anything, Brighton's more like a small City than a seaside town, so that comparison is far more valid, yet the CDR is cheaper than the equivalent return in Manchester.

You're picking and choosing examples to suit your thin argument.
 

Technologist

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The whole premise of this thread is wrong, if you want to relieve an income distribution problem you achieve that by giving poor people money or by taxing them less.

Trying to do it via anything else just results in distortion of markets and inefficiencies like paying someone’s fare that they would have happily paid for themselves or having a user take a seat for frivolous purposes that would previously be used for a socially or economically more useful purpose.

Trains are not an underutilised resource where additional capacity can be created.

Ultimately rail’s best contribution to cost of living is to get cheaper. That’s either achieved by making existing operations cheaper or by putting far more passengers and trains through the same infrastructure.

I must say I’ve seen relatively little from the GBR project explaining how it will incentivise cost reduction. Though were it to do so I suspect that it would be of the cut things and apply more aggressive negotiation techniques than it would be to go look at how other industries do similar things at a fraction of the cost.
 

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