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They also use tram capabilities in the new depot so in some ways the 398s already show their benefits from day 1, like you say eventually (next year iirc) they'll be line of sight too. Crossrail is also happening (spades in the ground now) so that's another section where the 398s obviously are necessary.
Then hopefully further crossrail work (at least station ramp) and maybe Hirwaun and I think they'll justify their usage.
I believe the line between Queen Street and Cardiff Bay is planned to go over to line of sight operation even though segregated, so even without the short extension to Cardiff Central they'll still be using the tram-train functionality.
On that note, the council are quite keen on turning Lloyd George Avenue into a linear park, taking advantage of the conversion of the Bay line to a tramway to “soften” the landscaping around the tracks and make the embankment less of a barrier.
I think one issue with the 398s is that their main benefit is something that is meant to come years down the line (again, so to speak) and that only a small fraction of which has been funded so far.
Cardiff bears the memory and scars of countless projects that stalled or completely after phase 1…
The modular nature of the planning here is designed so that each phase makes subsequent phases easier and cheaper, both to plan and to make the case for… but… without them, the potential criticisms of the fleet and of the short section of street running on a cost to benefit front become louder.
It’s already described (unfairly) as a vanity project.
I really hope that this goes well and remain optimistic for the future developments that it integrates with - extension to pierhead, new Atlantic wharf… new Lloyd George avenue as an actual place rather than a weird rotating cartoon background… eventual connection to the east, and to penarth… actual “turn up and go” metro in Cardiff also serving the wider metropolitan area.
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Just to add, some of my favourite examples of these uncompleted projects have to be Tiger Bay with the gloworks building standing alone in a brownfield wasteland… and the nearby flyover to nowhere on the queens gate roundabout…
I think HS2 is a more troubled example of forward thinking being stymied by impatience.
But, yes, if ordinary trains (Flirts please) had been procured then there would have been howls of derision once Cardiff Crossrail got going requiring bespoke tram like trains !.
Have not ridden a 398 down to the Bay yet to see so myself, but something seems to be consistent with the videos I've seen and other people's comments, and that is that the Bay wires are not live yet. Some of the videos I've seen clearly show the pan down when stopped at Cardiff Bay.
If this is the case, by my understanding, the 398s are coming down from Pontypridd via Cathays, going back to Queen Street, back to the Bay and back to Pontypridd via Cathays on battery power alone until they get back to the OLE near the site of the planned Gabalfa station.
I estimate this to be around 8 miles in total of battery running. Once all the infrastructure is live the battery only requirements will be much smaller (4 miles or less), so if they are easily capable of double this distance (TFW would presumably want some margin left if they were running them in public service without the Bay wires being live) then they are not going to be having issues running out of charge if there's disruption.
Does anyone else's understanding or observations confirm this?
I can't answer the questions that you ask, and I am sorry if someone has suggested this previously, however I think this might be part of the reason they're only running them to mid day currently?
I think it is possible that the 398s are spending long enough off the wires (Catheys - Bay) currently that they are cutting it fine doing it all day.
BUT
If that is the case then why not restrict the 398s to one return down to the bay instead of two in between the longer trip under the wires to Pontypridd where they would surely charge enough ?.
Or why not bring a different 398 out for the second half of the day ?.
Also surely there is enough time anyway from Cathays to Pontypridd to charge up again ?.
SO
I wonder if it is resources :-
Is it a case of only just having enough trained staff for the one shift/session - it is after all very early days in the training regime.
Maybe even a limit on how many roving fitters TfW want out on the network rather than getting more 398 ready.
Maybe only just enough fully usable 398s while the rest are used on crew training.
These are fairly standard issues facing a brand new fleet roll out.
If that is the case then why not restrict the 398s to one return down to the bay instead of two in between the longer trip under the wires to Pontypridd where they would surely charge enough ?.
Or why not bring a different 398 out for the second half of the day ?.
Also surely there is enough time anyway from Cathays to Pontypridd to charge up again ?.
SO
I wonder if it is resources :-
Is it a case of only just having enough trained staff for the one shift/session - it is after all very early days in the training regime.
Maybe even a limit on how many roving fitters TfW want out on the network rather than getting more 398 ready.
Maybe only just enough fully usable 398s while the rest are used on crew training.
These are fairly standard issues facing a brand new fleet roll out.
It looks as if the 398 diagram tomorrow isn't due back into the depot until after 4.
Last week it looked as if they were running without a travelling fitter.
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Old and new side by side, at Queen Street on 7th July.
(Photo shows 150 208 next to a 398 in platforms 2 and 3 at Cardiff Queen Street)
I haven't heard otherwise but this is total speculation: maybe the Queen Street blockade on 25th-27th July will be another attempt at getting the Bay line energised?
I haven't heard otherwise but this is total speculation: maybe the Queen Street blockade on 25th-27th July will be another attempt at getting the Bay line energised?
It's interesting because elsewhere on Railforums I'm pretty sure that it was reported that the power did go on at the last attempt, though with some restrictions on what was allowed to run.
Maybe someone with more time than me can find the reference - it was probably on the South Wales Metro updates thread.
Yes I read that too during the last attempt, but it just seems too coincidental that it is another long Queen Street blockade (like last time) AND it doesn't look like the 398s are using OLE there like they are elsewhere...
Yes I read that too during the last attempt, but it just seems too coincidental that it is another long Queen Street blockade (like last time) AND it doesn't look like the 398s are using OLE there like they are elsewhere...
I believe some of the platforms still need to be relevelled so they are level boarding (may have already happened) and track realignment work is needed to support the additional 398 services going to the Bay. I also think the line of sight operation is needed to support all the extra 398 services going down to the Bay.
Pontypridd to the depot was ECS. The rest since it came off the depot in the morning has been in service. It's similar to the last few weeks except running later into the afternoon.
Pontypridd to the depot was ECS. The rest since it came off the depot in the morning has been in service. It's similar to the last few weeks except running later into the afternoon.
I do think though that they should be mentioning the service reductions between the Bay and Pontypridd rather than just quietly changing journey planner times.
I do think though that they should be mentioning the service reductions between the Bay and Pontypridd rather than just quietly changing journey planner times.
I seem to recall that they did previously mention a withdrawal of services between Pontypridd and the Bay and I thought that covered quite a long period. So I think technically any services that are running are additional. Rather than it being a reduction?
Sorry if I’m asking something that has been asked before. Are they sending one out a day, then taking it back in for assessments and swapping for another one, or something like that?
I seem to recall that they did previously mention a withdrawal of services between Pontypridd and the Bay and I thought that covered quite a long period. So I think technically any services that are running are additional. Rather than it being a reduction?
No, it's still a reduction even if it's not as bad as they previously threatened.
But that's not the point.
They are removing services from the regular timetable but without advance warning as a service alteration or a notice of an emergency change.
Instead the service on a given day seems to be whatever a travel planner says it is, and there's no information on how long this disruption is going to last.
In my view this is not a welcome change to how the railway works.
Should passengers really have to keep checking journey planners for a regular journey where they know the timetable, and if planning a particular journey in advance keep checking in case it's changed again?
No, it's still a reduction even if it's not as bad as they previously threatened.
But that's not the point.
They are removing services from the regular timetable but without advance warning as a service alteration or a notice of an emergency change.
Instead the service on a given day seems to be whatever a travel planner says it is, and there's no information on how long this disruption is going to last.
In my view this is not a welcome change to how the railway works.
Should passengers really have to keep checking journey planners for a regular journey where they know the timetable, and if planning a particular journey in advance keep checking in case it's changed again?
In a metro service it is frequency that is all. For example on London Underground the vast majority of travellers are unaware that there is a timetable. For me I just turn up and wait, I know roughly how long the journey will take by adding maximum wait time to actual transit time. Now when there is disruption TfL do warn of things like a reduced service level for example.
I would hope that eventually TfW in South Wales will adopt the same approach. That is assuming normal planned frequencies are frequent enough.
In a metro service it is frequency that is all. For example on London Underground the vast majority of travellers are unaware that there is a timetable. For me I just turn up and wait, I know roughly how long the journey will take by adding maximum wait time to actual transit time. Now when there is disruption TfL do warn of things like a reduced service level for example.
I would hope that eventually TfW in South Wales will adopt the same approach. That is assuming normal planned frequencies are frequent enough.
To work at that level, you would need those Metro frequencies all the way up all of the branches - Herbert Walker said over a century ago that the frequency needed to be at least every 10 minutes to get a true turn up and go. I'd suggest a nearer model would be the Metropolitan Line, which operates on that basis inside of Harrow, but where the timetable is more relevant further out as the different services lose their overlaps.
To work at that level, you would need those Metro frequencies all the way up all of the branches - Herbert Walker said over a century ago that the frequency needed to be at least every 10 minutes to get a true turn up and go. I'd suggest a nearer model would be the Metropolitan Line, which operates on that basis inside of Harrow, but where the timetable is more relevant further out as the different services lose their overlaps.
That is true. A good example you mention is the outer reaches of the Metropolitain line.
For the TAM lines I think each branch is every 15 minutes so 4 tph (trains per hour). Increasing the service by 50% would achieve the golden 10 minute frequency as 6 tph. That would however be a train every 3m 20s down to Cardiff from Pontypridd - that would be tight as far as Queen Street North Junction then hopeless. On street running from around Cathays anyone (they are 398s after all) !.
I would argue that a 15 minute frequency is fairly good. My frequent local bus is 10-12 minute frequency most of the day.
Not sure how relevant but good connections to any buses linking to the TAM lines would help. Integrated transport anybody ?.
There were plans for some street running from Cathays previously but I think that got canned when the new SU facade was built because there's no room now even for the 398s with tight curves.
The 398s do unlock other potential services though like perhaps a ponty northern chord etc. But for phase 1 the timetable matters south to abercynon/pontypridd beyond that it's not super important.
Obviously coryton and city line and much of rhymney it's all still very important. It's why I think the metro branding that's used everywhere is unfortunate.
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Speaking of integration of buses I wonder when the 398s run to central will they finally abandon the 6 bay bus.
In a metro service it is frequency that is all. For example on London Underground the vast majority of travellers are unaware that there is a timetable. For me I just turn up and wait, I know roughly how long the journey will take by adding maximum wait time to actual transit time. Now when there is disruption TfL do warn of things like a reduced service level for example.
Right - and what they have just done is quietly reduce the frequency without warning of a reduced service level.
Service between the Bay and Queen Street should be an irregular four trains per hour.
Maybe some people are happy with this as a turn-up-and-go service (I wouldn't).
But now there are some gaps of half an hour which seems a bit long for turn-up-and-go.
Especially if you have connections to somewhere.
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Interesting question. At the moment "they" would be Cardiff Bus making I think a purely commercial decision.
Not entirely clear to me at the moment which will come first though - the new 398 services or bus franchising in Cardiff.
Silver lining I guess it seems like it made it back to the depot by itself and they replaced it in time for the next north bound 398 service. Obviously not great for those further south who missed a southbound and northbound service but better than cancelling it for the rest of the day.
According to RTT it was cancelled due to a person being hit by a train, but I would expect a lot more disruption for that so unsure if it's a misreport.
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